Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

stuart lawrence

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Because too many Biblical passages show that the suffering shall be eternal in the lake of fire..
I think a problem often comes when you hinge your beliefs on the partial literal letter of scripture. The Bible must be read as a cohesive whole, and the letter contains a spiritual message within it Just focusing on the letter will mostly bring you to fall short of understanding the true message
 
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Mark Corbett

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Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Note: only a small portion of Clement's thoughtful comment is quoted here.

Your comment is a bit unfair to annihilationists and even traditionalists. It would be like me saying to a Universalist:

"The Bible does not teach that God is some wimpy Deity who just lets anyone into Heaven no matter how sinful and hardhearted they are."

The above statement is technically true, but it would be unfair because I know that few if any Universalists believe that "God is some wimpy Deity who just lets anyone into Heaven no matter how sinful and hardhearted they are." I would be arguing against an unfair distortion of Universalist views. Likewise, your statement seems to imply that someone in this conversation might believe that "Love Ominipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist".
No one here believes that.

I also do not believe that God abandons His creatures "so easily". I believe that God strives to win our hearts. He has shown great patience with people as they rebel against Him and hurt His children. He even sent His Son Jesus to live a sacrificial life of love and suffer and die to win us. That's a lot!

Yet, your comment does have a hint of truth in it in that I do not believe that God will continue contending with people indefinitely. Nor do I believe that if He did the result would be that everyone would freely choose to love Him. Here's one verse that points in the direction of God limiting the time He will strive to win people:

NIV Genesis 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."

I have explained this in more depth in the OP for a new, but related, thread here: The Universalist Story is Not Realistic

 
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Mark Corbett

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Because too many Biblical passages show that the suffering shall be eternal in the lake of fire..

Thanks for responding. It's difficult for me to reply to vague evidence like "too many Biblical passages". Perhaps we could start with one?

Here's one for you:

NIV John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus indicates that the alternative to eternal life is to "perish". That makes sense! Now, if (God forbid) I had a relative who had been captured by ISIS and the intelligence community believed they were being held and tortured, I would not say "My relative has perished". I would have hope that my relative would be rescued! But if my relative was incinerated by an ISIS bomb I would say "My relative has perished".

What I'm saying is simply that the most famous verse in the Bible appears to quite plainly support annihilationism.
 
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Chris Date

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Since no one has yet taken up the challenge I've issued twice now, I'll issue it a third time.

I'd like to ask the defenders of eternal torment here what they make of the fact that Jesus, who we evangelicals believe is our substitutionary, atoning sacrifice for sin, died in our place.

Substitutionary, atoning, sacrificial death is worked into the warp and woof of salvation history from the beginning, from the garments of skin made for Adam and Eve from the first sacrificial animal death, to the Passover lamb that died in the place of the first-born of the families who placed its blood on their doorposts, to the animal sacrifices of the Mosaic covenant. This is why Jesus, as their typological fulfillment, is so consistently said to have died in the place of sinners, biblical authors using the Greek prepositions ἀντί and ὑπ́ερ to teach that Jesus literally took our place and suffered what we deserved when he died (e.g., Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45; 1 Timothy 2:6; 2 Corinthians 5:14; John 11:50-52).

It seems eminently reasonable, then, that the penal consequences of sin, borne by Jesus on the cross as a substitute in the place of sinners, is the sort of death he suffered. Yet that sort of death—the privation of embodied life—is the very sort that the finally impenitent in hell will never suffer, according to the doctrine of eternal torment. And so its defenders inadvertently end up denying the substitutionary nature of Christ's death, for whereas he died, the risen wicked will not.

Conservative evangelicals are ordinarily adamant that it is heresy to deny the substitutionary death of Christ, including Bruce Ware, John Piper, and Chuck Colson. Meanwhile, otherwise stellar, thoughtful exegetes and theologians end up inadvertently denying this evangelical essential, including Wayne Grudem. In his Systematic Theology, he writes, "When Jesus knew that he had paid the full penalty for our sin, he said, ‘It is finished’ (John 19:30).” Grudem's use of the perfect-tense "had paid" demonstrates that in his view, Christ suffered the complete penalty for sin, the equivalent of the eternity of torment he thinks Christ's people deserved, and then he died. So his death actually isn't substitutionary in this view; only his pain is.

Can any defender of eternal torment here simultaneously affirm the substitutionary nature of Jesus' physical death and the doctrine of eternal torment for the physically risen, immortal wicked in hell?
 
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stuart lawrence

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Since no one has yet taken up the challenge I've issued twice now, I'll issue it a third time.

I'd like to ask the defenders of eternal torment here what they make of the fact that Jesus, who we evangelicals believe is our substitutionary, atoning sacrifice for sin, died in our place.

Substitutionary, atoning, sacrificial death is worked into the warp and woof of salvation history from the beginning, from the garments of skin made for Adam and Eve from the first sacrificial animal death, to the Passover lamb that died in the place of the first-born of the families who placed its blood on their doorposts, to the animal sacrifices of the Mosaic covenant. This is why Jesus, as their typological fulfillment, is so consistently said to have died in the place of sinners, biblical authors using the Greek prepositions ἀντί and ὑπ́ερ to teach that Jesus literally took our place and suffered what we deserved when he died (e.g., Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45; 1 Timothy 2:6; 2 Corinthians 5:14; John 11:50-52).

It seems eminently reasonable, then, that the penal consequences of sin, borne by Jesus on the cross as a substitute in the place of sinners, is the sort of death he suffered. Yet that sort of death—the privation of embodied life—is the very sort that the finally impenitent in hell will never suffer, according to the doctrine of eternal torment. And so its defenders inadvertently end up denying the substitutionary nature of Christ's death, for whereas he died, the risen wicked will not.

Conservative evangelicals are ordinarily adamant that it is heresy to deny the substitutionary death of Christ, including Bruce Ware, John Piper, and Chuck Colson. Meanwhile, otherwise stellar, thoughtful exegetes and theologians end up inadvertently denying this evangelical essential, including Wayne Grudem. In his Systematic Theology, he writes, "When Jesus knew that he had paid the full penalty for our sin, he said, ‘It is finished’ (John 19:30).” Grudem's use of the perfect-tense "had paid" demonstrates that in his view, Christ suffered the complete penalty for sin, the equivalent of the eternity of torment he thinks Christ's people deserved, and then he died. So his death actually isn't substitutionary in this view; only his pain is.

Can any defender of eternal torment here simultaneously affirm the substitutionary nature of Jesus' physical death and the doctrine of eternal torment for the physically risen, immortal wicked in hell?
Since no one has yet taken up the challenge I've issued twice now, I'll issue it a third time.

I'd like to ask the defenders of eternal torment here what they make of the fact that Jesus, who we evangelicals believe is our substitutionary, atoning sacrifice for sin, died in our place.

Substitutionary, atoning, sacrificial death is worked into the warp and woof of salvation history from the beginning, from the garments of skin made for Adam and Eve from the first sacrificial animal death, to the Passover lamb that died in the place of the first-born of the families who placed its blood on their doorposts, to the animal sacrifices of the Mosaic covenant. This is why Jesus, as their typological fulfillment, is so consistently said to have died in the place of sinners, biblical authors using the Greek prepositions ἀντί and ὑπ́ερ to teach that Jesus literally took our place and suffered what we deserved when he died (e.g., Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45; 1 Timothy 2:6; 2 Corinthians 5:14; John 11:50-52).

It seems eminently reasonable, then, that the penal consequences of sin, borne by Jesus on the cross as a substitute in the place of sinners, is the sort of death he suffered. Yet that sort of death—the privation of embodied life—is the very sort that the finally impenitent in hell will never suffer, according to the doctrine of eternal torment. And so its defenders inadvertently end up denying the substitutionary nature of Christ's death, for whereas he died, the risen wicked will not.

Conservative evangelicals are ordinarily adamant that it is heresy to deny the substitutionary death of Christ, including Bruce Ware, John Piper, and Chuck Colson. Meanwhile, otherwise stellar, thoughtful exegetes and theologians end up inadvertently denying this evangelical essential, including Wayne Grudem. In his Systematic Theology, he writes, "When Jesus knew that he had paid the full penalty for our sin, he said, ‘It is finished’ (John 19:30).” Grudem's use of the perfect-tense "had paid" demonstrates that in his view, Christ suffered the complete penalty for sin, the equivalent of the eternity of torment he thinks Christ's people deserved, and then he died. So his death actually isn't substitutionary in this view; only his pain is.

Can any defender of eternal torment here simultaneously affirm the substitutionary nature of Jesus' physical death and the doctrine of eternal torment for the physically risen, immortal wicked in hell?
I'm curious. Which sins do you believe Jesus atoned for at Calvary? Past sins, or all your sins?
 
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Chris Date

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I'm curious. Which sins do you believe Jesus atoned for at Calvary? Past sins, or all your sins?

Stuart, you said earlier not to interact with you if I don't want to be treated disrespectfully and uncharitably. I'd rather not be, so unless you want to offer an irenic response to my challenge from the atonement, I'll pass on answering your question. Thanks.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Stuart, you said earlier not to interact with you if I don't want to be treated disrespectfully and uncharitably. I'd rather not be, so unless you want to offer an irenic response to my challenge from the atonement, I'll pass on answering your question. Thanks.
The reason I asked, is because I was raised conservative evangelical. So I understand what that entails very well.
And I did not say don't interact with me if you don't want to be treated disrespectfully and uncharatibly. Please quote my words, don't bear false witness
 
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he-man

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Hi again @Mark Corbett / @Chris Date, just another quick question concerning Rev 19-20.

Revelation 19
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Chapter 20

Satan Bound

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Satan Freed, Doomed

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So, the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire while Satan is bound for 1,000 years. Then he is freed, starts the Battle of Armageddon and loses it, then he joins the beast and the false prophet in the Lake of Fire (where they have already been suffering for 1,000+ years). The thing is, we come right back to the Biblical fact that they, the beast and the false prophet ALONG with the devil (who has just joined them), will be tormented "day and night" ... "forever and ever". That really sounds like the church got it right, the length of their "extended stay" that is :preach:

I have one final question tonight, but I'll leave it for my next post.

Yours and His,
David
διαβολος = a Hebrew word meaning adversary, enemy, the beast= The Kings and their armies. The false prophets = the priests and their followers. 2Thess 1:9 says they shall be destroyed eternally. Destruction from the Hebrew shadad which is the BDB defnation H7703 destroy devastate, Nipha to be utterly ruined.
Der Alter fails to respond to that statement and wishes it would go away by ignoring the post I made in response to his gehenna definitions while he fails to recognize BDB.
 
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Ronald

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The LOF is second death. When that death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) then God will become "All in all" (v.28) including everyone who was ever in Adam (v.22), i.e. universal salvation.

Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and those that are upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, into the ages of ages.(Rev.5:13)


As in Adam all die
No the LOF is not only the second death, it is the first death as well.
Rev 19:20 tells us that at the end of the Great Tribulation, the beast and the false prophet were both "thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur." This happened prior to the Millennial Kingdom. Then after the 1000 years, those who rebelled against God, the Devil and his demons were cast into the LOF and destroyed. So apparently the Lake appears twice, the earth is opened up and forms a lava lake or it is a lake within the center of the earth that remains until a new earth is created. ??? Not absolutely sure, just think it's more of the a temporal hell on earth, then it is healed for 1000 years , then totally burned in the end.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Since no one has yet taken up the challenge I've issued twice now, I'll issue it a third time.

I'd like to ask the defenders of eternal torment here what they make of the fact that Jesus, who we evangelicals believe is our substitutionary, atoning sacrifice for sin, died in our place.

Substitutionary, atoning, sacrificial death is worked into the warp and woof of salvation history from the beginning, from the garments of skin made for Adam and Eve from the first sacrificial animal death, to the Passover lamb that died in the place of the first-born of the families who placed its blood on their doorposts, to the animal sacrifices of the Mosaic covenant. This is why Jesus, as their typological fulfillment, is so consistently said to have died in the place of sinners, biblical authors using the Greek prepositions ἀντί and ὑπ́ερ to teach that Jesus literally took our place and suffered what we deserved when he died (e.g., Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45; 1 Timothy 2:6; 2 Corinthians 5:14; John 11:50-52).

It seems eminently reasonable, then, that the penal consequences of sin, borne by Jesus on the cross as a substitute in the place of sinners, is the sort of death he suffered. Yet that sort of death—the privation of embodied life—is the very sort that the finally impenitent in hell will never suffer, according to the doctrine of eternal torment. And so its defenders inadvertently end up denying the substitutionary nature of Christ's death, for whereas he died, the risen wicked will not.

Conservative evangelicals are ordinarily adamant that it is heresy to deny the substitutionary death of Christ, including Bruce Ware, John Piper, and Chuck Colson. Meanwhile, otherwise stellar, thoughtful exegetes and theologians end up inadvertently denying this evangelical essential, including Wayne Grudem. In his Systematic Theology, he writes, "When Jesus knew that he had paid the full penalty for our sin, he said, ‘It is finished’ (John 19:30).” Grudem's use of the perfect-tense "had paid" demonstrates that in his view, Christ suffered the complete penalty for sin, the equivalent of the eternity of torment he thinks Christ's people deserved, and then he died. So his death actually isn't substitutionary in this view; only his pain is.

Can any defender of eternal torment here simultaneously affirm the substitutionary nature of Jesus' physical death and the doctrine of eternal torment for the physically risen, immortal wicked in hell?
Well speaking honestly, as you said I'm welcome to respond. The evangelical conservatives i grew up with, basically believed Jesus was a full atonement of only past sins. They tended to believe you have a saviour from sin as long as you don't commit sin. Not sure how that works.
When you get saved God will accept you as you are, then you get a certain amount of time to shape up/ reach a certain level of holiness. If you don't succeed, your salvation is at risk.
I wouldn't view that as believing jesus was a full atonement for sin.
 
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Chris Date

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Well speaking honestly, as you said I'm welcome to respond. The evangelical conservatives i grew up with, basically believed Jesus was a full atonement of only past sins. They tended to believe you have a saviour from sin as long as you don't commit sin. Not sure how that works.
When you get saved God will accept you as you are, then you get a certain amount of time to shape up/ reach a certain level of holiness. If you don't succeed, your salvation is at risk.
I wouldn't view that as believing jesus was a full atonement for sin.

Thanks for the irenic reply to my post. However, it does not seem to me to be an answer to my challenge. Can you help me understand how this explains how Jesus' physical demise can be said to be substitutionary if the resurrected lost will never physically die?
 
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stuart lawrence

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Thanks for the irenic reply to my post. However, it does not seem to me to be an answer to my challenge. Can you help me understand how this explains how Jesus' physical demise can be said to be substitutionary if the resurrected lost will never physically die?
To be honest, I don't understand the relevance of your post, so I think you better wait for someone to respond who does.
But if evangelicals have the views I described, in my view they cannot in truth believe Jesus was a full atonement for sin. So that would make the post null and void anyway wouldn't it?
 
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Chris Date

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To be honest, I don't understand the relevance of your post, so I think you better wait for someone to respond who does.
But if evangelicals have the views I described, in my view they cannot in truth believe Jesus was a full atonement for sin. So that would make the post null and void anyway wouldn't it?

I've never met an evangelical who believes that, and it's not the historic, orthodox understanding of the atonement. So yes, my challenge may not apply to such a professing Christian, but I think such a one ought to do more careful study.
 
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stuart lawrence

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I've never met an evangelical who believes that, and it's not the historic, orthodox understanding of the atonement. So yes, my challenge may not apply to such a professing Christian, but I think such a one ought to do more careful study.
Does every evangelical you know believe Jesus died for, past, present and future sins? And was therefore a full atonement for sin
 
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Chris Date

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Does every evangelical you know believe Jesus died for, past, present and future sins? And was therefore a full atonement for sin

Yes. Or to be extremely precise, every evangelical I know, and who has shared his or her understanding of the atonement with me (or has had it published, etc.), believes that.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Yes. Or to be extremely precise, every evangelical I know, and who has shared his or her understanding of the atonement with me (or has had it published, etc.), believes that.
Evangelical conservatives arent noted for believing that in reality. Maybe you are part of an offshoot as it were
 
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Chris Date

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Evangelical conservatives arent noted for believing that in reality. Maybe you are part of an offshoot as it were

Perhaps. Or perhaps you're mistaken about what conservative evangelicals generally believe. Wayne Grudem, for example, writes that as a result of the atonement, God "declares that we have no penalty to pay for sin, including past, present, and future sins." (Systematic Theology) John MacArthur likewise writes, "In Christ we have infinite forgiveness for every sin—past, present, and future." (Drawing Near—Daily Readings for a Deeper Faith) Charles Hodge, too: the believer "is treated as someone for all whose sins—past, present, and future—an infinite satisfaction has been made." (2 Corinthians) Walter Elwell, as well: "Does not Christ's sacrifice wipe out for the believer the guilt of all sins--past, present, and future?" (Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology) Lewis Sperry Chafer, too: "salvation is complete and extends to all sins—past, present, and future" (Systematic Theology) Norman Geisler and Frank Turek: Christ accepted "all of the real wrath of the Father for all of mankind’s past, present, and future sins" (I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist)

In any event, I'll let someone else respond to my challenge. Thanks.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Perhaps. Or perhaps you're mistaken about what conservative evangelicals generally believe.

In any event, I'll let someone else respond to my challenge. Thanks.
I doubt I'm mistaken, I spent many years as part of it.
I believed in the literal lake if fire then too.
Thought God would cast me into it due to my imperfections.
I think you may have got over exuberant about your challenge, easily done
 
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