Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

[William Tanksley Jr]

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

This doesn't say that Christ's reign ends; it says that Christ rules by forcing his enemies under His feet until He hands the kingdom over to God. The Bible specifically says that Jesus' kingdom will have no end, Luke 1:33. This is one of many evidences that /eis ton aionas/ actually does mean "forever" in normal use. In fact, it means that even in secular documents; Plato uses it as such.

God will be all in all, and everything will be submitted to God; but you missed that Christ reaches this stage by destroying all authorities, including death. In Hebrews 10-12, the author explains that we must remain faithful because we want to be part of the things that, in the judgment, will remain, while everything else will be "shaken" and removed. The warning is potent: remain faithful to the church, which is Christ's body, because everything else will be destroyed utterly.

Universalism misses this, because like eternal torment they assume that the punishment for sin is life in torment, and humans never completely die. But this shows that the author of Hebrews is warning that we not become part of this doomed cosmos, but stay in the kingdom of the beloved son.

 

[stuart lawrence]

You're replying to the post in which I directly told you who I'm talking to. In spite of your rudeness I'm also interested in your thoughts and views. I've been studying the topic of hell for about 5 years now, and I'm interested in the discussion.



Your total retreat from all of the passages explicitly discussing the impossibility of living without God had given me the impression that you'd also disavowed your original claims. I accept your correction about your beliefs, but I note that I've actually shown directly that the wicked could not possibly live, move, or have their being apart from God (and so on in many other terms).



I'm glad you admitted this. In fact, you have only one verse, which explains why any attempt to discuss your one verse is met with scorn, snideness, and dismissal.

//Outside (the city the new heaven, the new Jerusalem) are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolators and everyone who loves and practices falsehood Rev22:15//



You have yet to reply to one single paragraph of my discussion of this verse. You believe this passage is describing people sinning outside of the New Jerusalem; but you ignore that this passage is at the same time as the previous verse, in which people are washing their robes to gain the right to enter (which means they too are outside). You ignore that this passage is being spoken as an exhortation to John's readers after John's vision ended in Rev 22:6, and so this is NOT at the point "it's all over."



The clearly written word nowhere says that the wicked will be separated from God. Not even your only remaining prooftext actually says that.

All you _have_ is the fact that this passage says "outside"; everything else about this passage makes it perfectly clear that it's talking about the present life of the wicked and the righteous, not about their final destiny -- except that the righteous will eventually (after the city descends) have the right to eat from the Tree of Life, which means that, unlike sinful Adam, they will live forever. This "living forever" is not possible without eating from the tree of life, as Genesis 3:22 proves.

You are not here to try and lead others to see spiritual truth out of love and concern for them, that is not your primary motive. That is obvious from your above post. it's all about trying to win a debate before men isn't it, that's all. Trying desperatley to convince the bystanders you triumphed. It's hard to learn spiritual truth when we have that attitude
I will leave you with the last word, you obviously need it a lot more than I do.
BTW
Most who come to theological debates do come here to serve their flesh, though they convince themselves otherwise.
As Jeremiah wrote:
The heart is deceitful

 

[stuart lawrence]

You're replying to the post in which I directly told you who I'm talking to. In spite of your rudeness I'm also interested in your thoughts and views. I've been studying the topic of hell for about 5 years now, and I'm interested in the discussion.



Your total retreat from all of the passages explicitly discussing the impossibility of living without God had given me the impression that you'd also disavowed your original claims. I accept your correction about your beliefs, but I note that I've actually shown directly that the wicked could not possibly live, move, or have their being apart from God (and so on in many other terms).



I'm glad you admitted this. In fact, you have only one verse, which explains why any attempt to discuss your one verse is met with scorn, snideness, and dismissal.

//Outside (the city the new heaven, the new Jerusalem) are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolators and everyone who loves and practices falsehood Rev22:15//



You have yet to reply to one single paragraph of my discussion of this verse. You believe this passage is describing people sinning outside of the New Jerusalem; but you ignore that this passage is at the same time as the previous verse, in which people are washing their robes to gain the right to enter (which means they too are outside). You ignore that this passage is being spoken as an exhortation to John's readers after John's vision ended in Rev 22:6, and so this is NOT at the point "it's all over."



The clearly written word nowhere says that the wicked will be separated from God. Not even your only remaining prooftext actually says that.

All you _have_ is the fact that this passage says "outside"; everything else about this passage makes it perfectly clear that it's talking about the present life of the wicked and the righteous, not about their final destiny -- except that the righteous will eventually (after the city descends) have the right to eat from the Tree of Life, which means that, unlike sinful Adam, they will live forever. This "living forever" is not possible without eating from the tree of life, as Genesis 3:22 proves.

Here is an honest observation.
The average pew sitter has studied theology to far less an extent than the average internet user. Indeed, many have done no more than read a chapter of their Bible a day. Whereas many on the internet have consumed themselves with theological learning.
However, it is the average pew sitter who errs far less in true doctrine than the average internet user. And the average pew sitter who understands more in their heart of what they most need to know
And in nine years on the internet, I only found one person who continually quoted the Greek, who understood the message of grace Paul preached. Most who rely on it don't. They put their reliance to learn in the wrong place

 

[Mark Corbett]

I don't have an opinion on Parry's perspective re what occurs in the LOF. As you said there are different viewpoints on how that plays out in universalist thought. Early Church Father, Origen, for example, spoke of the possibility of it taking many ages before the wicked in the LOF were finally saved. I prefer not to speculate on things that Scripture is silent about or not clear on. Another UR viewpoint quite different from that of Parry's re the LOF is the following where the wicked in the LOF are temporarily annihilated before being raised "in Christ": As in Adam all die

Clement, thanks for taking the time to share this. I think I am now better understanding your view.

You say that you don't have a specific view on what happens in the lake of fire (LOF). I appreciate the attitude that we should not speculate on things Scripture is silent on. I don't think Scripture is silent on what happens in the LOF. Also, while you are understandably not committed to a specific view of what happens in the LOF, you do seem to be convinced that there is one thing that will NOT happen. You seem to be fairly certain that the unrighteous will not be permanently destroyed. You do not believe destruction is the END of the unrighteous. Yet, Paul says it is:

ESV Philippians 3:19a Their end is destruction

 

[GUANO]

The concept of an eternal soul was never something that the Hebrews or other Semitic cultures believed in. Even the more primitive concept of Hades in Greece, say, before 300AD was closer to that of the idea of Sheol, a deific and mysterious principle rather than any kind of literal place. The Greeks and Babylonians were not as superstitious as many seem to think they were. Greek, Roman, and Sumerian deamology evolved into present day psychology. Hades is the 'place' in our minds where we hold evildoers (and ourselves) in contempt—it is used as a symbol in ritual, ceremony, and theater to convey higher concepts such as a 'fall from grace' or a "burning conscience" but there are always those who just literally run with it.

The main issue is that most people look at words such as "Hell" and they immediately subscribe to a "Dark Ages" definition from 1000AD rather than attempt to actually understand what the Greeks were talking about in 300 BC. We are only just now (starting in the 1920's) catching up to their understanding of psychology.

The Bible clearly lays out over and over that death is a real thing and whenever I hear people telling me it isn't, i just think back to that snake in the garden: "No, you won't surely die! You'll go into this whole new state of life and experience!"... I'm not buyin' it, though hey, I don't know.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The concept of an eternal soul was never something that the Hebrews or other Semitic cultures believed in. Even the more primitive concept of Hades in Greece, say, before 300AD was closer to that of the idea of Sheol, a deific and mysterious principle rather than any kind of literal place. The Greeks and Babylonians were not as superstitious as many seem to think they were. Greek, Roman, and Sumerian deamology evolved into present day psychology. Hades is the 'place' in our minds where we hold evildoers (and ourselves) in contempt—it is used as a symbol in ritual, ceremony, and theater to convey higher concepts such as a 'fall from grace' or a "burning conscience" but there are always those who just literally run with it.

The main issue is that most people look at words such as "Hell" and they immediately subscribe to a "Dark Ages" definition from 1000AD rather than attempt to actually understand what the Greeks were talking about in 300 BC. We are only just now (starting in the 1920's) catching up to their understanding of psychology.

The Bible clearly lays out over and over that death is a real thing and whenever I hear people telling me it isn't, i just think back to that snake in the garden: "No, you won't surely die! You'll go into this whole new state of life and experience!"... I'm not buyin' it, though hey, I don't know.

But they didn't die by eating the apple did they. They went into a whole new state of life and experience

 

[Mark Corbett]

Hi Mark (and @Chris Date too ), while "eventually annihilated" solves a lot of problems, it only does so if it's true, yes

I realize you can argue for an extended stay (so to speak) in the Lake of Fire (that, in fact, is exactly what Christian orthodoxy has always said is true, an "extended stay" w/o end), but where does the Bible tell us that the reprobate is judged, condemned, thrown into the Lake of Fire, and then annihilated sometime later?

In fact, how would that work?? Isn't THAT the very thing you are arguing against where the Lake of Fire is concerned, that those who go there are annihilated/burned up upon entering there?

So your question is related to how being thrown into the lake of fire can allow for different amounts of punishment for different people if people are burned upon entering.

Great question!

I do believe that some aspect punishment will be proportional to sin in some way and thus not be identical to all. I admit I do not understand the details of how this will work. I don't think the Bible gives those details. However, I can give two possibilities which work with annihilationism:

Any conscious suffering might take place before the unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire.

and/or

Although they are burned to ashes in the lake of fire, this might not happen in an instant. Some might remain conscious longer than others.

 

[stuart lawrence]

So your question is related to how being thrown into the lake of fire can allow for different amounts of punishment for different people if people are burned upon entering.

Great question!

I do believe that some aspect punishment will be proportional to sin in some way and thus not be identical to all. I admit I do not understand the details of how this will work. I don't think the Bible gives those details. However, I can give two possibilities which work with annihilationism:

Any conscious suffering might take place before the unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire.

and/or

Although they are burned to ashes in the lake of fire, this might not happen in an instant. Some might remain conscious longer than others.

Possibly some will be given limited fire resistant vests to wear, to keep them alive a while longer before they finally succumb to the flames

 

[Mark Corbett]

Here's one more question (if you don't mind). Death results from sin, but we are "spotted" lambs who can never make restitution for our sins on the basis of our deaths alone (only the Spotless Lamb Himself can do that on our behalf). So, if the reprobate is annihilated in the Lake of Fire, who will pay the debt they still owe to God?

I don't mind at all.

I might be wrong (wouldn't be the first time!), but I can't think of anywhere that the Bible says that it is impossible for a person to pay for their sins, only that it is impossible for them to pay for their own sins and live to tell about it!

The passage that came to my mind when I read your question is this one:

Psalm 49: 7 No one can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for them--
8 the ransom for a life is costly, no payment is ever enough--
9 so that they should live on forever and not see decay.

This passage seems to support annihilationism. The result of not being able to redeem one's life is that they don't "live on forever and not see decay". (Praise God, you and I have a Redeemer!!!)

But there is also a philosophical problem here for eternal conscious torment. I don't emphasize philosophical arguments as much as exegetical ones, but I think they have a place if used humbly. Here's the problem:

God promises that He will repay people for their sins:

NIV Romans 2:6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done."

But if eternal conscious torment is required to pay for sins (as opposed to some finite suffering followed by annihilation - with death itself being the MAIN punishment), then even 10 trillion years from now God will not have repaid people for their sins. In fact, God will NEVER complete His promise to repay the unrighteous, because more payment (infinitely more, in fact) will always be due.

Grace and Peace, Mark

 

[Mark Corbett]

The Good News is not very effective apart from the "bad news", is it, and the bad news of "annihilation" just doesn't sound that bad to many.

Although some may ignore it, suppress it, or try to medicate it away, people do fear death. Although my experience indicates this is true, more importantly the Bible teaches it:

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death-- that is, the devil--
15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

Not only do people fear death, but their God given conscious, while it may be hardened, ignored, and suppressed, tells them that death is precisely what they deserve:

NIV Romans 1:32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[Darren J. Clark]

Possibly some will be given limited fire resistant vests to wear, to keep them alive a while longer before they finally succumb to the flames

I can't tell if you are purely joking or that is a snarky comment (or a bit of both). Either way, I think it disrespects Mark Corbett, who is clearly trying to build bridges via irenic discussion.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I can't tell if you are purely joking or that is a snarky comment (or a bit of both). Either way, I think it disrespects Mark Corbett, who is clearly trying to build bridges via irenic discussion.

Just trying to offer a possibility as to how his theory might work out

 

[Mark Corbett]

I obviously think this topic (the final fate of the unrighteous) is very important or I wouldn't be discussing it. But it's important to balance thinking about the nature of Hell with other truths. Also, while engaging in discussion and debate about something we as Christians don't all agree on can help us learn, it might be worth it to take a break and think about something we do agree on. So if you want to take a short devotional break from debate on Hell, check out my very first Opening Post here at Christian forums (then come back and we can keep talking about Hell):

Sonflowers and Sonpeople

 

[ClementofA]

Clement, thanks for taking the time to share this. I think I am now better understanding your view.

You say that you don't have a specific view on what happens in the lake of fire (LOF). I appreciate the attitude that we should not speculate on things Scripture is silent on. I don't think Scripture is silent on what happens in the LOF. Also, while you are understandably not committed to a specific view of what happens in the LOF, you do seem to be convinced that there is one thing that will NOT happen. You seem to be fairly certain that the unrighteous will not be permanently destroyed. You do not believe destruction is the END of the unrighteous. Yet, Paul says it is:

ESV Philippians 3:19a Their end is destruction

Clearly you have been busy answering many posts in this & other recently opened discussions. So it would have been easy to miss something. However I did already address this verse in a post to you earlier in this thread, as well as a few other subjects in response to your comments, as follows:

Phil. 3:19...post #220, page 11

Matt.25:46...post #215, page 11

apollumi...post #221, page 12

ESV Philippians 3:19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.

This is easily harmonized with the Scriptural teaching of universalism, the salvation of all:

"So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth." (Gen.6:13)

The "end" of all people was "destruction" by God. This already happened. Yet they are not annihilated forever. And they will be resurrected. Their "end" was only a temporary end or result or outcome. Not final destiny.

Likewise with Phil.3:19.

The earth was destroyed not endlessly annihilated.

Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; 10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil.2:9-11)

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[stuart lawrence]

Mind you, the belief God will make you consciously suffer, before finishing the job off by burning you to ashes in a terrifying lake of fire, is closer in its essence of belief to the fundamentalist/ evangelical churches I was raised in

 

[ClementofA]

This doesn't say that Christ's reign ends; it says that Christ rules by forcing his enemies under His feet until He hands the kingdom over to God. The Bible specifically says that Jesus' kingdom will have no end, Luke 1:33. This is one of many evidences that /eis ton aionas/ actually does mean "forever" in normal use. In fact, it means that even in secular documents; Plato uses it as such.

Christ's reign ends:

1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Therefore He reigns, not forever, but for the eons:

Luke 1:33 He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons.

Therefore "for the eons" is not eternal, but temporary & has an end.

Christ gives up the kingdom to God:

1 Corinthians 15:24a Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father

What is "of" His kingdom [that is, the fruits of it] shall have no end:

Luke 1:33 and of his kingdom there shall be no end

Eventually all, including Christ, become subject to God:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all things shall be subject unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him

The result of this is God becoming "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28), referring to universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all things shall be subject unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

"To say that "all in all" signifies "the manifestation of God's supremacy"...is very far indeed from the truth...When we say "Christ is my all," what do we mean? That He is our Lord? Yes, and our Saviour and Friend and our Lover, our Wisdom and our Righteousness, and our Holiness--He is everything to us!...And that is just what God wishes to be and what He will be!...Will He be this only in some? No! He will be All in all!...we have said that when the last enemy [death] is abolished, then the Son abdicates and God becomes All in all. If there were still enmity we might imagine God being over all, but with all enmity gone, it is easy to see how He can become All in all...The "kingdom" is given up to the Father, after all sovereignty and authority and power have been abrogated. What kind of a "supremacy" will God "fully manifest" which has no power, no authority, no sovereignty? Thank God, all these elements, which characterized government during the eons, will be utterly unnecessary when the Son of God is finished with His "mediatorial" work. Instead of God's supremacy being fully manifested at that time, it will be entirely absent, and God, as Father, will guide His family by the sweet constraint of love."

1 Cor.15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (CLV)

God will be all in all, and everything will be submitted to God; but you missed that Christ reaches this stage by destroying all authorities, including death.

The abolishing of death means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15)

9 And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name. (Rev.14:9-11)

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev.19:20)

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- into the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10)

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5)

The verses above indicate Christ & the saints shall be reigning "into the ages of the ages", including the millenial age & the age when the lake of fire (= the 2nd death) is abolished. But 1 Cor.15:25 says Christ's reign is UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet. Since He is still reigning at the time of Revelation 20-22, all enemies are not yet under His feet. So neither is God yet "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28) nor is death [e.g. 2nd death] abolished yet.

So death is not abolished (1 Cor.15:26), since that is associated with the end of Christ's reign (v.25) & will not happen till He quits reigning. Also those humans who died a second death in the lake of fire, which is the second death, are still dead, so death is not yet abolished (v.26). As long as the second death remains & is not abolished, death is not abolished as per v.26.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

In Revelation 22:2 we also have leaves that are for the healing of the nations. Who at this time would need healing?

Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and those that are upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, into the ages of ages.(Rev.5:13)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Darren J. Clark]

Just trying to offer a possibility as to how his theory might work out

Come on. Be serious. You might as well say being in hell fire for eternity happens because they are wearing fire proof vests. How does your comment contribute to the discussion Mark was having?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Come on. Be serious. You might as well say being in hell fire for eternity happens because they are wearing fire proof vests. How does your comment contribute to the discussion Mark was having?

He said some may burn in the lake of fire longer than others, depending on sin committed, before they turn to ashes. They will remain conscious in the lake of fire longer than others depending on their degree of sin
Just offered up my practical example of how that could happen

 

[stuart lawrence]

.

 

[Adstar]

Ok. Why do you totally reject my interpretation of the second death?

Because too many Biblical passages show that the suffering shall be eternal in the lake of fire..