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Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Der Alte

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For the exact same reason people respond with fear when this reality is explained to them now. They fear ceasing to exist.
The TRUTH that this will result in them returning to the dust, or being worm food, or being ashes, which BECOMES dust/worm food, is merely an accurate depiction of the reality of death, it is the knowledge that they will cease to exist, by burning to death, that causes the fear
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Does not really address my question does it? I think I can safely say that every rational person knows they are going to die. There is nothing anyone can do to prevent their physical death. My question was if death is the final end how would dead people know or be concerned what happened to their bodies after they are dead?
When I remind people of the SOURCE for their notion of NON conditional immortality, (which is Satan's original lie; "thou shalt NOT surely die")... they stubbornly cling to the belief any way!!
I have no idea what you mean by "non conditional immortality" but I can assure that nothing I believe originates in any lie by Satan! Did you even read my post?
That depends. There were SEVERAL different sets of belief regarding death in Israel when Jesus quoted Isaiah. Those that had swallowed the Greek philosophical influences around them, didn't even believe in resurrection! Those that had stayed true to the OT teachings, understood his quote exactly like I do.
Someone saying essentially "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" doesn't really mean anything. Every heterodox religious group around makes the same claim, JW, LDS, UPCI, OP, INC, WWCG and many others. Yes there were different beliefs among the Jews one of those beliefs was in a place of eternal fiery punishment for the wicked which the Jews called both Gehinnom and sheol.
No, that's merely what SOME Jews TODAY believe.
Did you even read my post? I didn't quote modern Jews I quoted the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, all of which quoted from ancient writings
 
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stuart lawrence

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I will jump in here if I may. The case for Evangelical Conditionalism/annihilationism doesn't hang on the idea that "death" involves a ceasing to exists. Sounds strange, I know. It is more accurate to say that just as the death of the body is the ending of life resulting in the inability of that body to maintain consciousness so the destruction of the body and soul by God (Matt 10:28) is the ending of life of the whole person so that there is the inability to maintain consciousness in hell. That is how we read the parallelism in Matt 10:28. Yes, it can be argued that just as the remains of the body will decompose implying a nothingness (maybe) but t our case doesn't rest on that issue. So when I see many a good folk trying to show how the soul can't cease to exist or the "destruction" language doesn't mean "annihilation" it makes me think that the point has been missed because we have miscommunicated.

Also, you keep pointing to Rom 7:9. Took me a while to figure out that it is in verse 10 that you are referring to and not verse 9 (they need to be taken together). I agree in the "spiritual" dimension is in view here but so what? Identifying variegated meanings in unrelated contexts is half the job. One still needs to look at each reference to death in context and there are plenty of reasons to think Paul and Jesus (in Matt) where talking about two different issues. You wouldn't apply the "spiritual" dimension reading as in Rom 7:9-10 to the "killing" of the body in Matt 10:28, would you?
I will jump in here if I may. The case for Evangelical Conditionalism/annihilationism doesn't hang on the idea that "death" involves a ceasing to exists. Sounds strange, I know. It is more accurate to say that just as the death of the body is the ending of life resulting in the inability of that body to maintain consciousness so the destruction of the body and soul by God (Matt 10:28) is the ending of life of the whole person so that there is the inability to maintain consciousness in hell. That is how we read the parallelism in Matt 10:28. Yes, it can be argued that just as the remains of the body will decompose implying a nothingness (maybe) but t our case doesn't rest on that issue. So when I see many a good folk trying to show how the soul can't cease to exist or the "destruction" language doesn't mean "annihilation" it makes me think that the point has been missed because we have miscommunicated.

Also, you keep pointing to Rom 7:9. Took me a while to figure out that it is in verse 10 that you are referring to and not verse 9 (they need to be taken together). I agree in the "spiritual" dimension is in view here but so what? Identifying variegated meanings in unrelated contexts is half the job. One still needs to look at each reference to death in context and there are plenty of reasons to think Paul and Jesus (in Matt) where talking about two different issues. You wouldn't apply the "spiritual" dimension reading as in Rom 7:9-10 to the "killing" of the body in Matt 10:28, would you?
while people dwell in the city of the new Jerusalem, others are outside of that city. This can only be after the final judgement
 
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William Tanksley Jr

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The Bible plainly states there are people inside the new Jerusalem and outside of it/ the city at the same time.

You're not looking at the Bible when you say that. The Bible does NOT "plainly state" what you're saying it does; it never comes close to saying _that_. The passage you're thinking of says that there are people washing their robes (present) so that they WILL have the right to enter and eat (future) at the same time as there are people who are loving lies (present) outside. Only the people who wash their robes will be judged worthy. Here's another passage saying the same thing: Luke 20:35-36 "but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."

The wicked are NOT judged worthy to attain to that age; rather, they are "cut off" before the age starts, by means of death. This is why the gates of the city are open without worry of unclean things entering -- because "lawbreakers and all causes of stumbling" have been gathered up and burnt up like tares in a furnace.

And I've already shown you an abundance of proof that all your previous claims about God not being present with people outside of the city are false, because already-saved people enter the gates all the time (that's why the gates are open). This is not only a city, but also an entire "new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."
 
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stuart lawrence

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You're not looking at the Bible when you say that. The Bible does NOT "plainly state" what you're saying it does; it never comes close to saying _that_. The passage you're thinking of says that there are people washing their robes (present) so that they WILL have the right to enter and eat (future) at the same time as there are people who are loving lies (present) outside. Only the people who wash their robes will be judged worthy. Here's another passage saying the same thing: Luke 20:35-36 "but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."

The wicked are NOT judged worthy to attain to that age; rather, they are "cut off" before the age starts, by means of death. This is why the gates of the city are open without worry of unclean things entering -- because "lawbreakers and all causes of stumbling" have been gathered up and burnt up like tares in a furnace.

And I've already shown you an abundance of proof that all your previous claims about God not being present with people outside of the city are false, because already-saved people enter the gates all the time (that's why the gates are open). This is not only a city, but also an entire "new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."
You are having to desperately try and make scripture say something other than what it plainly states aren't you. It's as plain as day you know. People are outside the new Jerusalem, they dont cease to exist! It doesn't matter how much you write to try and deflect from that, it remains the truth.
But as I previously said. No matter what people are plainly shown they must resist it, for to admit to error would be unthinkable. You haven't shown me any abundant truths.
The truth is, the academic mind is leading you in your understanding. The spiritual cannot be understood via the little grey cells
 
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Chris Date

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You are having to desperately try and make scripture say something other than what it plainly states aren't you. It's as plain as day you know. People are dwelling inside the new Jerusalem, and people are outside of it. It doesn't matter how much you write to try and deflect from that, it remains the truth.
But as I previously said. No matter what people are plainly shown they must resist it, for to admit to error would be unthinkable. You haven't shown me any abundant truths.
The truth is, the academic mind is leading you in your understanding. The spiritual cannot be understood via the little grey cells

This is incredibly rude, disrespectful, and uncharitable.
 
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Chris Date

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Sorry, it's you that can't accept what the Bible plainly states.

@Dartman, I just told @stuart lawrence that this kind of language on his part is rude, disrespectful, and uncharitable. You and I are on the same side of this debate, I gather, but let's try to hold everyone in this thread to a high standard of dialogue.
 
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Chris Date

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Since no one took me up on my challenge from a few pages ago, I'll issue it again.

I'd like to ask the defenders of eternal torment here what they make of the fact that Jesus, who we evangelicals believe is our substitutionary, atoning sacrifice for sin, died in our place.

Substitutionary, atoning, sacrificial death is worked into the warp and woof of salvation history from the beginning, from the garments of skin made for Adam and Eve from the first sacrificial animal death, to the Passover lamb that died in the place of the first-born of the families who placed its blood on their doorposts, to the animal sacrifices of the Mosaic covenant. This is why Jesus, as their typological fulfillment, is so consistently said to have died in the place of sinners, biblical authors using the Greek prepositions ἀντί and ὑπ́ερ to teach that Jesus literally took our place and suffered what we deserved when he died (e.g., Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45; 1 Timothy 2:6; 2 Corinthians 5:14; John 11:50-52).

It seems eminently reasonable, then, that the penal consequences of sin, borne by Jesus on the cross as a substitute in the place of sinners, is the sort of death he suffered. Yet that sort of death—the privation of embodied life—is the very sort that the finally impenitent in hell will never suffer, according to the doctrine of eternal torment. And so its defenders inadvertently end up denying the substitutionary nature of Christ's death, for whereas he died, the risen wicked will not.

Conservative evangelicals are ordinarily adamant that it is heresy to deny the substitutionary death of Christ, including Bruce Ware, John Piper, and Chuck Colson. Meanwhile, otherwise stellar, thoughtful exegetes and theologians end up inadvertently denying this evangelical essential, including Wayne Grudem. In his Systematic Theology, he writes, "When Jesus knew that he had paid the full penalty for our sin, he said, ‘It is finished’ (John 19:30).” Grudem's use of the perfect-tense "had paid" demonstrates that in his view, Christ suffered the complete penalty for sin, the equivalent of the eternity of torment he thinks Christ's people deserved, and then he died. So his death actually isn't substitutionary in this view; only his pain is.

Can any defender of eternal torment here simultaneously affirm the substitutionary nature of Jesus' physical death and the doctrine of eternal torment for the physically risen, immortal wicked in hell?
 
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ClementofA

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ClementofA, thanks for taking the time to share a comment with so much detail in it (I only quoted a small portion above). I'm willing to attempt to discuss those details as I have time, but first I have a question. Would you be willing to explain basically what your view is concerning what happens to the unrighteous after they die?

If you believe everyone eventually is saved, can you briefly sketch when and how this might happen? What happens in between the time someone dies not believing in Christ and the time when they are saved and welcomed joyfully into God's presence?

Sometimes people ask questions for rhetorical effect (I do this sometimes), but these are simply honest questions. I want to understand at least the basics of the big picture of your view before I try to interact with the details. I see that you hold to some type of universalism, but there are various types of universalism. Thanks!

Q1. The unrighteous will be resurrected after the millennial age to give account of themselves to God & be judged. If any are not at that time found written in the book of life, they are cast into the lake of fire where Satan & others already are.

Q2. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 describes this.

Q3. See above.
 
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Dirk1540

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I thought I explained that in my post.
You did thank you, and thanks for the follow up explanation too. What I meant when I asked for clarity was that your post was smack dab in the middle of disagreement with the other gentleman. I wasn't exactly clear whether we had dispute in here on what Gehenna was or not, wasn't 100% sure or not if someone else had an argument defending the view put forward in 1200 AD.

There has been so much to take in and chew on, just wanted to be sure I was totally clear on Gehenna. Thanks
 
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Dartman

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Have you ever read the parable of the rich man and Lazarus?
Yes. That parable is a symbolic discussion of the issues Paul wrote about in Rom 11, and Daniel wrote about in Daniel 9, and Jesus spoke about in several parables, perhaps most clearly in Matt 21:23-46.
 
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lesliedellow

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Yes. That parable is a symbolic discussion of the issues Paul wrote about in Rom 11, and Daniel wrote about in Daniel 9, and Jesus spoke about in several parables, perhaps most clearly in Matt 21:23-46.

It is a parable, and Jesus would have used whatever symbolism he thought appropriate in describing a fearful reality.
 
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Der Alte

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Yes. That parable is a symbolic discussion of the issues Paul wrote about in Rom 11, and Daniel wrote about in Daniel 9, and Jesus spoke about in several parables, perhaps most clearly in Matt 21:23-46.
Every early church father who quoted or referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.
• Irenaeus [120-202 AD] Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning. [was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.]
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
Link: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1 Chaper 11
On the Resurrection.“There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.] Part First
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
 
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Dartman

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Every early church father who quoted or referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.
You mean every early church author that SURVIVED the censorship of the following centuries?
 
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Dartman

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It is a parable, and Jesus would have used whatever symbolism he thought appropriate in describing a fearful reality.
Correct. Perhaps even borrowing from some of their own superstitions, to create a double irony.
 
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Mark Corbett

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Q1. The unrighteous will be resurrected after the millennial age to give account of themselves to God & be judged. If any are not at that time found written in the book of life, they are cast into the lake of fire where Satan & others already are.

Q2. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 describes this.

Q3. See above.

Thanks. I'm still not sure I understand some parts of your view. I may have missed something you wrote "above". I've tried to read all the comments, including those that come in when I'm asleep or away, but I may have missed some. I think your view is probably that the unrighteous who are cast into the lake of fire are being purified or else receiving more revelation or something like that so that they eventually do repent, accept Christ, are forgiven, and are allowed out of the lake of fire and into God's presence with the rest of the redeemed. I think this is likely your view, but I don't want to just assume it. This is the view Robin Parry presents in The Evangelical Universalist, but Parry points out that not all Universalists share his specific type of Universalism. Can you set me straight if this does not indeed represent your view?
 
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William Tanksley Jr

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You are having to desperately try and make scripture say something other than what it plainly states aren't you.

No, I'm trying to share with you the reasons why I see conditional immortality in Scripture, because I'm interested in persuading people (you and the other readers) of my viewpoint.

I see that you're uninterested in persuading anyone; all you've done this entire time is repeat your opinion, and state a very negative and biased opinion about me. You've given no evidence, and failed to address, or even mention, any point of the evidence I've brought up; further, as our discussion's gone on, you've stopped making what used to be your main claim, that the Bible teaches that the wicked will live forever separated from God.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I can't change it. But let everyone see the facts: this is the only passage in the entire Bible that you've kept presenting as evidence for your case, and you refuse to discuss why you think it supports your view, while I've given detailed discussions of the passage and its context, as well as other passages that teach the same things I'm telling you.

You call me "desperate", but you're the one who's relying on only a single verse to support their doctrine, and you're the one who's refused to actually discuss and put their opinions up for judgment.
 
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Dirk1540

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I'd like to ask the defenders of eternal torment here what they make of the fact that Jesus, who we evangelicals believe is our substitutionary, atoning sacrifice for sin, died in our place.

Substitutionary, atoning, sacrificial death is worked into the warp and woof of salvation history from the beginning, from the garments of skin made for Adam and Eve from the first sacrificial animal death, to the Passover lamb that died in the place of the first-born of the families who placed its blood on their doorposts, to the animal sacrifices of the Mosaic covenant. This is why Jesus, as their typological fulfillment, is so consistently said to have died in the place of sinners, biblical authors using the Greek prepositions ἀντί and ὑπ́ερ to teach that Jesus literally took our place and suffered what we deserved when he died (e.g., Matt 20:28; Mark 10:45; 1 Tim 2:6; 2 Cor 5:14; John 11:50–52).

It seems eminently reasonable, then, that the penal consequences of sin, borne by Jesus on the cross as a substitute in the place of sinners, is the sort of death he suffered. Yet that sort of death—the privation of embodied life—is the very sort that the finally impenitent in hell will never suffer, according to the doctrine of eternal torment. And so its defenders inadvertently end up denying the substitutionary nature of Christ's death, for whereas he died, the risen wicked will not.

Conservative evangelicals are ordinarily adamant that it is heresy to deny the substitutionary death of Christ, including Bruce Ware, John Piper, and Chuck Colson. Meanwhile, otherwise stellar, thoughtful exegetes and theologians end up inadvertently denying this evangelical essential, including Wayne Grudem. In his Systematic Theology, he writes, "When Jesus knew that he had paid the full penalty for our sin, he said, ‘It is finished’ (John 19:30).” Grudem's use of the perfect-tense "had paid" demonstrates that in his view, Christ suffered the complete penalty for sin, the equivalent of the eternity of torment he thinks Christ's people deserved, and then he died. So his death actually isn't substitutionary in this view; only his pain is.

Can any defender of eternal torment here simultaneously affirm the substitutionary nature of Jesus' physical death and the doctrine of eternal torment for the physically risen, immortal wicked in hell?

As I was reading this post it occurred to me, don't we have a mathematical problem with eternal torment? How can Jesus 'Pay the price' for, let's say for argument's sake 2 billion eternal sentences??

Everyone knows that infinity times infinity is an illogical problem. Likewise you can not 'Finish' a sentence of eternity. One might answer "God can do anything", no he can't, God can not draw a square circle. Likewise God can not finish off an eternal sentence because that's a self defeating statement. And pointing out self defeating statements are the exact arguments that apologists have been using to put atheists in logical corners for years (if you're familiar with it, Norm Geisler & Frank Turek's 'Road Runner' strategy used against postmoderns).

So what is an eternal sentence plus an eternal sentence? What is this answer,

2,000,000,000 x eternity = Z

Solve for Z please. You can't it's an illogical question. It's as illogical as asking "Well then who created God?" God is that which has always been...meaning that asking a question about God's beginning is self defeating.

So would somebody please solve for Z? The problem is that you can only solve for Z on the day that you can also draw a triangle with 2 angles.
 
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