Universalism...why not?

[Der Alte]

You are not reading or comprehending what i'm posting. This is the third time i am bringing this to your attention. You are looking in the wrong article. You quoted an article re the word AD from TWOT. I quoted from an TWOT article on OLAM that speaks about AD that you yourself posted in 2005. I gave you the link to the thread & page in 2005 where you posted that and which states:
"'ad (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as 'olam (usually long continuance into the future, but cf. Job 20:4)."
Post 1669 in this thread has the link i refer to above.

How does my post from 2005 re: "olam" contradict my post here re: the Hebrew word "ad?" Please note I was talking about "ad" not "olam."
My post

Universalism...why not?
The verse which supposedly says "Olam and further" is faulty the word translated "further" is "ad" it means only eternal, it never means further.

Your response.

Universalism...why not?
The following source disagrees with you. The translations of AD as "further", "beyond", "futurity", "still" & other synonyms also fits in well with this statement re AD:
"Derivative TWOT Number: 1631a
Derivative Transliteration: 'olam
'ad (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as 'olam (usually long continuance into the future, but cf. Job 20:4).

FYI "substantially" does not mean "exactly the same!" So if you want to discuss "ad" in BDB then discuss "ad," if you want to discuss "olam" in BDB then discusss "olam" Don't try to prove the meaning of "ad" from an ambiguous comment in "olam," if the comment even exists.

 

[ClementofA]

Tell you what amigo start by providing all that same information for every secondary quote you have posted in response to me. Start with your supposed quote from Zodhiates above. I have the book, you evidently do not which is why your supposed quote from Zodhiates had not only the wrong page number but also the wrong definition. I'll be waiting for you to get all that information. Once again do not demand/request from me what you cannot or are incapable of providing yourself.

How do you know the page number or definition was wrong when you don't even know what edition it was posted from? Did you even look in the right book?

Earlier in this thread you kept insisting i was wrong about an article in TWOT re AD, even though i repeatedly stated the article i was referring to was on OLAM.

In another thread you said you didn't see certain words in a particular lexicon entry. I posted a link showing they were included. Another poster also verified the words were there in his copy of the book.

Do you see where all this is leading?

Additionally, earlier in this thread you posted Strong's lexicon, but missing the words "advance or" that appear in this:

From adah; properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition)...Strong's Hebrew: 5703. עַד (ad) -- perpetuity

Do you see where all this is leading?

 

[ClementofA]

How does my post from 2005 re: "olam" contradict my post here re: the Hebrew word "ad?" Please note I was talking about "ad" not "olam."

I said nothing about a contradiction. You were talking about an article re AD refuting what i posted as if it was an article on AD, when i had clearly posted it was from an article on OLAM that mentioned AD. Therein lies your confusion.

As for your article on AD, allegedly from a source with Spiros Zohdiates as editor, like the lexicons posted in this discussion so far all concur, it does not agree with your claim the word AD[1703] means "only eternal". These lexicons range of meanings for AD also are generally harmonious with rendering the word in Daniel 12:3 as i have indicated.

 

[Der Alte]

How do you know the page number or definition was wrong when you don't even know what edition it was posted from? Did you even look in the right book?

How do I know your quote was false? Because I have a copy of Zodhiates and I doubt very seriously that Zodhiates made any substantial changes between editions. So back it up or pack it up give the full bibliographic citation of the Zoidhiates your quote is supposedly from?

Earlier in this thread you kept insisting i was wrong about an article in TWOT re AD, even though i repeatedly stated the article i was referring to was on OLAM.

Wrong! I said I was talking about "ad" and you tried to prove my quote from BDB wrong by quoting part of the definition of "olam."

In another thread you said you didn't see certain words in a particular lexicon entry. I posted a link showing they were included. Another poster also verified the words were there in his copy of the book.
Do you see where all this is leading?
Additionally, earlier in this thread you posted Strong's lexicon, but missing the words "advance or" that appear in this:
From adah; properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition)...Strong's Hebrew: 5703. עַד (ad) -- perpetuity
Do you see where all this is leading?

I don't care where you think it is going. I may quote Strong's occasionally for convenience but I don't rely on it. I have BDB, BAGD, Louw-Nieda and other resources.

Online Bible FAQ
Q:The Online Bible Strong's is not the same as my Exhaustive Strongs Concordance. Why is that?
A: We used the Strong's system but the actual Greek and Hebrew to implement the numbers. By doing this we corrected about 15000 errors in the Strong's concordance.
http://www.onlinebible.net/faqs.html

Rebuilding Strong’s time-honored concordance from the ground up, biblical research experts John Kohlenberger and James Swanson have achieved unprecedented accuracy and clarity. Longstanding errors have been corrected. Omissions filled in. Word studies simplified. Thoroughness and ease of use have been united and maximized.
Zondervan

Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, The: 21st Century Edition​

 

[ClementofA]

How do I know your quote was false? Because I have a copy of Zodhiates and I doubt very seriously that Zodhiates made any substantial changes between editions.

You doubt?

"There are 440 occurrences of Owlam in the Hebrew Old Testament. More than 300 of these instances indicate an indefinite continuance into the very near future. however the meaning of the word is not confined to the future. There are at least twenty instances where Owlam clearly refers to the past, though rately a limitless past..."

"Owlam, the same Hebrew word, can describe a short period of only three days..."

"... 'Ad (5703) which has about the same spectrum of meaning as owlam. The Septuagint generally translates owlam by aion(G165)cf. New Testament Lexical section, referring to a long age or period of time, often translated as "world"."

...(Spiros Zodhaites, Hebrew/Greek Key Study Bible pg. 1757)

sssalowlam

Wrong! I said I was talking about "ad" and you tried to prove my quote from BDB wrong by quoting part of the definition of "olam."

I quoted a remark on AD in the article on OLAM. You kept insisting i was wrong about an article in TWOT re AD, even though i repeatedly stated the article i was referring to was on OLAM. And you questioned the authenticity of the article even though it was something you yourself had posted, as proven by the link i provided to your 2005 post.

Online Bible FAQ
Q:The Online Bible Strong's is not the same as my Exhaustive Strongs Concordance. Why is that?
A: We used the Strong's system but the actual Greek and Hebrew to implement the numbers. By doing this we corrected about 15000 errors in the Strong's concordance.
http://www.onlinebible.net/faqs.html

Rebuilding Strong’s time-honored concordance from the ground up, biblical research experts John Kohlenberger and James Swanson have achieved unprecedented accuracy and clarity. Longstanding errors have been corrected. Omissions filled in. Word studies simplified. Thoroughness and ease of use have been united and maximized.
Zondervan

Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, The: 21st Century Edition​

There's no evidence any error was corrected re the entry i posted from Strongs re AD.
What may have happened is under the guise of allegedly correcting errors those who changed the original Strongs decided to modify it in accord with their own theological biases. I'll stick with the original Strongs entry of AD[1703], not those who changed what Strongs originally wrote. But creating a new allegedly corrected Strongs is a good way to sell books & make money.

 

[ClementofA]

The article on "ad" is on pg. 1642 and here is the complete article.

5703. ‘ad this masc. noun arises from 571o meaning duration. advance, perpetutty. eternity The ASV word without end, while the RSV has “to all eternity” Hebr. has no special terms for the past, the present, the future, or eternity There simpIy was no word tor time in that language. See olam (5769) for further information. Ad and Olam appear together nineteen times. Only twice is ‘ad used with to the past (Job 20:4: Hab 3:6) Otherwise. it always denotes the unforeseeable future Frequently the word 'ad is applied to God His existence is eternal (Is 57:15) While His righteousness endures forever. (Ps. 111.3, 112.3. 9), His anger does not (Mic. 7:18). The throne of God will endure forever (Ps 1o:16). The dynasty of David will continue forever (Ps. 89:29, 132: 12), Zion is God's dwelling place forever. (Ps. 48:14, 132:149). Ad may function as a prep. and a conj. It can also be used in a comparative or superlative sense. ​

It appears that those who espouse UR will believe anything that is posted at UR websites such as tents-я-us, without question.

The book title, author, editor, edition, copyright date, source (book, DVD, download etc), etc are not cited. However, where ever this may be coming from, it is not in agreement with your claim AD means "only eternal". When it says "meaning duration. advance" it is in harmony with translations of it in Dan. 12:3 i posted which you rejected. Similarly Strong's also refers to "advance":

"AD 5703 Strongs...From adah; properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition)..."

"Greek Equivalent Words: Strong #: 165 ‑ αἰών (ahee‑ohn')..."

Strong's #5703 - עַד - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

Lexicons do not agree with you. Neither does the early church Greek OT.

 

[Der Alte]

The book title, author, editor, edition, copyright date, source (book, DVD, download etc), etc are not cited. However, where ever this may be coming from, it is not in agreement with your claim AD means "only eternal". When it says "meaning duration. advance" it is in harmony with translations of it in Dan. 12:3 i posted which you rejected. Similarly Strong's also refers to "advance":
"AD 5703 Strongs...From adah; properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition)..."
"Greek Equivalent Words: Strong #: 165 ‑ αἰών (ahee‑ohn')..."
Strong's #5703 - עַד - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Lexicons do not agree with you. Neither does the early church Greek OT.

The same old empty claims and assertions, I supposedly did this, that or the other but you never can quote where exactly it is. Get back to me when you have provided "The book title, author, editor, edition, copyright date, source (book, DVD, download etc)" for your quote allegedly from Zodhiates and every other secondhand quote you have posted. Do not demand of me what you can't or won't provide oyurself. You can't provide that information on the stuff you posted supposedly from Zodhiates because it was something posted on a random uni website not from the primary source.

 

[ClementofA]

You can't provide that information on the stuff you posted supposedly from Zodhiates because it was something posted on a random uni website not from the primary source.

Was it from a "uni website"? You provided no evidence of that. A common claim even when that is not the case.

You haven't posted the info re your source. Even if you did, to any casual reader how would they know your alleged info was any more reliable than other postings on the internet, such as the one i posted? Which BTW you have not refuted.

Last time this happened you couldn't find what i was referring to on the internet in your allegedly own source, which you never posted. Another poster confirmed that what i had referred to was correct & you were wrong. That was regarding another entry from Spiros Zodhiates.

"There are 440 occurrences of Owlam in the Hebrew Old Testament. More than 300 of these instances indicate an indefinite continuance into the very near future. however the meaning of the word is not confined to the future. There are at least twenty instances where Owlam clearly refers to the past, though rately a limitless past..."

"Owlam, the same Hebrew word, can describe a short period of only three days..."

"... 'Ad (5703) which has about the same spectrum of meaning as owlam. The Septuagint generally translates owlam by aion(G165)cf. New Testament Lexical section, referring to a long age or period of time, often translated as "world"."

...(Spiros Zodhaites, Hebrew/Greek Key Study Bible pg. 1757)

sssalowlam

 

[Der Alte]

Was it from a "uni website"? You provided no evidence of that. A common claim even when that is not the case.

I most certainly did I quoted your post with the link to the anonymous uni website you C/P the supposed quote from Zodiathes and you generously provided the link again at the bottom of this same post. Here for your reading pleasure.

"... 'Ad (5703) which has about the same spectrum of meaning as owlam. The Septuagint generally translates owlam by aion(G165)cf. New Testament Lexical section, referring to a long age or period of time, often translated as "world"."
...(Spiros Zodhaites, Hebrew/Greek Key Study Bible pg. 1757)
sssalowlam

Here are the guys "qualifications" from his home page at the link you provided

Hello, My name is Carey Scott, I have been a member of a number of congregations and have preached whenever I got the opportunity. For almost twelve years, I was the preacher at Greenwood Village church of Christ. After that work was over, I never lost the desire to preach whenever there was opportunity. I have been used in interim work and fill in work. Between April 2007 and November of 2009, I preached for the Hwy 90 Church of Christ in Madisonville Texas. On October 10, 2010, I began my work with the Eastside church of Christ in Ranger Texas. On February 1, 2017 I began my work with the Church of Christ in Newark, California.​

I guess all this qualifies him to be cited as an expert.

Last time this happened you couldn't find what i was referring to on the internet in your allegedly own source, which you never posted. Another poster confirmed that what i had referred to was correct & you were wrong. That was regarding another entry from Spiros Zodhiates.

Yeah, right! "last time this happened" You seem to be frequently claiming I did something or other in the past but if that is true then and there was the time to say something about it not weeks or months later.

 

[ClementofA]

I most certainly did I quoted your post with the link to the anonymous uni website you C/P the supposed quote from Zodiathes and you generously provided the link again at the bottom of this same post. Here for your reading pleasure.

Sill nothing about that being a "unie website".

I guess all this qualifies him to be cited as an expert.

Irrelevant.

Yeah, right! "last time this happened" You seem to be frequently claiming I did something or other in the past but if that is true then and there was the time to say something about it not weeks or months later.

It was. And it compares to the present situation. Maybe history will repeat itself.

 

[shakewell]

So, if God's love and patience run out on a soul upon death, either God doesn't want all men to be saved or God can't do what he wants to do. Which is it?

Neither. God wants all men to be saved on His terms alone. So He can and does what He wants to do: gives each man sufficient time to be saved. Any amount short of or beyond 'sufficient' is a waste.

 

[ClementofA]

...By contrast the wicked are doomed to destruction forever (Ps 9:6 [H 7])...
​

The above false claim is from the TWOT lexicon re AD[Strongs 5703], as quoted in the OP.

Regarding Psalm 9 6[H7] the TWOT claims the wicked are doomed to destruction "forever", but the word AD[5703]doesn't even appear in verse 6. [I wonder which has more errors, Strongs with its allegedly 15,000, or TWOT.].

Perhaps Psa.9:5 was meant which the KJV renders by the self contradictory "for ever and ever", LE OWLAM WA ED[5703 AD], as if it were possible to add any time to "for ever". The rendering "for ever & ever" is not translation, but interpretation, so misleads the reader.

Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. (Psa.9:5, KJV)

You rebuke the nations; You destroy the wicked; You wipe out their name for the eon and further. (Psa.9:5, CLV)

Thou hast rebuked the nations, Thou hast destroyed the lawless one, Their name, hast thou wiped out, to times age-abiding and beyond. (Psa.9:5, Rotherham)

Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever*. (Psa.9:5, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

for eon and futurity
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa9.pdf


ἐπετίμησας ἔθνεσιν καὶ ἀπώλετο ὁ ἀσεβής τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῶν ἐξήλειψας εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος (LXX)

εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος meaning literally for the aion and for the aion of the aion [i.e. for the eon and into the eon of the eon]

The wicked of Sodom were destroyed from life on earth in this eon. Psa.9:5 of the Hebrew OT says it will continue "beyond"[AD, 5703] that, or as the LXX Greek OT says, into the "eon of the eon", which may be a reference to the millennial eon. Clearly the millennial eon is not endless, but has an end, so cannot be "for ever" let alone "for ever and ever". There is no hint of final destiny suggested in Psalm 9:5.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism



​

 

[Der Alte]

The above false claim is from the TWOT lexicon re AD[Strongs 5703], as quoted in the OP.
Regarding Psalm 9 6[H7] the TWOT claims the wicked are doomed to destruction "forever", but the word AD[5703]doesn't even appear in verse 6. [I wonder which has more errors, Strongs with its allegedly 15,000, or TWOT.].
Perhaps Psa.9:5 was meant which the KJV renders by the self contradictory "for ever and ever", LE OWLAM WA ED[5703 AD], as if it were possible to add any time to "for ever". The rendering "for ever & ever" is not translation, but interpretation, so misleads the reader.
Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. (Psa.9:5, KJV)

I explained this to you before but you evidently were too busy trying to come up with some kind of rebuttal that you overlooked or ignored it. Psa 9 in the Hebrew Bible is numbered differently that English Bibles. Note, the number in parentheses is the Hebrew enumeration.

Psalms 9:1 (9:1) For the Leader; upon Muthlabben. A Psalm of David. (9:2) I will give thanks unto the LORD with my whole heart; I will tell of all Thy marvellous works. ​

I have proved to any reasonable unbiased person that the Hebrew olam and ad are correctly translated forever and ever. Even some Uni. scholars, e.g. Bullinger, acknowledge this. So it is nothing but bias, assumption and presupposition to say "The rendering "for ever & ever" is not translation, but interpretation, so misleads the reader." The Uni teaching misleads the reader.
..... The repetition of a word for emphasis was a common Hebrew practice, called epizeuksis. I proved this with two quotes on Hyperbole in the Bible from your pet website Tents-я-us.
Bible Matters--Hyperbole
Bible Matters--<span class="style1">Hyperbole (exaggeration for effect) in the Bible and its Problems</span>
Once again I quote from the 1917 JPS.

JPS Psa 9:5 (9:6) Thou hast rebuked the nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Thou hast blotted out their name for ever [עולם/olam] and ever. [עד/ad]​

Anybody can find a biased version which will prove almost anything,

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) 5769 עד‘ad 1. Perpetuity. Asv. Rsv translate similarly. except in Isa 45:17. Here the former has world without end while the latter has to all eternity It should be noted that there is no general word for time in Hebrew. neither are there special terms for the past. present. future. and eternity. The word 'ôlãm should be compared with special attention given to the nineteen times when these words are used together.
ad. like ôlam. is used only in connection with prepositions, as an adverbial accusative or as a genitive in a construct chain. Ugarite b’d 1m could correspond to Hebrew. 'ôd as well as to 'ad (UT 19: no. 1813).
This word is used only twice relative to the past. The knowledge that the success of the wicked is short. has been known from of old (Job 20:4). In Hab 3:6 reference is made to the antiquity of the mountains.
Otherwise it always denotes the unforeseeable future: that is, it means in the following compounds 'ãdè-'ad “forever’ (Isa 26:4: 65:18: Ps 83:17 [H 181: 92:7 [H 8]: 132:12. 14. la'ad “forever. (isa 64:9 [H 8]: Amos 1:11: Mic 7:18: Ps 9:18 [H 19]: 19:9 [H 10]: 21:6 [H 7]: 22:26 [H 271. 37.29: 61.8 [H 9]. 89.29 [H 30]: 111.3, 8, 10. 112.3. 9. 148:6, Job 19.24. Pros 12.19. 29.14. I Chr 28:9); I’Olãm wa’ad and ‘ôlã,n wa'adn “forever and ever” (Ex 15:18: Mic 4:5: Ps 9:5 [H 6]: 10:16: 21:4 [H 5]: 45:6 [H 7], 17 [H 18]: 48:14 [H 15]: 52.8 [H 10]; 104:5: 119:44: 145:1.2, 21: Dan 12:3): and as well as in a construct chain in which it serves as the modifier (Isa 9:6 [H 5]1) ‘äbi-'ad .father forever”: 57:15: shökën ad ..then eternal throne”: Hab 3:6: har re-'ad “the everlasting hills.”
Frequently the word 'ad is applied to God. His existence is eternal (Isa 57:15). While his righteous endures forever (Ps 111:3: 112:3, 9). his anger does not (Mic 7:18). God is worthy of praise and will be praised forever Ps. 45:17 [H18]: 52:9 (H 10): 111:10: 145:1. 2. 211 The throne of God (Ps 10:l6:45:6 (H 7): Ex 15:18) and the law of God (Ps 19:9 (H 10)) will endure forever.
This word is also applied to Israel. The Davidic dynasty will continue forever, depending upon their response to the covenant (Ps 89:29 (H 30 132:12). Zion is Gods dwelling place forever (Ps 48:14 [H 15]; 132:14: 1 Chr 28:9).
A sharp contrast is seen in the use of this word reIative to the righteous and wicked. The righteous will not always be forgotten (Ps 9:18 [H 19]) and they will inherit the land forever (Ps 37.29). By contrast the wicked are doomed to destruction forever (Ps 9:6 [H 7]): 92:7 [H 8])t. Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) - 1631 - עולם
Hebrew Word: 'Lm
Strong's Cross Reference: None
Definition: III. Assumed root of the following.
Derivative TWOT Number: 1631a
Derivative Transliteration: 'olam
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference: 5769, 5865
Derivative Definition: forever, ever, everlasting evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world, etc. (RSV Similar in general, but substitutes always for in the world in Psa 73:12 and eternity for world in Ecc 3:11.) Probably derived from 'alam1, to hide, thus pointing to what is hidden in the distant future or in the distant past. The Ugaritic cognateis 'lm, eternity.
Though 'olam is used more than three hundred times to indicate indefinite continuance into the very distant future the meaning of the word is not confined to the future. There are at least twenty instances where it clearly refers to the past. Such usages generally point to something that seems long ago, but rarely if ever refer to a limitless past, Thus in Deu 32:7 and Job 22:15 it may refer to the time of one's elders. In Pro 22:28; Pro 23:10; Jer 6:16; Jer 18:15; Jer 28:8 it points back somewhat farther. In Isa 58:12; Isa 61:4; Mic 7:14; Mal 3:4, and in the Aramaic of Ezr 4:15, Ezr 4:19 it clearly refers to the time just before the exile. In 1Sa 27:8, in Isa 51:9 and Isa 63:9, Isa 63:11 and perhaps Eze 36:2, it refers to the events of the exodus from Egypt. In Gen 6:4 it points to the time shortly before the flood. None of these past references has in it the idea of endlessness or limitlessness, but each points to a time long before the immediate knowledge of those living. In Isa 64:3 the KJV translates the word "beginning of the world." In Psa 73:12 and Ecc 3:11 it is translated "world, " suggesting the beginning of a usage that developed greatly in post biblical times.
Jenni holds that its basic meaning "most distant times" can refer to either the remote past or to the future or to both as due to the fact that it does not occur independently (as a subject or as an object) but only in connection with prepositions indicating direction (min "since, " 'ad "until, " 1, "up to") or as an adverbial accusative of direction or finally as the modifying genitive in the construct relationship. In the latter instance 'olam can express by itself the whole range of meanings denoted by all the prepositions "since, until, to the most distant time"; i.e. it assumes the meaning "(unlimited, incalculable) continuance, eternity." (THAT II, p. 230) J. Barr (Biblical Words for Time ( 21969), p. 73) says, "We might therefore best state the "basic meaning" as a kind of range between 'remotest time' and 'perpetuity"'. But as shown above it is sometimes used of a not-so-remote past. For the meaning of the word in its attributive use we should note the designation of the Lord as 'el 'olam, "[colo=red]The Eternal God[/color]" (Gen 21:33).
The LXX generally translates 'olam by aion which has essentially the same range of meaning. That neither the Hebrew nor the Greek word in itself contains the idea of endlessness is shown both by the fact that they sometimes refer to events or conditions that occurred at a definite point in the past, and also by the fact that sometimes it is thought desirable to repeat the word, not merely saying "forever, " but ""forever and ever.
Both words came to be used to refer to a long age or period-an idea that is sometimes expressed in English by "world." Post biblical Jewish writings refer to the present world of toil as ha'olam hazzeh and to the world to come as ha'olam habba'.
'ad (q.v.) has substantially the same range of meaning as 'olam (usually long continuance into the future, but cf. Job 20:4).
Bibliography: Snaith, Norman H., "Time in the Old Testament, " in Promise and Fulfillment, Essays Presented to Professor S. H. Hooke, ed. F. F. Bruce, Edinburgh: Clark, 1963, pp. 175-86. Jenni, E., "Das wort 'olam im AT, " Diss, Theol. Basel 1953 ( ZAW 64:197-248; 65:1-35). A.A.M.​

​

 

[ClementofA]

I explained this to you before but you evidently were too busy trying to come up with some kind of rebuttal that you overlooked or ignored it. Psa 9 in the Hebrew Bible is numbered differently that English Bibles. Note, the number in parentheses is the Hebrew enumeration.

Psalms 9:1 (9:1) For the Leader; upon Muthlabben. A Psalm of David. (9:2) I will give thanks unto the LORD with my whole heart; I will tell of all Thy marvellous works.
​

What does Psalm 9:1-2 have to do with anything. Do you see any wicked mentioned there? That is not the verse TWOT was referring to. As i said:

Regarding Psalm 9 6[H7] the TWOT claims the wicked are doomed to destruction "forever", but the word AD[5703]doesn't even appear in verse 6. [I wonder which has more errors, Strongs with its allegedly 15,000, or TWOT.].

The word AD[5703] isn't in verse 7, either, BTW.

I have proved to any reasonable unbiased person that the Hebrew olam and ad are correctly translated forever and ever. Even some Uni. scholars, e.g. Bullinger, acknowledge this.

You've proven nothing. Neither have you provided any evidence that Bullinger was ever a believer in the Scriptural teaching of eventual universal salvation.

The rest of your post was just some spam that didn't even address my comments re Psalm 9:6, as follows:

By contrast the wicked are doomed to destruction forever (Ps 9:6 [H 7])...

The above false claim is from the TWOT lexicon re AD[Strongs 5703], as quoted in the OP.

Regarding Psalm 9 6[H7] the TWOT claims the wicked are doomed to destruction "forever", but the word AD[5703]doesn't even appear in verse 6. [I wonder which has more errors, Strongs with its allegedly 15,000, or TWOT.].

Perhaps Psa.9:5 was meant which the KJV renders by the self contradictory "for ever and ever", LE OWLAM WA ED[5703 AD], as if it were possible to add any time to "for ever". The rendering "for ever & ever" is not translation, but interpretation, so misleads the reader.

Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever. (Psa.9:5, KJV)

You rebuke the nations; You destroy the wicked; You wipe out their name for the eon and further. (Psa.9:5, CLV)

Thou hast rebuked the nations, Thou hast destroyed the lawless one, Their name, hast thou wiped out, to times age-abiding and beyond. (Psa.9:5, Rotherham)

Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever*. (Psa.9:5, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

for eon and futurity
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa9.pdf


ἐπετίμησας ἔθνεσιν καὶ ἀπώλετο ὁ ἀσεβής τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῶν ἐξήλειψας εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος (LXX)

εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος meaning literally for the aion and for the aion of the aion [i.e. for the eon and into the eon of the eon]

The wicked of Sodom were destroyed from life on earth in this eon. Psa.9:5 of the Hebrew OT says it will continue "beyond"[AD, 5703] that, or as the LXX Greek OT says,
into the "eon of the eon", which may be a reference to the millennial eon. Clearly the millennial eon is not endless, but has an end, so cannot be "for ever" let alone "for ever and ever". There is no hint of final destiny suggested in Psalm 9:5.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
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[ClementofA]

The TWOT lexicon entry for AD[5703] claims AD with OLAM at Danel 12:3 means the self-contradictory "forever and ever". If something is "forever" it cannot have "and ever" added on to it. But something that is for an eon can have "and further" added on to it:

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further." (Daniel 12:2-3, CLV)

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
and·ones-cleading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Daniel 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; 3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Daniel 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during. 3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*.
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

The early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Daniel 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translations using the words "and further" & similarly.

 

[ClementofA]

More evidence the TWOT lexicon is in error follows.

The TWOT gives the meaning "for ever" at Amos 1:11. This is clearly incorrect. Compare the following translations.

If the translators thought the word AD[5703] always meant "eternal" they wouldn't have translated it as "perpetually" & "continually" as they did here:

"...and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever." (Amos 1:11, JPS)
"...In their rage, they slashed them continually and were unrelenting in their anger." (Amos 1:11, NIV)
"...His anger also tore continually..." (Amos 1:11, NASB)

The second definition of perpetual:
"2: occurring continually : indefinitely long-continued . perpetual problems"
Definition of continual
"1: continuing indefinitely in time without interruption . continual fear"

 

[ClementofA]

More evidence the TWOT lexicon is in error re AD [Strongs 5703] follows.

TWOT states "I’Olãm wa’ad and ‘ôlã,n wa'adn “forever and ever” (Ex 15:18: Mic 4:5: Ps 9:5 [H 6]".

Earlier today in this thread i already showed TWOT's errant translation of Psalm 9:5. The same applies to Exo. 15:18 where the ancient Jewish scholars before Christ who translated the Hebrew OT into the Greek (LXX) rendered AD as KAI ETI "and still", just like in translations i've posted before for these verses and Dan. 12:3. The early church also accepted these translations.

Similarly, in Micah 4:5, AD was translated into the LXX as καὶ ἐπέκεινα "and beyond". Epekeina: farther on, beyond [strongs 1900].

So far i've shown 5 renderings of AD by TWOT to be in error. I could go through their entire list & find that is true of most, if not all, of them. Clearly whoever wrote the brief little TWOT piece on AD had no clue what they were talking about and or were being purposely deceptive for the sake of worldly gain, and or were just parroting certain dogmatic beliefs. The brief comment, not an article, is not worth the paper it is written on.

 

[Der Alte]

The TWOT lexicon entry for AD[5703] claims AD with OLAM at Danel 12:3 means the self-contradictory "forever and ever". If something is "forever" it cannot have "and ever" added on to it. But something that is for an eon can have "and further" added on to it:

Uni nonsense which I have proved false a number of times. Something which you and all other unis refuse to acknowledge, the OT is full of figures of speech one of those is "hyperbole," exaggeration for the purpose of emphasis. Even in English the word "forever" categorically means everlasting, unending, eternal but it is often followed by "an ever" or "and always." That "forever" is often emphasized by saying e.g. "forever and ever" or "forever and always." is not self-contradictory.
.....I have quoted 2 articles on hyperbole from your favorite 'source' tents-я-us more than once but evidently since they contradict your biases, assumptions/presuppositions you even ignore tents-я-us. This is typical for all heterodox groups if a source agrees with their teachings then it is automatically right if that same source says something which contradicts them that particular point is "wrong."
.....Once again versions are irrelevant unless the 'scholar" who made the "translation" provides his reasoning why he chose the meaning he did. That is what you have demanded from me for sources I have quoted. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

The early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Daniel 12:3:
καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]
Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.
eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet
εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]
So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translations using the words "and further" & similarly.

Irrelevant unless they provided their reasoning for choosing "eti." Remember that is your requirement which you keep demanding that I do.

 

[Der Alte]

More evidence the TWOT lexicon is in error re AD [Strongs 5703] follows.
TWOT states "I’Olãm wa’ad and ‘ôlã,n wa'adn “forever and ever” (Ex 15:18: Mic 4:5: Ps 9:5 [H 6]".
Earlier today in this thread i already showed TWOT's errant translation of Psalm 9:5. The same applies to Exo. 15:18 where the ancient Jewish scholars before Christ who translated the Hebrew OT into the Greek (LXX) rendered AD as KAI ETI "and still", just like in translations i've posted before for these verses and Dan. 12:3. The early church also accepted these translations.

Earlier in this thread or anywhere else you have "showed" nothing, you have "proved" nothing. You quite evidently do not know the first thing about translating Hebrew or Greek. All you are doing is desperately, frantically quote mining trying to find anything, anywhere, written by anybody which seems to support your biases, assumptions and presuppositions. Here you have demonstrated your complete lack of knowledge on this topic. One does not try to correct lexicons, dictionaries and wordbooks by quoting verses from random versions. That is totally backward.

Similarly, in Micah 4:5, AD was translated into the LXX as καὶ ἐπέκεινα "and beyond". Epekeina: farther on, beyond [strongs 1900].
So far i've shown 5 renderings of AD by TWOT to be in error. I could go through their entire list & find that is true of most, if not all, of them. Clearly whoever wrote the brief little TWOT piece on AD had no clue what they were talking about and or were being purposely deceptive for the sake of worldly gain, and or were just parroting certain dogmatic beliefs. The brief comment, not an article, is not worth the paper it is written on.

Nonsense! All irrelevant, all totally wrong. I doubt very seriously that you could parse a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb if you life depended on it. You are not a Hebrew or Greek scholar therefore all you opinions about the sources I have quoted are meaningless.

Exodus 3:15
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.​

עולם/olam in this verse definitely means eternal because it is in apposition to "unto all generations."

Psalms 119:44
(44) So shall I keep thy law continually for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]​

עולם/olam in this verse definitely means eternal because it is in apposition to "continually."

Psalms 21:4
(4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]​

עולם/olam in this verse definitely means eternal because it is in apposition to "length of days."

Psalms 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad]​

עולם/olam in this verse definitely means eternal because it is in apposition to "in all generations."

Ezekiel 27:36
(36) The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]​

עולם/olam in this verse definitely means eternal because it is in apposition to "never shall be."

Ezekiel 28:19
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]​

עולם/olam in this verse definitely means eternal because it is in apposition to "never shall be."

Psa 33:11
(11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart [colo=red]to all generations.[/color]​

עולם/olam in this verse definitely means eternal because it is in apposition to "to all generations."

Psa 146:10
(10) The LORD shall reign for ever, Psa 33:11
(11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart [colo=red]to all generations.[/color]​

עולם/olam in this verse definitely means eternal because it is in apposition to "to all generations."

Psa 37:28
(28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: [ עולם] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.​

עולם/olam in this verse definitely means eternal because it is contrasted with "shall be cut off."

Ecc 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.​

עולם/olam in this verse definitely means eternal because it is in apposition to "nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it."

Isa 51:6
(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.​

עולם/olam in this verse definitely means eternal because it is in apposition to "shall not be abolished."

Isa 51:8
(8) For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my salvation from generation to generation.​

עולם/olam in this verse definitely means eternal because it is in apposition to "from generation to generation."

Dan 4:34
(34) And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:​

עולם/olam in this verse definitely means eternal because it is in apposition to "from generation to generation."

1 Chronicles 29:10
(10) Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation: and David said, Blessed be thou, LORD God of Israel our father, for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עולם/olam]
1 Chronicles 16:36
(36) Blessed be the LORD God of Israel for ever [עולם/olam] and ever. [עולם/olam] And all the people said, Amen, and praised the LORD.
Nehemiah 9:5
(5) Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said, Stand up and bless the LORD your God for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[עולם/olam] and blessed be thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise.
Psalms 45:6
(6) Thy throne, O God, is for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad] the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Psalms 103:17
(17) But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting [עולם/olam] to everlasting [עולם/olam] upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
Psalms 106:48
(48) Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting [עולם/olam] to everlasting: [עולם/olam] and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.
Psalms 111:8
(8) They stand fast for ever [עד/ad] and ever, [עולם/olam] and are done in truth and uprightness.
Psalms 145:1
(1) David's Psalm of praise. I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]
Isaiah 30:8
(8) Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever [עד/ad] and ever: [עולם/olam]
Isaiah 59:21
(21) And as for Me, this is My covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and My words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth [עד/ad] and for ever. [עולם/olam]
Daniel 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [עולם/olam] life, and some to shame and everlasting [עולם/olam] contempt.
Daniel 12:3
(3) And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever [עולם/olam] and ever. [עד/ad]
Micah 4:5
(5) For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]
Micah 4:7
(7) And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, [עד/ad] even for ever.[עולם/olam]
​

 

[Der Alte]

More evidence the TWOT lexicon is in error follows.
The TWOT gives the meaning "for ever" at Amos 1:11. This is clearly incorrect. Compare the following translations.
If the translators thought the word AD[5703] always meant "eternal" they wouldn't have translated it as "perpetually" & "continually" as they did here:
"...and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever." (Amos 1:11, JPS)
"...In their rage, they slashed them continually and were unrelenting in their anger." (Amos 1:11, NIV)
"...His anger also tore continually..." (Amos 1:11, NASB)
The second definition of perpetual:
"2: occurring continually : indefinitely long-continued . perpetual problems"
Definition of continual
"1: continuing indefinitely in time without interruption . continual fear"

What are you talking about? TWOT does not mention Amos 1:11 in either article "Ad" or "Olam."