On Free Will

[jimmyjimmy]

The 'sheep not of this pen' that must be brought in are the Gentile believers. Individual Gentiles still have to enter through the gate to actually become part of Jesus' one flock - they are not part of the flock until they enter the gate. Jesus is speaking prophetically that there will be those among the Gentiles that Jesus leads into His flock, not setting up a teaching that there are already believers with eternal life among the Gentiles. The process by which people come to follow Jesus (faith) is amply described throughout the new testament.

It is much like when the Lord tells Paul, "For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city." Acts 18:9

Or when Caiphas prophesied, "and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad." Jn 11:52

God is outside of time. He knows His children, no matter when they come to Him through faith in Christ. That there would be children of God among the Gentiles (those would believe in response to the gospel) was a shock, and an offense, to the Jews who believed that they alone had the right to be the children of God.

"I have" other sheep.

"They too will listen to my voice"

Nothing uncertain about this.

 

[now faith]

But you did not show previously how one can be a sinner if he has not committed a transgression.



Infants are born without sin, innocent and pure putting them in a safe position with God. Yet if they die in that safe state they would be saved. This applies to those with severe mental disabilities who have minds as infants though advanced in years age-wise. Original sin puts all of these in eternal torment with no hope.



Lost.

2 THessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Just doing good will not save a person, one must have an obedient faith in doing God's will to be saved. So how can this person be without sin or be saved if he does not know God's will? Ignorance (lack of knowledge) is no excuse, Hosea 4:6.



God is all knowing and knows how men will choose. But foreknowledge does not mandate predetermination. Acts 2:23 God foreknew if He set up the circumstance by sending Christ at the time He did, God foreknew those Jews and Romans would choose of their own free will to crucify Christ. Therefore God is able to use man's free will choices to further His will without violating man's free will making Himself culpable for the sins man commits.

On the quote on 2nd Thessalonians, I believe you are out of the contextual narrative.

2 Thessalonians: 1. 6. Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7. And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This has nothing to do with a 21 year old who never received the Gospel.
The people Paul speaks about clearly no not God because they do not obey the Gospel.

Billy Graham was misquoted many years ago about buddhist being in Heaven.
His point was God would find a way for the buddhist to know the Gospel.
His saying you may see buddest in Heaven was intended to mean were once buddhist but have been saved from this.
I'm sure that Calvinist believe otherwise,that they were never meant for salvation in the first place.

 

[now faith]

Are you backtracking? Earlier you said that those who enter through the gate are sheep. Can those who are not sheep enter through the gate?

NO:


2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

There is only one way for all mankind.

John: 14. 6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[now faith]

I'm pretty sure that the necessity of entering through the gate (Christ) to become followers of Christ is a core teaching of the gospel, not an exclusive belief of reformed theology.

Reformed theology (at least, from what I've gathered from people who claim to be reformed) holds that some individuals are destined arbitrarily (not by faith) by God to enter the gate and so must, due to irresistible grace, enter the gate through faith; while others are unable to even desire to enter the gate, let alone enter it; a teaching which goes far beyond the import of John 10.

There is a difference between reformed theology and Calvinism.
Reformed theology is not exclusively Calvinist.
It is the following of the teaching of those who reformed from Catholicism.
Calvinism was at the forefront of the reformation,but seemingly it was Luther who we find in history books as the Reformer.
I personally believe at that time they still had regards for the authority of Rome,and placed more deity upon the earthly Church than they should.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Many were called out of Egypt.

Only a few entered the Promised Land.

Those who entered had learned that God could deliver out of danger. This is called the narrow gate, experiencing what Christ experienced in the wilderness, and prevailing.

Those who disobeyed did not want to pass through the dangers involved in becoming sheep. They wanted to return to the relative safety of Egypt.

John 12:24"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

 

[Hammster]

Many were called out of Egypt.

Only a few entered the Promised Land.

Those who entered had learned that God could deliver out of danger. This is called the narrow gate, experiencing what Christ experienced in the wilderness, and prevailing.

Those who disobeyed did not want to pass through the dangers involved in becoming sheep. They wanted to return to the relative safety of Egypt.

John 12:24"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

One doesn't become a sheep. There's nothing to support that. John 10, in which Jesus talks about the sheep, gives no indication of that.

 

[Wordkeeper]

One doesn't become a sheep. There's nothing to support that. John 10, in which Jesus talks about the sheep, gives no indication of that.

You can't escape the fact that many were called but only a few chosen. And they were chosen because they CHANGED.


1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

 

[Hammster]

You can't escape the fact that many were called but only a few chosen. And they were chosen because they CHANGED.


1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

You referenced Matthew. Where in that parable do you see that they were chosen because they CHANGED?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

You can't escape the fact that many were called but only a few chosen. And they were chosen because they CHANGED.


1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble

and a rock that makes them fall,

and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”m​

 

[Wordkeeper]

You referenced Matthew. Where in that parable do you see that they were chosen because they CHANGED?

Matthew 22:
8“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

13“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

Doh!

 

[Hammster]

Matthew 22:
8“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

13“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

Doh!

I'm aware of the parable. Where in that parable do you see that they were chosen because they CHANGED?

 

[Wordkeeper]

I'm aware of the parable. Where in that parable do you see that they were chosen because they CHANGED?

They got to stay!

 

[Hammster]

They got to stay!

They got to stay because they were chosen. But where does it say they were chosen because they changed?

 

[Wordkeeper]

They got to stay because they were chosen. But where does it say they were chosen because they changed?

They were wearing wedding clothes!

John 17:21I pray that all of these people continue to have unity in the way that you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they may be united with us so that the world will believe that you have sent me.

 

[Hammster]

They were wearing wedding clothes!

John 17:21I pray that all of these people continue to have unity in the way that you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they may be united with us so that the world will believe that you have sent me.

I know they were wearing wedding clothes. I knew that even without the exclamation point. But the question remains. Where in that parable do you see that they were chosen because they CHANGED?

 

[Wordkeeper]

I know they were wearing wedding clothes. I knew that even without the exclamation point. But the question remains. Where in that parable do you see that they were chosen because they CHANGED?

The parable tells of the call being made to the Jews, informing them that the solution to futile living had arrived.

This solution is union with God. The wedding banquet is ready.

The Jews refused to believe.

The invitation was extended to ALL.

They came ready for the wedding.

A worldly person never knew he had a problem. However, ignorance of the law is no defence against a law. You can't tell the IRS you didn't know about tax compliance.

He misunderstood the invitation.

Unfortunately there are going to be many Christians in the same predicament.

Because they never did due diligence.

Read the instructions!

Luke 11:
It happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples.”

2And He said to them, “When you pray, say:
‘Father, hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.

3‘Give us each day our daily bread.

4‘And forgive us our sins,
For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And lead us not into temptation.’”

5Then He said to them, “Suppose one of you has a friend, and goes to him at midnight and says to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves;6for a friend of mine has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7and from inside he answers and says, ‘Do not bother me; the door has already been shut and my children and I are in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything.’ 8“I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will get up and give him as much as he needs.

9“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10“For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. 11“Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12“Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

Acts 17:29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[Hammster]

They came ready for the wedding.

There's nowhere in the parable where that's stated or implied.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

This thread is certainly evidence that there are two types of people in the world, those who are seeking to justify themselves, and those who are justified by Christ.

 

[Wordkeeper]

There's nowhere in the parable where that's stated or implied.

It's implied the rest were allowed to stay, because they were in compliance. Those in infraction were not chosen, not allowed to stay, enter God's rest, as the treatment to the unprepared guest shows.

You have to understand that God had proved He could be relied on, to those called, those who were disillusioned by the world system. To their credit, they turned away from serving mammon.

1 Corinthians 101For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

It's not that no one accepted God's solution, the need to be one with God, as Joshua and Caleb demonstrated.

All things being equal, the two believed, wore the wedding clothes, were ready for union, whilst the others would not believe, disobeyed, complaining God wanted to destroy them.

 

[Hammster]

It's implied the rest were allowed to stay, because they were in compliance. Those in infraction were not chosen, not allowed to stay, enter God's rest, as the treatment to the unprepared guest shows.

You're making my head hurt, bro.

Let me help. Everyone rejected the invitation, even those at the feast. The only reason they were there was because they were gathered. Those gathered were clothed in the correct clothes.