What Does Universal Salvation Mean?

[Der Alte]

Not quite. This is what the response said:
It's not that the Apostle's creed trumps scripture---it harmonizes with it (it's a foundational teaching of Christianity). It's your commentary on scripture that's in question.

There is absolutely nothing questionable about my commentary on scripture. I quote from accredited Greek languages sources. If anyone thinks that their interpretation of the Apostle's creed or any other creed is superior to anything I post they need to prove it not just make assertions.

To believe what you write, one would have to discount the Apostle's Creed - one of the earliest teachings of the church. 1 Pet 4:6 clearly states that Jesus preached to those who are dead. It does not state that Jesus preached to those who were alive at the time of Noah; nor does it state that Jesus preached to those who were alive at the time of Jesus' earthly ministry.

Where does 1 Pet 4:6 clearly state "that Jesus preached to those who are dead?"

1 Peter 4:6
(6) For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.​

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

<snip...> I also believe in a post tribulation rapture, contrary to many believers. However, I hope I am wrong. I do not want to go through the tribulation either and will be delighted to find out I am wrong if they are right. Likewise with universal salvation. I have family members who died a Christless death. I would love to find out I am wrong. However, neither the Scriptures in my reading, nor my heart, agrees with universal salvation. Only the future will prove or disprove the doctrine.

I don't believe that all will be saved either. It's the Holy Spirit that will quicken our mortal bodies into immortality while others that are dead will not have that except perhaps to find out why at the final judgement. I used to be midtrib and find a lot of proof of that but basically live for the moment because what happens happens and not much that I can imagine would be worse than what many endure. Proof imo that amillenials are wrong. Satan is alive and well.
Having family members that are unsaved is a worry but I have left them in the Father's care praying for proof that righteous prayers will be answered at least to get them into the nations while the kings of the nations and priests of the New Jerusalem reign with Him. I like to compare Matthew 18:21-35 the Lord taking account of His servants, compared to Luke 16:1-13 the unjust steward and see it as a good indication that some will get prayed into heaven, but probably as a part of the nations. re: Matthew 25. I think there will be a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth in that area of the prelude to eternity. Specially when they have to take Law 101 all over again before given the decision to choose grace.

 

[mkgal1]

There is absolutely nothing questionable about my commentary on scripture

.....except for this:

Where does 1 Pet 4:6 clearly state "that Jesus preached to those who are dead?"
1 Peter 4:6
(6) For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead

Some people use "Jesus" and "Christ" interchangeably.....maybe that's the confusion? Some of us believe that is still ONE God.

The Apostle's Creed says:

>>>I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven....<<<

1st Peter 4 says....

>>>Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body...... But they will have to give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead......For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.<<<

Who do you say descended to the dead and preached to the dead?

 

[Der Alte]

Previous post

There is absolutely nothing questionable about my commentary on scripture. I quote from accredited Greek languages sources. If anyone thinks that their interpretation of the Apostle's creed or any other creed is superior to anything I post they need to prove it not just make assertions.
Where does 1 Pet 4:6 clearly state "that Jesus preached to those who are dead?"

1 Peter 4:6
(6) For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.​

End

.....except for this:
Some people use "Jesus" and "Christ" interchangeably.....maybe that's the confusion? Some of us believe that is still ONE God.
The Apostle's Creed says:
>>>I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven....<<<
1st Peter 4 says....
>>>Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body...... But they will have to give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead......For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.<<<
Who do you say descended to the dead and preached to the dead?

What we have here is a failure to communicate. Where does 1 Pet 4:6 say "Jesus",""Christ" or "Lord?" Vs. 4:6 is past tense and vs. 4:5 is future. Did Jesus judge some people between vss. 5 and 6?

 

[mkgal1]

What we have here is a failure to communicate. Where does 1 Pet 4:6 say "Jesus",""Christ" or "Lord?" Vs. 4:6 is past tense and vs. 4:5 is future. Did Jesus judge some people between vss. 5 and 6?

You want all your demands packed into verse 6 (the use of "Jesus", "Christ" or "Lord")? It helps to read it all in context instead of singling out words. I've mentioned that before---that sometimes we get too close and can't see the forest for the trees.

Verse 6 is past tense because Christ already descended to the dead.....verse 5 is future because---apparently---He's not ready to judge the living and the dead. "He" being "I am"---the Alpha and Omega.

 

[mkgal1]

There is absolutely nothing questionable about my commentary on scripture. I quote from accredited Greek languages sources. If anyone thinks that their interpretation of the Apostle's creed or any other creed is superior to anything I post they need to prove it not just make assertions.

You've come very close to denying the deity of Jesus---that's what's "questionable".

 

[mkgal1]

Where does 1 Pet 4:6 say "Jesus",""Christ" or "Lord?"

Who do you say descended to the dead and preached to the dead (and who is ready to judge the living and the dead)? Who is that referring to, if not Jesus...Christ....Lord?

 

[Der Alte]

You want all your demands packed into verse 6 (the use of "Jesus", "Christ" or "Lord")? It helps to read it all in context instead of singling out words. I've mentioned that before---that sometimes we get too close and can't see the forest for the trees.
Verse 6 is past tense because Christ already descended to the dead.....verse 5 is future because---apparently---He's not ready to judge the living and the dead. "He" being "I am"---the Alpha and Omega.

Can't you see the contradiction here? I'm not the one who can't see the forest for the trees. Vs. 5 is definitely future "ready to judge the quick and the dead."

1 Peter 4:5-6
(5) Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
(6) For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.​

But vs. 6 is past tense. had already been preached to them that are dead. Did something happen between vss. 5 and 6 that the one who was ready ready to judge the quick and the dead had already preached to the dead?.

Who do you say descended to the dead and preached to the dead (and who is ready to judge the living and the dead)? Who is that referring to, if not Jesus...Christ....Lord?

Nobody. Scripture does not say that Jesus descended and preached to the dead.

1 Peter 3:19-20
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,​

Jesus' earthly ministry included preaching deliverance to the captives. The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoner of war." see. 1 Pet 3:19-20. above. Where is it written that Jesus' ministry included preaching to the dead?
.....Still waiting for a scriptural explanation how those who are actually, physically dead be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit? How can the dead live, in any way, to say nothing of living according to God in the spirit?

 

[Der Alte]

You've come very close to denying the deity of Jesus---that's what's "questionable".

Wrong. I am actually saying that the out-of-context uni proof texts don't say what they think the vss, say.

 

[mkgal1]

Wrong. I am actually saying that the out-of-context uni proof texts don't say what they think the vss, say.

You've posted you "believe in" the Apostle's Creed....and suggest that a few of us are following a different interpretation than you are. I'm unfamiliar with an alternate interpretation....but I'm curious to have you explain your (apparently--correct) interpretation, if it's not about Christ descending to the dead (based on 1st Peter 4).

 

[mkgal1]

Can't you see the contradiction here? I'm not the one who can't see the forest for the trees

No....I don't see a contradiction there.

Did something happen between vss. 5 and 6 that the one who was ready ready to judge the quick and the dead had already preached to the dead?.

No. There's more to that passage than just those 2 verses. What leads you to believe that, in order for that to make sense, something needed to happen between those two verses? I'm not following your line of reasoning there.

 

[Der Alte]

You've posted you "believe in" the Apostle's Creed....and suggest that a few of us are following a different interpretation than you are. I'm unfamiliar with an alternate interpretation....but I'm curious to have you explain your (apparently--correct) interpretation, if it's not about Christ descending to the dead (based on 1st Peter 4).

I have been explaining my understanding of the scriptures, in question, all along. I don't know how I could make it any clearer. I don't recall saying I believed in the Apostles creed, I prefer the Nicene creed.
There is not one single vs. which says Jesus preached to the dead and certainly none that say any of the dead were saved.

 

[mkgal1]

I don't recall saying I believed in the Apostles creed, I prefer the Nicene creed.
There is not one single vs. which says Jesus preached to the dead and certainly none that say any of the dead were saved.

Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else.

1st Peter 4:6 is the verse that says Christ Jesus preached to the dead---but you're right....that doesn't necessarily mean they are "saved" (as in a "done deal"). Has anyone posted that? That's why the Apostle's Creed say, " He will come to judge the living and the dead."

However....I'm not clear on this:

1 Pet 3:19-20 states: "by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."

.....it does seem that eight people were "saved" (done deal/past tense) based on this.

 

[Der Alte]

No....I don't see a contradiction there.
No. There's more to that passage than just those 2 verses. What leads you to believe that, in order for that to make sense, something needed to happen between those two verses? I'm not following your line of reasoning there.

Of course there are more verses, there are 31,100 more verses but I can't think of one verse which will explain this.

1 Peter 4:5-6
(5) Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
(6) For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.​

Vs. 5 the one is ready to judge the quick and the dead, vs. 6 the dead have already been preached to. What happened between vss, 5 and 6?

 

[mkgal1]

I can't think of one verse which will explain this.
1 Peter 4:5-6
(5) Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
(6) For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.Vs. 5 the one is ready to judge the quick and the dead, vs. 6 the dead have already been preached to. What happened between vss, 5 and 6?

Why do you believe something happened? Do you mean the reference to "for this reason"?

>>"....so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."

 

[gordonhooker]

There is absolutely nothing questionable about my commentary on scripture. I quote from accredited Greek languages sources. If anyone thinks that their interpretation of the Apostle's creed or any other creed is superior to anything I post they need to prove it not just make assertions.

Where does 1 Pet 4:6 clearly state "that Jesus preached to those who are dead?"

1 Peter 4:6
(6) For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.​

Not sure you can get much clearer than this.......

these are from 5 translations including the KJV and the Message

NRSV
1Pet. 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

ESV
1Pet. 4:6 For this is why mthe gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

TEV
1Pet. 4:6 That is why the Good News was preached also to the dead, to those who had been judged in their physical existence as everyone is judged; it was preached to them so that in their spiritual existence they may live as God lives.

NIV
1Pet. 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead,a so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

KJV
1Pet. 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Even the Message says he preached the gospel to the dead.....

Message
1Pet. 4:6 Listen to the Message. It was preached to those believers who are now dead, and yet even though they died (just as all people must), they will still get in on the life that God has given in Jesus.

 

[Der Alte]

Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else.
1st Peter 4:6 is the verse that says Christ Jesus preached to the dead---but you're right....that doesn't necessarily mean they are "saved" (as in a "done deal"). Has anyone posted that? That's why the Apostle's Creed say, " He will come to judge the living and the dead."

1 Pet 4:6 does not say Jesus preached to anyone!

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.​

See the words Jesus, Christ or Lord do not occur in this verse.

However....I'm not clear on this:

1 Pet 3:19-20 states:

"by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."
.....it does seem that eight people were "saved" (done deal/past tense) based on this.

Out-of-context proof text. If Jesus was preaching to the dead in sheol, grave or hell, how is it that eight people alive on the earth, not in sheol where the preaching supposedly was going on, were saved?

1 Peter 3:19-20
(19) By which [the spirit, vs. 18] also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

Hell/the grave is never called "prison" and "prison" is never called hell/the grave anywhere in the Bible.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,​

Jesus' earthly ministry included preaching deliverance to the captives. The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoner of war."

 

[gordonhooker]

I have been explaining my understanding of the scriptures, in question, all along. I don't know how I could make it any clearer. I don't recall saying I believed in the Apostles creed, I prefer the Nicene creed.
There is not one single vs. which says Jesus preached to the dead and certainly none that say any of the dead were saved.

NRSV
1Pet. 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

ESV
1Pet. 4:6 For this is why mthe gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

TEV
1Pet. 4:6 That is why the Good News was preached also to the dead, to those who had been judged in their physical existence as everyone is judged; it was preached to them so that in their spiritual existence they may live as God lives.

NIV
1Pet. 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead,a so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

KJV
1Pet. 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Even the Message says he preached the gospel to the dead.....

Message
1Pet. 4:6 Listen to the Message. It was preached to those believers who are now dead, and yet even though they died (just as all people must), they will still get in on the life that God has given in Jesus.

 

[Der Alte]

NRSV
1Pet. 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.
ESV
1Pet. 4:6 For this is why mthe gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.
TEV
1Pet. 4:6 That is why the Good News was preached also to the dead, to those who had been judged in their physical existence as everyone is judged; it was preached to them so that in their spiritual existence they may live as God lives.
NIV
1Pet. 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead,a so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
KJV
1Pet. 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Even the Message says he preached the gospel to the dead.....
Message
1Pet. 4:6 Listen to the Message. It was preached to those believers who are now dead, and yet even though they died (just as all people must), they will still get in on the life that God has given in Jesus.

I'm not big on versions. Here is the Greek

1 Peter 4:6
(6) εις τουτο γαρ for to this "end" και also νεκροις to "the" dead ευηγγελισθη were the glad tidings announced, ινα that κριθωσιν they might be judged μεν indeed κατα as regards ανθρωπους men σαρκι in "the" flesh; ζωσιν δε but might live κατα as regards θεον GOD πνευματι in "the" spirit. ​

The words χριστος, κυριος/Christ, Lord do not occur anywhere in this vs.

 

[gordonhooker]

I'm not big on versions. Here is the Greek

1 Peter 4:6
(6) εις τουτο γαρ for to this "end" και also νεκροις to "the" dead ευηγγελισθη were the glad tidings announced, ινα that κριθωσιν they might be judged μεν indeed κατα as regards ανθρωπους men σαρκι in "the" flesh; ζωσιν δε but might live κατα as regards θεον GOD πνευματι in "the" spirit. ​

The words χριστος, κυριος/Christ, Lord do not occur anywhere in this vs.

OK so the translators throughout the age are all wrong and Der Alter has the correct wording.... you are not trolling are you? You also do realise that we have none of the original Greek either don't you?