Salvation?

[brinny]

He died on the cross.

I agree.

He did.

And......what happened before he died?

 

[Brian Mc]

I believe that Jesus would say that salvation is by following him (a commitment that is equivalent to what Paul referred to as faith), which means caring for others and showing it in action, humility and repentance, and forgiving others.

Both Jesus and Paul, while saying that we would be judged by our actions, were clear that we had to start with motivation. Jesus spoke of caring about others and obedience to him, Paul about faith. Without that, we get into legalism, which Jesus and Paul in varying ways condemned.

About Paul, it’s worth pointing out that justification was by faith, but not salvation or judgement. Indeed many scholars will tell you that Paul taught justification by faith and judgement by works.

My sense is that both aspects have to be there, that salvation consists of a life that includes both proper motivation (faith, obedience and love) and the resulting action, and that we get in trouble if we omit either.

Note by the way that Jesus seems to have emphasized positive action. That is, for him we would be judged by whether we made a difference for others, and not by whether we sinned, as sin is normally understood by Christians (which is violating rules). He certainly opposed sin, but didn’t speak of people ending up rejected because they sinned too much, but because they were useless to others, failed to obey his message, or because they failed to forgive others.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Salvation?


Do exactly what the repentant thief on the cross did.

Yes, if you are hanging on a cross.

Otherwise, do what the Jews did in ACTS, who got saved.
(not a popular option for many on this forum)

 

[brinny]

Yes, if you are hanging on a cross.

Otherwise, do what the Jews did in ACTS, who got saved.
(not a popular option for many on this forum)

I don't disagree, brother...

what did the thief do on the cross before he died?

 

[Brian Mc]

AS He has moulded and shaped me over the last 26+ years, I have found that early morning is when communication is best ....

Early each morning, as the symbol of His Light, the Sun, brings forth a new day, spend time in quiet meditation and listening to Him as you speak out, as you are directed, the Word of God .... verses from your Bible.

God, our Father, wishes that all people would be open to His calling .... (Christ Jesus said ...John 6:44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts {and} draws him {and} gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.).... and for all those who respond to that calling, as a step of faith and as a symbolic expression of that faith, be baptised, following the example Jesus showed .... whether it be in a river, a lake, a pond ... or even under a shower .... let the old self be washed away. Let Father make you a new creation and graft you into the Vine, to become part of the Body of Christ, producing fruit for Father’s glory.

1 Thess 5:18 Thank [God] in everything [no matter what the circumstances may be, be thankful and give thanks], for this is the will of God for you [who are] in Christ Jesus [the Revealer and Mediator of that will]. ...

Good morning Father. Thank You for Your plan of salvation. I love you Father. You loved the people of the world so much that You even gave Your Son....and I am Your son/child. I love you Father. I am so looking forward to spend eternity with You and Lord Jesus and all the saints (Your consecrated , set apart, special people).

Good morning Lord Jesus. Thank You for being obedient to Father by giving Yourself as a sacrifice on the cross for sin and death, as a free gift to all mankind ... for anyone who believes. I love You Lord Jesus.

Believe what He achieved on the cross ... full payment of all sin for all men ... the conquering of death by being risen from the dead by Father..... this free gift is available as soon as a person truly believes. His eternal life in me.

Lord Jesus, You died for me, to pay for all my sins, sickness, infirmity, etc – even if I was the only human on earth, Father and You love me so much and want me to be with You for eternity, You would have still done it all. Matt 8:17 And thus He fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah, He Himself took [in order to carry away] our weaknesses {and} infirmities and bore away our diseases. Is 53:4 Surely He has borne our griefs (sicknesses, weaknesses, and distresses) and carried our sorrows {and} pains [of punishment]. Thank You Lord, I love You.

John 15:5,7 You are the True Vine Lord (the Tree of Life); I am a branch (a small piece cut off the old Adam vine, cut off from the old life by Father ... the remainder of my old self was left to die at the Cross of Jesus. Father immediately grafted that small piece of me into You, to give me new life and I now dwell (live) in You and You live in me..... supplying all my needs so that as You make me strong and I am trimmed by Father, I will bear much (abundant) fruit for Father’s glory. As I dwell permanently and vitally united to You and Your words remain in me and continue to live in my heart, I am able to ask whatever I will and it shall be done for me. However, apart from You [cut off from vital union with You], I can do nothing.

Over time, the graft disappears, the branches and the Vine become One – as He is, so are they in this world – part of Him, His Body ...needed, used by Him to bear His fruit ... look at a tree, a shrub, a vine ... examples of Father’s plan is all around us ... simply rest and expect. Thank You Father and Lord Jesus – I love You. Holy Spirit deaden all fleshly influences, so that I totally trust and rely on Father, Lord Jesus and You .. my old man is dead. You are all I need Lord! I exist and live because of Your love, Your life in me.

My old self died with Jesus on the cross, but a small piece (twig) of me, cut off by Father was made alive through the Life of Lord Jesus now in me. I am a new spiritual creation. (2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh {and} new has come!) Your fruit Lord is produced and grows on me .. Your love, Your joy, Your peace, Your patience, Your kindness, Your goodness, Your faithfulness, Your gentleness, Your self-control ... as You are, so am I in this world .. a son of God.

Until I am taken off this earth, I will receive Your life Lord Jesus, Your cleansing blood and all that You are and have – moment by moment, so that I display to the world who You are and what You have done for mankind and what they can have – freedom from all suffering and oppression, sin and death – as part of Your Body living on earth – righteous before Father - loved and cared for by Father and His Holy Spirit. Thank You Father and Lord Jesus for loving me so much.

Jesus has already achieved the victory over sin and death (for all mankind). We are vessels to display this free gift.

He has authority over all things ... good or evil and He is living in and through me. I am part of His Body on earth!

As He (Lord Jesus) is, so am I (we) in this world. (1 John 4:17) A branch (s) grafted into Him, receiving all that He is and has – cleansing, purifying, strengthening, equipping, so that I (we) can bear much fruit for Father’s use and glory. (John 15) ... Father, that is all that You want .... Willing vessels on earth for You to live, love and work through ... the same as Jesus was. As with Jesus, You will supply all that is required for Your will to be done.

Read Eph 6:10-17. Your Spirit is covering me, ever ready to meet every need and equipping me for Your service.

My earth-suit is a vessel, as Jesus was on earth, doing Your will Father... not by might, nor by power, but by Your Spirit doing all through me. (Zech 4:6) .... Simply rest and expect.

So, in the Spirit, as commanded, and One with Them, join with the Holy Spirit and Lord Jesus (see Rom 8:27, 34) in interceding for all the saints. (Eph 6:18) ... we are in the end of the end times!

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love [dread does not exist], but full-grown (complete, perfect) love (Father’s love) turns fear out of doors {and} expels every trace of terror! For fear brings with it the thought of punishment, and [so] he who is afraid has not reached the full maturity of love - Christ Jesus in me ... the hope of glory! [is not yet grown into love's complete perfection]. Believe! Rest in Him and receive Father’s love. (Rom 8:39)

So rest in Him and His love for me and all fleshly influences will be washed away and His fruit (love) grows in me.

Love – Father’s love in us, constantly flowing into us from Lord Jesus. It never fails, never ends.

(So ...) Prov 3:5-8 - Lean on, trust in, {and} be confident in the Lord with all your heart {and} mind and do not rely on your own insight {or} understanding.(let Him do it all) In all your ways know, recognize, {and} acknowledge Him, and He will direct {and} make straight {and} plain your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; reverently fear {and} worship the Lord and turn [entirely] away from evil. It shall be health to your nerves {and} sinews, and marrow {and} moistening to your bones. Lord Jesus is the True Vine (the Tree of Life). Father draws us to Him (He has authority over the Cherubim who guards it) ... being grafted into Him, we receive (imparted to us)His Life, love, faith and all the power of His anointing. In His yoke He bears most of the load and is always beside me.

My Lord Jesus, what have You planned for me today? As it is no longer I who live, but You Lord Who live in me, moment by moment I receive Your Life and love from above and moment by moment I am washed with Your blood. Apart from You I can do nothing! My flesh died with You on the cross. Holy Spirit deaden all evil deeds prompted by the flesh (Rom 8:13) I am a part of Your Body on earth Lord Jesus – one of the branches on You (the True Vine) – each one at various stages of growth and fruit production .. 1 Cor 12:27

Jesus advised the people ... John 14:1 DO NOT let your hearts be troubled (distressed, agitated). You believe in {and} adhere to {and} trust in {and} rely on God; believe in {and} adhere to {and} trust in {and} rely also on Me.

... any person who is not a child of God (born again) can be a tool of Satan to influence others. Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

John 14:13 And I will do [I Myself will grant] whatever you ask in My Name [as presenting all that I AM], so that the Father may be glorified {and} extolled in (through) the Son.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter (Counsellor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, and Standby) ... Father’s (Holy) Spirit, that He may remain with you forever .

Luke 1:37 For with God nothing is ever impossible {and} no word from God shall be without power {or} impossible of fulfilment. .... simply believe!

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; My [own] peace I now give {and} bequeath to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. [Stop allowing yourselves to be agitated and disturbed; and do not permit yourselves to be fearful and intimidated and cowardly and unsettled.] ... I Lord Jesus, promise never to leave you or forsake you. Rest in Me and I will supply all your needs and Father’s love.

Trust and obey in Him and all His provision, there is no other way. Holy Spirit, You are Father’s armour, to equip me, to protect me from all the attacks from the world and to give me understanding .... right standing with Father ... His righteousness. No weapon formed against me will prosper ... Is 54:17 But no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper, and every tongue that shall rise against you in judgment you shall show to be in the wrong (Through Him being in you). This [peace, righteousness, security, triumph over opposition] is the heritage of the servants of the Lord [those in whom the ideal Servant of the Lord is reproduced]; this is the righteousness {or} the vindication which they obtain from Me [this is that which I impart to them as their justification], says the Lord.

The world wants me to put trust in myself, the things of this world and other people ... but Col 3:3 For [as far as this world is concerned] you have died, and your [new, real] life is hidden with Christ in God. Repent of any reliance on self or things of this world. My hope is built on nothing less, than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.

Col 3:17 And whatever you do [no matter what it is] in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus {and} in [dependence upon] His Person, giving praise to God the Father through Him. (It is no longer I who live!) ... my new creation vessel is representing Them on earth.

Phil 4:13 I have strength for all things in Christ Who empowers me [I am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him Who infuses inner strength into me; I am self-sufficient in Christ's sufficiency].

Fruit bearing is my role – He supplies the seeds from Himself so the fruit grows. It is no longer I who live, but Christ Jesus Who lives in me.... so empty all needs, fears, hurts, sickness, shortcomings, dislikes, confusions, questions, problems, concerns, difficulties , etc over to Lord Jesus ... let Him deal with them.

John 15:8 Bearing much fruit is honouring and glorifying to our Father as He is the Vinedresser and it is the will of Father that much fruit is produced ... for others to see and eat.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't disagree, brother...

what did the thief do on the cross before he died?

Bled.

 

[brinny]

Bled.

LOL! Yes, but in the midst of bleeding, what happened?

 

[ladodgers6]

That remark of mine was specifically linked to the mistranslation of that one word which I showed to you, the epi w, or eph w, the w being the relative pronoun referring to Death. You had this death as the result of our sin, and I had it as the cause of our sin, because it was the result of Adam's sin, and was not the result of our sin. Paul here agrees with me, and I showed that to you, which means that I "proved by Scripture" the error of your "position", because Scripture plainly states that "Death reigned over those who had not sinned like Adam." Hence your confusion over this eph w which you had confused with a bad translation which allowed it to be understood as kata w, meaning 'resulting in' death...

Sorry for the delay, been dealing with this heat wave. I did not want to debate with you, but share our beliefs, and learn from each other. I mean no disrespect to you or what you believe. I only share what I believe and why I believe it. And to clear up any caricatures of the Reformed Faith.

One thing I see in other views, is that they do not take the whole passages (vss. 12-21) as a unit. This is the common problem people do not see. That these passages are one in message. But people break them up, and that's where you encounter problems.

You said that my mistranslation: epi w (and you), eph w (You'm) in relative pronoun referring to death is incorrect. Thanks for your criticism, but I beg to differ.

I will quote one of my favorite theologians John Murray and his book, "The Imputation of Adam's Sin". We may not forget that the apostle is still dealing with his grand theme, justification by faith. In vss. 1-11 he had dealt with some consequences emanating from justification and with assurance toward God which these fruits evoked. What is the purpose of these (vss. 12-21) in relation to his theme?

The pivotal question is still before us: what sin does Paul have in view when he says, "in that all sinned"? In order to arrive at what we believe to be proper view it is necessary to take account of the following considerations.

(1) It is unquestionable that the universal sway of death is represented in vs.12 as resting upon the fact that "all sinned". Whatever the sin contemplated may be, it is the reason why death passed through to all men. And this is simply to say that it is the ground of the universality of death.

(2) In vss.15-19, however, Paul with unmistakable clearness asserts that the universal reign of death rests upon the one trespass of the one man Adam. "By the trespass of the one the many died" (vs.15); "By the trespass of the one death reigned through the one" (vs.17). And, of course, this relationship in reference to death is coordinate with and parallel to Paul's other statements in reference to condemnation. "The judgement was from one unto condemnation" (vs.16); "Through one trespass judgement came upon all men unto condemnation" (vs.18). Death and condemnation reign over all because of the one trespass of Adam.

Side note; It is not historically true. Not all die because they actually and voluntarily sin. Infants or children (depends on your view on when children actually sin) die and they do not voluntarily sin. But infants/children still die because of the one trespass of the one man Adam. Death still reigns over them.

(3) Are we suppose that Paul is dealing with two different facts when in verse 12 he grounds the death of all in the sin of all and when in vs. 15-17 he grounds that same death in the one trespass of Adam? Are we to think that in vs. 12 Paul is speaking of the sin which is personally and distributively universal either as action or as habitus whereas in vss. 15-19 he is speaking of sin in its specific singularity as the one trespass of the one man Adam? The conclusion to which the exegetical considerations drive us, is that this cannot be the case, but rather that Paul must have in view the same sin when in vs.12 he says, "all sinned" and when in vs. 15-19 he refers to the one sin of the one man Adam. The arguments establishing this conclusion are as follows.

(a) The whole passage (Rom. 5:12-19) is a unit. We cannot fail to see that the central structure is the analogy that obtains between the modus operandi of sin, condemnation, death, on the one hand, and of righteousness, justification, life On the other. In the nature of the case, since the latter complex is for the purpose of negating the first, there are significant and magnificent contrasts, and on these Paul elaborates. But the central strand is the parallelism, and even the contrasts are based upon the substructure. Since this is the case we are forced to conclude that the comparison introduced in vs.12, though broken off and not completed in the express terms which the protasis of vs.12 would suggest and dictate, is in essential thought identical with that which is stated in its completeness in vss. 18 and 19. This means that the sin referred to in verse 12, particularly in the last clause, must be that same sin that is defined in verse 18 as "the one trespass" and in verse 19 as "the disobedience of the one man". And when we go back to the three preceding verses (15-19) and bear in mind the closely knit unity of the passages, we must conclude that the same sin is in view in the verses 15,17 where it is called the trespass of the one.

(b) Verse 12 is an unfinished comparison. We only know of its apodosis from the following verses. It would be impossible to suppose that Paul, dealing expressly with the subject of the universal reign of death, should so explicitly and repeatedly affirm in the succeeding verses something quite different from that which he affirms in what is the unfinished introduction of his argument. If vs.12 were in a context of its own and if there were some plausible evidence of transition from one phase of teaching to another, then we could say that in verse 12 he deals with one fact and in verse 15-19 with another. But the fact that verse 12 doe not complete the comparison and relies upon the succeeding verses to supply this completion makes it totally impossible to posit any transition from one phase of truth to another.

(c) As far as actual personal sin is concerned vs. 14 excludes the possibility of interpreting the last clause of vs.12 in such terms. Verse 12 tells us the reason why death passed onto all men. It is that "all sinned". But verse 14 tells us that death reigned over those who did not sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression. The reign of death in verse 14 must have the same import as the passing on of death in verse 12. Hence Paul is saying that death passed onto and reigned over those who did not personally an voluntarily transgress as Adam did, and therefore the "all sinned" of verse 12 cannot refer to individual personal transgression.

For these reasons we are compelled to infer that when Paul says "all sinned" (vs.12) and when he speaks of the one trespass of the one man (vss.15-19) he must be referring to the same fact or event, that the one event or fact can be expressed in terms of both singularity and universality. If this identity confronts us, how are we to explain it? How can Paul say that "all sinned" and then that one sinned and refer to the same fact?

As we attempt to answer this question there is one error we must avoid. We must not tone down the singularity or the universality. Paul's language is eloquent of both. The only solution is that there must be some kind of solidarity existing between the "one" and the "all" with the result that the sin contemplated can be regarded at the same time and with equal relevance as the sin of the "one" or as the sin of "all". What this solidarity is, is the subject of the next main subdivision of our discussion. (John Murray).

The reason I used this with you is in honor of your belief in sola Scriptura, which constricts me in discussions with you to Scriptural issues where you are mis-understanding the written words... Hence by saying "Your confusion is with Scripture, not with me" I handed you off from any reliance on your part on me to the actual holy words of Scripture which accords with your doctrinal dogmatic of your sola...

Thanks dear friend. One of my motto's has been, to read everything you can get your hands on. I did not limit my reading to just Reformed sources. So whatever you have to offer, by all means, please share it. I just want the same from you, if I share something with you.

BTW, sola by other religions, have misunderstood what we mean by "SOLA". This has been caricatured by many.

Sorry if it sounded like a taunt - Re-reading it, it does indeed sound like a taunt, and I was not careful when I typed it, letting it go without editing it back so that it could not be a taunt. I remember at the time thinking: "Well, if it sounds like a taunt, I will let it sound like one, because I made the case for confusion of Scripture and he is [you are] not getting it." For this miscreance, I am verey sorry - I was trying to give you a jolt for a wake up for you, and that is not really mine to give. Please forgive a sinful old man named Arsenios.

Thank-you for your kind words...

Arsenios

Dear friend no need to apologize. I know I am stupid, and have limited comprehension. But praise be to God, for excellent teachers & theologians who have taught me a lot. I have benefited from the greatest minds in Christendom and only echo what I have learned.

The only place I am confused is with this term "Ontological". Are there synonyms for Ontological?

 

[ladodgers6]

Death did indeed reign... Your argument is with Paul... Look:

Paul records:
Rom 5:14
Nevertheless, Death reigned from Adam to Moses...

I stand for corrected. I was trying to drive home a point. Yes, death still reigned even if they did not sin like Adam. But death the consequence of Adam's original sin, still reign. In other words they have no excuse before God, even though their 'personal sins' are not counted or imputed to them, because there is no law between Adam & Moses. And where there is no Law, no sin can be counted or imputed against them.

Paul is making sure they understand the condition they stand before God, without having the Law convict sin. And if there is no sin, there is NO DEATH. This is what I was trying to convey. But yet death still reigned regardless of their 'personal sins' or not. They are under the condemnation of the one trespass of the one man Adam.

He further notes that sin was in the world but was not imputed until Moses gave the Law.

Exactly, Arsenios, why would Paul say such a statement if death is the cause of sin? Why would mentioning the Law here have any relevance between Adam & Moses? We are dead "IN" trespasses & sins.

Sin is the consequence of the reign of Death in the world for man in Adam who is dead because he broke one commandment.

I beg to differ, sin is not the consequence of death. Death came through sin. Paul explicitly affirms in Romans 5:12.

12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Romans 6:23 says, “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” At its core, sin is rebellion against God. Our sin separates us from God, the creator and sustainer of life.

Death reigned from Adam till Moses...

You are simply mistaken...

Arsenios

I did not want to debate with you, but to share our beliefs and learn from each other. I really enjoy our conversations about theology.

You know already that I beg to differ. Because those people between Adam & Moses, have no excuse, just like the Gentiles who did not have the Law.

Romans 2:14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them...


Death reigned between Adam & Moses because they were under the condemnation of the trespass of the one man Adam.

 

[Arsenios]

One thing I see in other views, is that they do not take the whole passages (vss. 12-21) as a unit. This is the common problem people do not see. That these passages are one in message. But people break them up, and that's where you encounter problems.

Yup...

You said that my mistranslation: epi w (and you), eph w (You'm) in relative pronoun referring to death is incorrect. Thanks for your criticism, but I beg to differ.

ephw [efo] is simply a contraction of epi + (h)w [epi ho]...

And it simply means: upon which
epi=upon
(h)w=which

The only place I am confused is with this term "Ontological". Are there synonyms for Ontological?

The difference between imputed and imparted
is the difference between juridical and ontological...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I stand for corrected. I was trying to drive home a point. Yes, death still reigned even if they did not sin like Adam. But death the consequence of Adam's original sin, still reign. In other words they have no excuse before God, even though their 'personal sins' are not counted or imputed to them, because there is no law between Adam & Moses. And where there is no Law, no sin can be counted or imputed against them.

So they sin outside the Law, because there IS NO LAW... Only the Jews had the Law, and it was given by Moses... That is why it is death, and not sin, that is ruling from Adam to Moses... And as Paul clearly states, it is upon Death that all have sinned, even though they do not sin as Adam sinned...

We inherit death from Adam, and upon that death, we all have sinned... Paul's words...

Paul is making sure they understand the condition they stand before God, without having the Law convict sin. And if there is no sin, there is NO DEATH. This is what I was trying to convey. But yet death still reigned regardless of their 'personal sins' or not. They are under the condemnation of the one trespass of the one man Adam.

We are born dead... Because Adam was dead when he sired his sons and daughters... We inherit his death... Adam's life is death...

He further notes that sin was in the world but was not imputed until Moses gave the Law.

Exactly, Arsenios, why would Paul say such a statement if death is the cause of sin? Why would mentioning the Law here have any relevance between Adam & Moses? We are dead "IN" trespasses & sins.

Because sin actually exists, eg it exists ontologically, even when it is not imputed by the Law...

I beg to differ, sin is not the consequence of death. Death came through sin. Paul explicitly affirms in Romans 5:12.

12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through (that one) sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

This is the ephw you keep getting wrong... You just did it again... It does not mean because, but instead means "upon which"...

Death reigned between Adam & Moses because they were under the condemnation of the trespass of the one man Adam.

Adams progeny are all born dead, because Adam was dead when he sired them...

Arsenios

 

[ladodgers6]

ephw [efo] is simply a contraction of epi + (h)w [epi ho]...

And it simply means: upon which
epi=upon
(h)w=which

When I used a translator, it translated epi w into (and you) epi w (You'm). But thanks for the translation.

The difference between imputed and imparted

This I know.

is the difference between juridical and ontological...

Arsenios

Juridical I also know. But how these two relate or are distinctive I do not understand. Because when I researched Ontological I get:

Ontological
ADJECTIVE

1. relating to the branch of metaphysics dealing with the nature of being:
   "ontological arguments"
2. showing the relations between the concepts and categories in a subject area or domain:
   "an ontological database" ·
   

 

[ladodgers6]

So they sin outside the Law, because there IS NO LAW... Only the Jews had the Law, and it was given by Moses... That is why it is death, and not sin, that is ruling from Adam to Moses...

Well, Paul says in Romans vs.12, that death came through sin. And death reigned because of the one trespass of the one man Adam (vss. 15-19). So the reason why death reigns between Adam & Moses is because of that one trespass of the one man. They are 'ALREADY' condemned people between Adam & Moses.

Verse 16...The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation,....Verse 18Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,...

So their 'SINNING' between Adam & Moses does not count against them, because there is no Law. But that does not matter because they are 'ALREADY' condemned in sin & death; in that one trespass of that one man; like when Adam broke the command. It is already rendered against those between Adam & Moses, and is why death reigns over them.

And as Paul clearly states, it is upon Death that all have sinned, even though they do not sin as Adam sinned...

No sir, it says, 12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin...

We inherit death from Adam, and upon that death, we all have sinned... Paul's words...

Well you know where I stand on this point. We are dead 'IN' trespasses & sins. This is how we are to understand Paul in Romans 5.

I will attempt to provide hopefully a useful analogy. Its like a person who commits murder; this person is convicted by the court to death. This person is sent to prison's death row; awaiting death. It not does not matter what this person does in prison. This person can be the best inmate ever, or the worst ever. This will not effect the death that reigns over him. The sentence has been rendered. The only thing that can change this, is a called from the Governor to render clemency on this ungodly person. Hope this helps.

We are born dead... Because Adam was dead when he sired his sons and daughters... We inherit his death... Adam's life is death...

Yes, I agree with you here. But the Reformed View takes it further, and says that we are dead 'IN' trespasses & sins. So we are born dead....IN sin.

Psalms 51:5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Because sin actually exists, eg it exists ontologically, even when it is not imputed by the Law...

I beg to differ, sin is not the consequence of death. Death came through sin. Paul explicitly affirms in Romans 5:12.

12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through (that one) sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

This is the ephw you keep getting wrong... You just did it again... It does not mean because, but instead means "upon which"...

Before I point something about this. I have a question. What version of the Bible are you using? I thought I remember you or somebody from the EOC position saying that you guys use the King James version, is that correct? Or direct me to what Bible version states "upon which", because I cannot find it.

Adams progeny are all born dead, because Adam was dead when he sired them...

Arsenios

Yes, I agreed to this earlier. But you are missing the other evil; sin upon which death entered.

 

[Arsenios]

Well, Paul says in Romans vs.12, that death came through sin. And death reigned because of the one trespass of the one man Adam (vss. 15-19). So the reason why death reigns between Adam & Moses is because of that one trespass of the one man.

You have it - Death reigns, not sin...
Paul does not say "Sin reigns and death is the result."
Death was ONLY the result of Adam's ONE sin...
Adam died the very day he sinned...

I have a question. What version of the Bible are you using?

We use the Bible of which the King James edition is a VERSION...
That is the Byzantine Greek Text...
That is why I have been at pains to translate EPHW for you...
It is a contraction of two words, EPI + hW, and literally means: "UPON WHICH"...
All the English Bibles are versions of our texts. We have been the keepers of the Holy Texts for 2000 years now...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Yes, I agreed to this earlier. But you are missing the other evil; sin upon which death entered.

That sin caused death for us all...
And it is upon that death, as Paul writes, that ALL have sinned...

Scripture is very clear on this...

No ambiguity whatsoever...

ONLY Adam's sin caused his death...
IN Adam, all inherit Adam's Death...
Upon that inherited Death, all have sinned...

Arsenios

 

[ladodgers6]

You have it - Death reigns, not sin...
Paul does not say "Sin reigns and death is the result."
Death was ONLY the result of Adam's ONE sin...
Adam died the very day he sinned...

I do not want to debate with you Arsenios. I only wanted to share, and learn from each other. But it seems that is not the case. You want to debate. And that is fine. I just wanted to understand the EOC position better, but I also have no problem debating the topic at hand.

You are stuck that death is the cause of sin. This does not even make sense logically. So I will quote Paul again in Romans 5:12.

12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

This is lucid and concise how death came to Adam & all. Through sin, there is no way of getting around this, Arsenios. Paul says that death reign between Adam & Moses, even when their sins are not counted against them, because there was not Law. I keep repeating myself here, because I believe you are not reading my replies fully, or are taking the time to understand them. Death reigns because those people between Adam & Moses are 'ALREADY' condemned to death!

Like a death row inmate who awaits his demise. Death reigns over him/her. They actions or habits does not change this fact of death reigning over them.

We use the Bible of which the King James edition is a VERSION...
That is the Byzantine Greek Text...
That is why I have been at pains to translate EPHW for you...
It is a contraction of two words, EPI + hW, and literally means: "UPON WHICH"...
All the English Bibles are versions of our texts. We have been the keepers of the Holy Texts for 2000 years now...

Arsenios

In the King James Bible it does not translate epi w into upon which. Do you know why that is?

 

[ladodgers6]

That sin caused death for us all...
And it is upon that death, as Paul writes, that ALL have sinned...

Scripture is very clear on this...

No ambiguity whatsoever...

ONLY Adam's sin caused his death...
IN Adam, all inherit Adam's Death...
Upon that inherited Death, all have sinned...

Arsenios

How did sin cause death for us all?

Why is death the only thing that we inherit?

So sin after we die in Adam has no consequences?

We inherit Adam's death and sin flows from our death in Adam. How then is sin not inherited if Adam's sin caused death for us all?

 

[Wordkeeper]

How did sin cause death for us all?

Sin caused us to be out of the Garden. Separation from God is death.

Why is death the only thing that we inherit?

Because we are not guilty of Adams sin, but our own sins.

So sin after we die in Adam has no consequences?

Until Moses gave the law. But still men died (we're separated from God, even though we did not do what Adam did to suffer that result.

We inherit Adam's death and sin flows from our death in Adam. How then is sin not inherited if Adam's sin caused death for us all?

See above.

 

[ladodgers6]

How did sin cause death for us all?

Sin caused us to be out of the Garden. Separation from God is death.

This is to ambiguous, can you be more specific. How did sin cause us to be cast out of the Garden? I guess I will be more specific in the question. How did Adam sin that caused death to all?

Why is death the only thing that we inherit?

Because we are not guilty of Adams sin, but our own sins.

This response presents more problems. If according to you, if it is not us that sinned in the Garden. Then why do we get punished for something we did not do? You place the consequence of Adam's sin on us, but leave out what actually caused this judgement, why?

So sin after we die in Adam has no consequences?

Until Moses gave the law. But still men died (we're separated from God, even though we did not do what Adam did to suffer that result.

Huh? People between Adam & Moses were already condemned in Adam to death. Their personal sins does not matter here, because there was no law, and where there is no Law, no sin is counted against them. But death still reigned because of the sentence of condemnation unto death in Adam. This you guys agree too, but for some reason do not want to accept this, why?

We inherit Adam's death and sin flows from our death in Adam. How then is sin not inherited if Adam's sin caused death for us all?

See above.

If you really stop and think about what you just wrote. You will see that it is inconsistent. We receive death for something we did not do. But death is the cause of our death??? Paul clearly says that death came through sin. And in Romans 6 Paul says the wages 'OF' sin is death. In Ephesians 2 Paul say we are dead 'IN' trespasses & sins. In Psalms 51:5, King David, 5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Christ the Pascal Lamb is our final sin offering that is needed to save his people from their sins. His resurrection is our freedom from death, when He was raised for our Justification. So both evils are taken of in Christ, not JUST death. That's why I find it hard to understand your view point.

 

[def]

We inherit Adam's death and sin flows from our death in Adam. How then is sin not inherited if Adam's sin caused death for us all? Thanks.

See above.

Where exactly in the Bible that says we inherit Adam's death? Thanks.