Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

[ClementofA]

Daniel 12:2 in the LXX is less significant for discovering the meaning of αἰώνιον in Matthew 25:46 than the use of αἰώνιον in the NT because the LXX was produced a century or two before the NT was written and usage changes with time. One or two centuries is a significant time for Koine Greek just like it is for English. Thus what the translators of Hebrew words thought αἰώνιον meant when the LXX was in the process of being created is not nearly as important as what NT authors thought αἰώνιον meant when the NT was being created for deciding the meaning of αἰώνιον in Matthew 25:46.

Is this your pet opinion? How many scholars would agree that the word aionios in the Greek OT has a different meaning than aionios in the NT?

BTW, my argument re Daniel 12:2-3 was based on the inspired Hebrew OT & the word OLAM, not the Greek LXX word aionios. OLAM is generally translated as aion or aionios in the LXX.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

...

 

[Der Alte]

Did you miss my comment about us debating this in dozens of posts last year? If you want to find "direct quotes", look there. Why would i want to waste my time regurgitating the same again? Boring!
Read the 900 page book with quotes in the original languages (unlike your mistranslated blasphemies), if the subject interests you so much.

I went to your church fathers link and I found the same thing I objected to earlier. There is an alleged quote and a name attached to it but no, zero, none identify the specific writing the alleged quote is from. Just more "This guy said this, that guy said that and some other guy said something else." That link will fail in any class in any college in the country. I showed you how to properly cite the ECF; the name of the writer, the name of the writing, the chapter and section if listed

Thanks again for the biased English only opinions falsely called translations.

Unless you have a few semesters of Koine Greek you have no credible basis to determine anything is falsely translated. I am no expert but I have studied Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level, one of my professors, Dr. Roger Omanson, had been on the NIV translation committee.

They provide no proof of your claims, as also likewise this:

* * * Irrelevant link omitted * * *

As I said no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence, emphasis on verifiable, at your link. A statement with a name attached to it means nothing unless it can be verified via the name of the specific work the alleged quote is from. Heterodox groups have a penchant for selective quoting and out-of-context quoting.
בטח אל־יהוה בכל־לבך ואל־בינתך אל־תשׁען׃

 

[Der Alte]

Is this your pet opinion? How many scholars would agree that the word aionios in the Greek OT has a different meaning than aionios in the NT?
BTW, my argument re Daniel 12:2-3 was based on the inspired Hebrew OT & the word OLAM, not the Greek LXX word aionios. OLAM is generally translated as aion or aionios in the LXX.

Nothing you have posted and I am certain nothing you could post will refute this entry from BDB.

עוֹלָם S5769, 5865 TWOT1631a GK6409, 6518439 n.m. long duration, antiquity, futurity;—ע׳ Gn 9:12 + 405 times; עֹלָם 3:22 + 19 times; עֵילוֹם 2 Ch 33:7, read prob. עוֹלָם (for other explan. v. note in KitHpt); sf. עֹלָמוֹ Ec 12:5; pl. עוֹלָמִים Is 26:4 + 7 times, עֹלָמִים ψ 145:13 + 2 times; cstr. עוֹלְמֵי Is 45:17;—† 1. of past time: a. ancient time: יְמֵי ע׳ days of old Is 63:9, 11 Am 9:11 Mi 5:1; 7:14 Mal 3:4; יְמוֹת ע׳ Dt 32:7; עַם ע׳ Is 44:7 ancient people; גּוֹי מֵע׳ Je 5:15; חָרְבוֹת ע׳ old waste places Is 58:12 61:4, cf. Ez 26:20 b; פִּתְחֵי ע׳ ancient gates ψ 24:7, 9; ארח ע׳ Jb 22:15; נתבות ע׳ Je 6:16; שְׁבִילֵי ע׳ 18:15; גבול ע׳ Pr 22:28; 23:10; במות ע׳ Ez 36:2; מִן (םֵ)ע׳ from of old Is 64:3 Je 2:20 Jo 2:2, of the fathers Jos 24:2, the prophets Je 28:8, the ancient נפלים Gn 6:4; (Ez 32:27 G Co for מערלים; but 1 S 27:8 read מִטֵּלָם for מעולם We Dr HPS); בהם ע׳ long in them Is 64:4 (text dub.). b. מֵתֵי ע׳ the long dead ψ 143:3 La 3:6; so עַם ע׳ Ez 26:20. c. of God, מֵע׳: former acts Is 46:9; as redeemer Is 63:16; of love ψ 25:6, judgment 119:52, dominion Is 63:19; long silence 42:14; 57:11 G B Michaelis conj. מַעְלִם for מֵעוֹלָם; cf. I. [עָלַם] Hiph. ψ 10:1; his wisdom personif. Pr 8:23; his existence ψ 93:2. d. of things: גבעות ע׳ ancient hills Gn 49:26 (J), Hb 3:6 (|| הררי־עד), Dt 33:15 (|| הררי קדם). e. pl. שְׁנוֹת עולמים ψ 77:6 years of ancient times; דורות עולמים Is 51:9; לעלמים Ec 1:10 in olden times. 2. a. indef. futuring, c. prep. for ever, always (sometimes = during the lifetime); עֶבֶד עולם slave for ever Dt 15:17 1 S 27:12 Jb 40:28; עָבַד לע׳ serve for ever Ex 21:6 (E), Lv 25:46; עד ע׳ 1 S 1:22; גְּאֻלַּת ע׳ Lv 25:32 redemption at any time; הֲרַת ע׳ Je 20:17 ever pregnant (womb); כְּלִמַּת ע׳ v 11 of persecutors of Jeremiah; חרפת ע׳ 23:40; שַׁלְוֵי ע׳ ψ 73:12 alway at ease; יְחִי לע׳ (יחיה) may the king live alway 1 K 1:31 Ne 2:3; cf. אֹרֶךְ יָמִים עולם ועד ψ 21:5; ישׁב עולם לפני אלהים 61:8; so of the pious, לע׳ לא ימוט 15:5; בל ימוט Pr 10:30, cf. ψ 30:7; other phr.: ψ 37:27, 28 41:13; 55:23; 61:8; 73:26; 121:8 Pr 10:25; ע׳ אשׁירה ψ 89:2 I will sing for ever (as long as I live), cf. 52:10; 115:18; 145:1, 2; הוֹדה לע׳ 30:13; 44:9; 52:11; 79:13; other emotions and activities continuous through life 5:12; 31:2 = 71:1, 75:10; 86:12; 119:44, 93, 98, 111, 112 Mi 4:5, cf. לע׳ 2:9. b. = continuous existence, (1) of things: the earth, הָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמֶדֶת Ec 1:4; other phr.: ψ 78:69; 104:5, heavens and contents 148:6, ruined cities Is 25:2; 32:14 Ez 26:21; 27:36; 28:19, ruined lands Je 18:16; 25:9, 12; 49:13, 33; 51:26, 62 Ez 35:9 Zp 2:9; לעד עד ע׳ Is 30:8 for a witness for ever, in a book; (2) of nations: לעולם אהיה 47:7 (Babylon loqu.), cf. ψ 81:16 Ob 10; ישׁב לע׳ of Judah Jo 4:20; (3) families ψ 49:12 Is 14:20; the dynasty of Saul 1 S 13:13; house of Eli 2:30; (4) national relations: איבת ע׳ continual enmity Ez 25:15; 35:5; of exclusion from קהל י׳, עד ע׳ Dt 23:4 = Ne 13:1; various relations Is 32:17; 34:10; חרפת ע׳ perpetual reproach ψ 78:66, of dynasty of David 2 S 3:28; 12:10 1 K 2:33, families v 33 2 K 5:27 ψ 106:31 Je 35:6. c. of divine existence: אל עולם Gn 21:33 (J); אלהי ע׳ Is 40:28; חי אנכי לע׳ Dt 32:40; חֵי הע׳ Dn 12:7; of divine name, זה שׁמי לְע׳ Ex 3:15 (E), cf. 2 Ch 33:7 (v. supr.); blessing and praise of it 2 S 7:26 = 1 Ch 17:24, ψ 72:19; 135:13; of י׳ himself89:53; attributes, אהבה Je 31:3 1 K 10:9; חסד Is 54:8 ψ 89:2; 138:8; לע׳ חַסְדּוֹ 1 Ch 16:34, 41 2 Ch 5:13; 7:3, 6; 20:21 Ezr 3:11 ψ 100:5; 106:1; 107:1; 118:1, 2, 3, 4, 29; 136:1 + 25 times, Je 33:11; כבוד ψ 104:31; אמת 117:2; 146:6; צדק 119:142; עצה 33:11; reign Ex 15:18 (E), ψ 10:16; 66:7; 92:9; 146:10 Je 10:10 Mi 4:7; יהוה לע׳ ישׁב ψ 9:8; 29:10; 102:13 La 5:19; presence in Zion 1 Ch 23:25 Is 33:14; 60:19, 20 Ez 37:28; 43:7, 9; his salvation Is 51:6, 8; זרעת ע׳ Dt 33:27 everlasting arms; כל אשׁר יעשׂה האלהים יהיה לע׳ Ec 3:14. d. of God’s covenant: בְּרִית ע׳ everlasting covenant Gn 9:16; 17:7, 13, 19 Ex 31:16 Lv 24:8 Nu 18:19 (all P), 2 S 23:5 1 Ch 16:17 = ψ 105:10, Is 24:5; 55:3; 61:8 Je 32:40; 50:5 Ez 16:60; 37:26; covenant with Noah, לְדֹרֹת ע׳ Gn 9:12 (P); God remembers it 1 Ch 16:15 = ψ 105:8, ψ 111:5; will not break it, לע׳ Ju 2:1; אוֹת ע׳ Ex 31:17 (P); אוֹת עד ע׳ Dt 28:46. e. of God’s laws: דבר(ים) Is 59:21 ψ 119:89; משׁפט 119:160; עדות v 144, 152; חק ע׳ Ex 29:28; 30:21 (E), Lv 6:11, 15; 7:34; 10:15; 24:9 Nu 18:8, 11, 19 (P), also Je 5:22 (of bounds of sea); חק עד ע׳ Ex 12:24 (J), חֻקַּת ע׳ v 14, 17; 27:21; 28:43; 29:9 Lv 3:17; 7:36; 10:9; 16:29, 31, 34; 17:7; 23:14, 21, 31, 41; 24:3, 8 Nu 10:8; 15:15; 18:23; 19:10, 21 (P) (most of these in fact specif. Jewish and temporary); temple to bear God’s name, עד ע׳ 1 K 9:3 = 2 Ch 7:16; לע׳ 2 K 21:7 2 Ch 33:4; consecrated לע׳ 30:8; its ceremonies לע׳ 2:3; Levit. priesthood, לשׁרתו עד ע׳ 1 Ch 15:2; Aaronic priesthood, לברך בשׁמי עד ע׳ 23:13(×2). f. of God’s promises: his word, יקום לע׳ Is 40:8; promised dynasty of David, עד (ה)ע׳ 2 S 7:13, 16(×2), 25 = 1 Ch 17:12, 14(×2), 23 ψ 18:51 = 2 S 22:51, 1 K 2:33, 45 1 Ch 22:10 ψ 89:5; לע׳ 1 K 9:5 1 Ch 28:4, 7 2 Ch 13:5 ψ 89:29, 37 2 S 7:29(×2) = 1 Ch 17:27(×2); of holy land 1 Ch 28:8, אֲחֻזַּת ע׳ Gn 17:8; 48:4 Lv 25:34 (P); given לע׳ Ex 32:13 (J) 2 Ch 20:7; עד ע׳ Gn 13:15, inherited לע׳ Is 60:21 ψ 37:18; עד ע׳ Is 34:17; dwelt in עד ע׳ Ez 37:25; other blessings, לע׳ Dt 5:29 Ho 2:21; עד ע׳ Dt 12:28 2 S 7:24 = 1 Ch 17:22, ψ 133:3; שִׂמְחַת ע׳ Is 35:10; 51:11; 61:7; דֶּרֶךְ ע׳ ψ 139:24; שׁם ע׳ Is 56:5; 63:12; אות ע׳ 55:13; גאון ע׳ 60:15; Jerus. to abide לע׳ Je 17:25 ψ 125:1, cf. Je 31:40; עד ע׳ ψ 48:9. g. of relations between God and his people, לע׳ 1 Ch 29:18 ψ 45:18; 85:6; 103:9; 145:21 Is 57:16 Je 3:5, 12 La 3:31 Jo 2:26, 27; עד (ה)ע׳ ψ 28:9 Mal 1:4. h. of Messianic dynasty and king: (ל)ע׳ ψ 110:4; having divine throne 45:7; name endures 72:17; established 89:38; God blesses him 45:3; of his reign, מעתה ועד ע׳ Is 9:6. i. = indefinite, unending future: live לע׳ Gn 3:22 Jb 7:16; הנביאים הלע׳ יִחְיוּ Zc 1:5 the prophets, can they live for ever? cf. חדל לע׳ ψ 49:9; c. neg. never Ezr 9:12 Pr 27:24. j. after death: שׁנת ע׳ Je 51:39, 57; בית ע׳ Ec 12:5; חַיֵּי ע׳ Dn 12:2; דראון ע׳ v 2; also v 3 Jon 2:7 Ec 2:16; 9:6. k. = age (duration) of the world: את העלם נתן בְּלִבָּם Ec 3:11 the age of the world he hath set, etc. (cf. especially NH; others i). 1. pl. intens. everlastingness, eternity: תשׁועת עולמים Is 45:17; צדק עלמים Dn 9:24; צור עולמים Is 26:4 (RVm rock of ages); מלכוּת כל עלמים ψ 145:13; also 61:5; 77:8 1 K 8:13 = 2 Ch 6:2. m. special phr.: ם(ה)עולם (ו)עד (ה)עולם (מן) from everlasting to everlasting, of י׳ ψ 90:2, חסד י׳ 103:17; benedictions 1 Ch 16:36 = ψ 106:48, Ne 9:5 1 Ch 29:10 ψ 41:14; the land given למן עולם ועד עולם Je 7:7; 25:5; מעתה ועד עולם from now and for ever ψ 115:18; 121:8 (i.e. as long as one lives); of people’s hope in God 131:3; dynasty of David Is 9:6; of God’s acts, words, etc. Mi 4:7 Is 59:21 ψ 125:2, cf. 113:2;—v. further i. עַד p. 723.
Brown, Francis ; Driver, Samuel Rolles ; Briggs, Charles Augustus:[BDB] Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. electronic ed. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, 2000, S. 761​

 

[GingerBeer]

How many scholars would agree that the word aionios in the Greek OT has a different meaning than aionios in the NT?

A majority as far as I know.

 

[ClementofA]

A majority as far as I know.

What evidence is there of that or the theory that aionios in the OT meant anything different in the NT writings whose authors used the OT to help form their writings?

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

Nothing you have posted and I am certain nothing you could post will refute this entry from BDB.

​

How did it refute or even address anything i said in your response?

And what makes you think i would have even the slightest interest in refuting it?

BTW you've never refuted the book at the url below & never will.

Though i'm interested in refuting you, as in, for an example:

Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment,
He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.

Actually He did correct them in a number of ways:

1) He told the self righteous Pharisees, who thought they would escape hell, that they were headed there.

2) His teachings rejected the Sadducees belief about there being no hell.

Therefore, to use your own reasoning, since Jesus did...correct them...their teaching about hell must have been wrong.

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf



​

 

[GingerBeer]

What evidence is there of that or the theory that aionios in the OT meant anything different in the NT writings whose authors used the OT to help form their writings?

You appear to be avoiding the issue in this thread. Matthew 25:46 is not in the OT.

 

[ClementofA]

You appear to be avoiding the issue in this thread. Matthew 25:46 is not in the OT.

How am i avoiding it? I posted a number of long replies & you didn't respond to the vast majority of what was said in them.

I also asked: "What evidence is there of that or the theory that aionios in the OT meant anything different in the NT writings whose authors used the OT to help form their writings?" Which brought your response above. Were you avoiding answering that question?

Obviously Mt.25:46 isn't in the OT, but aionios is in both the Greek OT & Mt.25:46.

 

[ClementofA]

Thank you for clarifying that.

Can you provide any early church father's writings where they teach that αἰώνιον means "a long time" and does not mean "eternal" in Matthew 25:46?

This comment concerns Origen's view re Matthew 25:41:

"In reference to Matt 25:41 he remarks: “the devil and his angels will be transferred to the αἰώνιον fire when the Lord Jesus Christ will sit as a king and judge and will say to those who will have triumphed over evil earlier or later: ‘Come, blessed of my Father, to inherit the Kingdom prepared for you by my Father.’ But to the others he will say: ‘Go to the αἰώνιον fire prepared by God for the devil and his angels,’ until he will take care of every soul with the remedies that he alone knows, and ‘all of Israel will be saved’ [Rom 11:26]” (Hom.in Ies. Nav. 8,5). 1Cor 3:12 is interpreted in the same cathartic sense in Princ. 1,1; CC 5,15 (the αἰώνιον fire burns the “wood, straw, and stubble” of evil in souls); Hom. in Ex. 6,3; Hom. in Lev.14,3. It is the “perversity of habits” of each one that aliments this fire (Hom. in Ier. 5,15)." (p.186)

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: The Reviews Start Coming In
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

 

[GingerBeer]

This comment concerns Origen's view re Matthew 25:41

Origin is not an early church father and Matthew 25:41 is not Matthew 25:46.

 

[ClementofA]

Origin is not an early church father and Matthew 25:41 is not Matthew 25:46.

Clearly v41 is not v46, though they are of the same context. And both refer to an aionios punishment of sorts. In fact the punishment in v.46 seems very closely related to that in v.41.

Origen, spelled Origen, not Origin, is not an Early Church Father?

Early Church Fathers

 

[GingerBeer]

Origin, is not an Early Church Father?

That's right. Some of his views are regarded as heretical or near heretical so he was never canonised as a saint in the West and never regarded as a church father. He is, of course, a writer from the period of the early church, but then so was Arius.

 

[Der Alte]

This comment concerns Origen's view re Matthew 25:41:
"In reference to Matt 25:41 he remarks: “the devil and his angels will be transferred to the αἰώνιον fire when the Lord Jesus Christ will sit as a king and judge and will say to those who will have triumphed over evil earlier or later: ‘Come, blessed of my Father, to inherit the Kingdom prepared for you by my Father.’ But to the others he will say: ‘Go to the αἰώνιον fire prepared by God for the devil and his angels,’ until he will take care of every soul with the remedies that he alone knows, and ‘all of Israel will be saved’ [Rom 11:26]” (Hom.in Ies. Nav. 8,5). 1Cor 3:12 is interpreted in the same cathartic sense in Princ. 1,1; CC 5,15 (the αἰώνιον fire burns the “wood, straw, and stubble” of evil in souls); Hom. in Ex. 6,3; Hom. in Lev.14,3. It is the “perversity of habits” of each one that aliments this fire (Hom. in Ier. 5,15)." (p.186)

Irrelevant gossip without identifying which, if any, of Origen's writings he allegedly said any of this. I did find this quote in Origen, Against Celsus. Book VI, Chap LXX.

In the same way, too, if sins are called “wood, and straw, and stubble,” we shall not maintain that sins are corporeal; and if blessings are termed “gold, and silver, and precious stones,” (cf. 1Co_3:12) we shall not maintain that blessings are “corporeal;” so also, if God be said to be a fire that consumes wood, and straw, and stubble, and all substance of sin, we shall not understand Him to be a “body,” so neither do we understand Him to be a body if He should be called “fire.” ​

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)
[ * * * Irrlevant Links Omitted * * * ]

 

[claninja]

From reading these the best we can say is ClementA was contradictory and does not completely support either eternal punishment or universalism.

––• Fragments of Clemens Alexandrinus II. -
Wherefore, he says, “men of this kind are carried about both by winds and violent blasts.”15 “Trees,” he says, “of autumn, without fruit,” - unbelievers, that is, who bear no fruit of fidelity. “Twice dead,” he says: once, namely, when they sinned by transgressing, and a second time when delivered up to punishment, according to the predestined judgments of God; inasmuch as it is to be reckoned death, even when each one does not forthwith deserve the inheritance. … Enoch also, the seventh from Adam,” he says, (Jud_1:14) “prophesied of these.” In these words he verities the prophecy….When Daniel speaks of the people and comes into the presence of the Lord, he does not say this, because he saw God: for it is impossible that any one whose heart is not pure should see God; …
• Clement Alexandrinus Who Is the Rich Man that Shall Be Saved? Chap XXXIII.
For though sparing, and aiming at testing, who will receive meritoriously or not, it is possible for you to neglect some19 that are loved by God; the penalty for which is the punishment of eternal fire.
O the prodigious folly of being ashamed of the Lord! He offers freedom, you flee into bondage; He bestows salvation, you sink down into destruction; He confers everlasting life, you wait for punishment, and prefer the fire which the Lord “has prepared for the devil and his angels.”
• Clement Alexandrinus Exhortation to the Heathen. Chap. VII.
Chap X And you know not that, of all truths, this is the truest, that the good and godly shall obtain the good reward, inasmuch as they held goodness in high esteem; while, on the other hand, the wicked shall receive meet punishment. For the author of evil, torment has been prepared; and so the prophet Zecharias threatens him: “He that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee; lo, is not this a brand plucked from the fire?” (Zec_3:2) What an infatuated desire, then, for voluntary death is this, rooted in men’s minds! Why do they flee to this fatal brand, with which they shall be burned, when it is within their power to live nobly according to God, and not according to custom? For God bestows life freely; but evil custom, after our departure from this world, brings on the sinner unavailing remorse with punishment.
• Clement Alexandrinus The Stromata, Or Miscellanies. Book VI.
Chap VI Did not the same dispensation obtain in Hades, so that even there, all the souls, on hearing the proclamation, might either exhibit repentance, or confess that their punishment was just, because they believed not? And it were the exercise of no ordinary arbitrariness, for those who had departed before the advent of the Lord (not having the Gospel preached to them, and having afforded no ground from themselves, in consequence of believing or not) to obtain either salvation or punishment.​

I would say the same with Origen. He appears to sometimes favor universalism and sometimes favor ECT. Justin the Martyr also appears to believe in both ECT with the possibility Annihilationism, as he states in Chapter V.—The soul is not in its own nature immortal.

We also know that its possible the early church fathers were converted pagans. There is no doubt then, that their philosophical views would have played roles in how they interpreted scripture.

 

[Der Alte]

How did it refute or even address anything i said in your response?
And what makes you think i would have even the slightest interest in refuting it?
BTW you've never refuted the book at the url below & never will.​

​

That is true because I will never address any book or website you link to. Reason being I am having a discussion here at this forum supposedly with you, not tentmakers and not any piece of scribbling they promote at their website. If you can say in your own words what you believe and, if you choose, support it with scripture and/or credible, verifiable, historical evidence, then bring it otherwise I well ignore it. If you can get one of the writers you keep touting to come here I will gladly have a discussion directly with them. I do not address second hand canned arguments copy/pasted from random websites.

 

[ClementofA]

Irrelevant gossip without identifying which, if any, of Origen's writings he allegedly said any of this.

Actually the references to his writings were given in the post.

 

[ClementofA]

​

That is true because I will never address any book or website you link to. Reason being I am having a discussion here at this forum supposedly with you, not tentmakers and not any piece of scribbling they promote at their website. If you can say in your own words what you believe and, if you choose, support it with scripture and/or credible, verifiable, historical evidence, then bring it otherwise I well ignore it. If you can get one of the writers you keep touting to come here I will gladly have a discussion directly with them. I do not address second hand canned arguments copy/pasted from random websites.

That's some advice that you could try to consistently put into action.

 

[ClementofA]

I went to your church fathers link and I found the same thing I objected to earlier. There is an alleged quote and a name attached to it but no, zero, none identify the specific writing the alleged quote is from. Just more "This guy said this, that guy said that and some other guy said something else." That link will fail in any class in any college in the country. I showed you how to properly cite the ECF; the name of the writer, the name of the writing, the chapter and section if listed

If people want to verify the accuracy of quotes they best be scholars in the original languages, not just amateurs reading biased English mistranslations. Even then scholars often disagree with each other. So, what's a person to do? Here's an idea. Seek God for answers.

Prov. 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;...

Unless you have a few semesters of Koine Greek you have no credible basis to determine anything is falsely translated. I am no expert but I have studied Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level, one of my professors, Dr. Roger Omanson, had been on the NIV translation committee.

My argument, which you haven't even answered & can never refute, is based on what scholars say:

Considering that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, your reputable biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions. Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions i posted gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in the specific context. What your biased scholars have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

As I said no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence, emphasis on verifiable, at your link. A statement with a name attached to it means nothing unless it can be verified via the name of the specific work the alleged quote is from. Heterodox groups have a penchant for selective quoting and out-of-context quoting.
בטח אל־יהוה בכל־לבך ואל־בינתך אל־תשׁען׃

You have never verified that the biased English mistranslations of Early Church Fathers that you post are faithful to the original languages. In fact, you've never even posted the original languages behind those biased opinions. You've also failed to provide the original words for specific English words i requested of you. Have you ever even read them in anything but the prejudiced English renderings of a single individual's POV?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

If people want to verify the accuracy of quotes they best be scholars in the original languages, not just amateurs reading biased English mistranslations. Even then scholars often disagree with each other. So, what's a person to do? Here's an idea. Seek God for answers.
Prov. 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;...

Right do as most universalists do, seek out the writings of universalists ONLY whether they have any qualifications in any relevant field or not. And accept anything and everything they say as if Moses had carried it down from Mt Sinai, without verifying anything for themselves. Therefore virtually everything the say or quote is "biased English mistranslations."
.....As I said before I am no expert but I started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany and I studied both Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level about 2 decades after that. I have Hebrew and Greek lexicons and grammars in my personal library. I do not depend on any scholar, any translation or any version, I can make a good effort to verify any translation. Can you say the same? Or is my first statement above correct?

Have you ever even read them in anything but the prejudiced English renderings of a single individual's POV?

It is abundantly clear that you have done and continue to do exactly what you accuse me of, everything you post is "the prejudiced English renderings of a single individual's POV." Don't demand of me what you cannot or will not do yourself.