Difference between amillennialism & preterism

[Biblewriter]

Or that God used terms like "Israel" and "Judah" and "Sanctuary" and "Holy City"
and "Jerusalem" and "Temple" and "House of God".... and so many other phrases
to represent the "Body of Christ" living in BOTH the OT and NT.

The scriptures plainly and explicitly tell us that this entity, formed of believers from Jew and Gentile alike, was something new. That is, that it did not exist before the time of the cross, which the scriptures plainly state is what brought this new entity about.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16

 

[Biblewriter]

BTW... the differences about the Millennial Kingdom rests on correct understanding
of the "first resurrection".... when do you think the "first resurrection" occurs?

This is completely incorrect. Although Revelation 20 is the only passage in all of scripture that states the length of time this future earthly kingdom will exist, there are seemingly hundreds of scriptures that clearly refer to a future physical kingdom on this earth. They promise it repeatedly in plain, clear, words. And they provide an host of specific details about that kingdom, even going to the extent of precisely defining the borders of the future land of Israel, specifying how it is to be divided among the twelve tribes, The form of worship to be used at that time, and even the specific punishments of those that disobey the laws that will apply at that time.

It would take many pages to post even a small portion of these very many scriptures. And ALL of them are explicitly stated in plain,clear, language. Simply believing these many scriptures is not interpretation. Rather, it takes interpretation to "get rid" of them.

 

[BABerean2]

This is completely incorrect. Although Revelation 20 is the only passage in all of scripture that states the length of time this future earthly kingdom will exist, there are seemingly hundreds of scriptures that clearly refer to a future physical kingdom on this earth. They promise it repeatedly in plain, clear, words. And they provide an host of specific details about that kingdom, even going to the extent of precisely defining the borders of the future land of Israel, specifying how it is to be divided among the twelve tribes, The form of worship to be used at that time, and even the specific punishments of those that disobey the laws that will apply at that time.

It would take many pages to post even a small portion of these very many scriptures. And ALL of them are explicitly stated in plain,clear, language. Simply believing these many scriptures is not interpretation. Rather, it takes interpretation to "get rid" of them.

Heb 11:15　 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.　
Heb 11:16　 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.　

If Abraham had the choice between the earthly city of Jerusalem and the heavenly city, which would he choose?
The answer is found above.



What did Jesus say below about the earthly Jerusalem?

Joh 4:21　 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.　
Joh 4:22　 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.　

Joh 4:23　 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.　

Joh 4:24　 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."　



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[parousia70]

You can't have a "First resurrection" that isn't actually "First".

The First Resurrection is not something Jesus does, it's something Jesus IS.

"I am the resurrection and the Life"

Jesus Christ is the First Resurrection, and on those that take part in it, the 2nd death has no power.

Jesus Christ was the first to rise out of the dead. Jesus was, literally, the "first resurrection." This fact, well attested by the writings of the New Testament, MUST form the basis for understanding Revelation 20:5-6:

"This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power" (Revelation 20:5-6)

The first resurrection was Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:5

Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead Acts 26:23
Christ should suffer and...be the first that should rise from the dead

Colossians 1:18
He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead

1 Corinthians 15:20
Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became


Jesus Christ was, plainly, the first resurrection. This fact forms the basis of St. John's depiction of the tribulation martyr saints becoming full partakers of the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20--everything Christ received by his death and resurrection is granted to them. Revelation 20:4-6, therefore, depicts the reality of Pauline theology concerning the identity Christ's followers had "in Him." Paul had taught that the saints were to become partakers of Christ's own reign and victory over death. Paul, with his detailed theology of our baptism into the very death and resurrection of Jesus (Rom 6:3-14), taught that the saints had co-resurrection and co-enthronement in the realized resurrection and enthronement of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:4-6 is a narrative depiction of the saints' realization of the glorious promise Paul held out for them in his teachings--the saints are depicted as having attained the goal for which they all strove. As Paul taught, their resurrection and reign was "in Christ," and their sufferings and martyrdoms were honored by God with the reward of partaking in Christ's own resurrection, enthronement, and reign. They realized the promise of Paul's teaching that the saints were truly to take part in the first resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Truly, on these the second death has no power (Rev 20:6).

 

[parousia70]

If Satan has been bound already from deceiving the nations or people in general, then his chain is too long. Take a look around.

Are you saying People in General are incapable of sinning without Satan influencing or deceiving them somehow?

We used to call that "Flip Wilson Theology"...
Such might be lost on the Millennial set tho...

 

[Biblewriter]

Heb 11:15　 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.　
Heb 11:16　 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.　

If Abraham had the choice between the earthly city of Jerusalem and the heavenly city, which would he choose?
The answer is found above.



What did Jesus say below about the earthly Jerusalem?

Joh 4:21　 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.　
Joh 4:22　 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.　

Joh 4:23　 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.　

Joh 4:24　 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."　



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You are using scriptures given about one group of people in a vain attempt to escape from the explicit statements of promises given to a different group of people. You HAVE t find a way to escape from these every many explicitly stated scriptures, because simply believing what they say destroys the entire system of doctrine you are advocating.

 

[BABerean2]

You are using scriptures given about one group of people in a vain attempt to escape from the explicit statements of promises given to a different group of people. You HAVE t find a way to escape from these every many explicitly stated scriptures, because simply believing what they say destroys the entire system of doctrine you are advocating.

I am not the one who is ignoring the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

I am not the one ignoring that Peter addressed the crowd as Israelites two times on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2:22 and Acts 2:36.

I am not the one ignoring that Paul identified himself as an Israelite in Romans 11:1.

I am not the one who believes that modern Jews will one day come to salvation outside of the Church, found revealed by Christ in Matthew 16:18.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant of Christ found below, it is not my doctrine which is destroyed.



Jer_31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24　 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20　 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25　 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
(NKJV)
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[Biblewriter]

I am not the one who is ignoring the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

I am not the one ignoring that Peter addressed the crowd as Israelites two times on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2:22 and Acts 2:36.

I am not the one ignoring that Paul identified himself as an Israelite in Romans 11:1.

I am not the one who believes that modern Jews will one day come to salvation outside of the Church, found revealed by Christ in Matthew 16:18.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant of Christ found below, it is not my doctrine which is destroyed.



Jer_31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24　 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20　 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25　 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
(NKJV)
.

I do not know of even one person who denies that the new covenant applies to Christians today. But you deny that the scripture you are so fond of quoting is not even about the church, but is specifically addressed to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. And you deny its future fulfillment in eventually every one of them, from the least to the greatest, eventually knowing the Lord.

And you flatly deny the multitude of scriptures which explicitly promise The ancient nation of Israel, along with its sub-nations of Judah, and Ephraim, and their respective twelve tribes, an eventual restoration to their ancient homeland, and to their ancient status as a nation favored by God, as well as to a relationship with God. Simply believing these promises is not interpretation, for they are explicitly stated in crystal plain words.

Denying that these promises will be kept is not legitimate interpretation of the scriptures, but wresting them to suit your doctrine.

 

[BABerean2]

But you deny that the scripture you are so fond of quoting is not even about the church, but is specifically addressed to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

Please show which of the scripture quoted in post #107 above is not about the Church.

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[Biblewriter]

Please show which of the scripture quoted in post #107 above is not about the Church.

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31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:31-34

 

[BABerean2]

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:31-34

Act 2:22　 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—　


Act 2:36　 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."　


You will find the passage above from Jeremiah 31:31-34 copied word-for-word, and fulfilled by Christ during the first century in the passage below.

Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
　
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　

Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—　

Heb 8:9　 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.　
Heb 8:10　 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.　
Heb 8:11　 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.　
Heb 8:12　 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　


Heb 9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.　


Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　


The claim that Jeremiah 31:31-34 does not apply to the Church can only work if you cut the Book of Acts and the Book of Hebrews out of your Bible.




The following Jewish man became a Christian because he found Jeremiah 31:31-34 in his Hebrew scriptures and came to understand that the New Testament is about the New Covenant. He is now a member of the Church and of Israel.

Could you tell this man that Jeremiah 31:31-34 does not pertain to him, today?

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[Yahchristian]

I do not know of even one person who denies that the new covenant applies to Christians today.

Do you agree with me that the "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31 applies to Christians today?

Or do you think that new covenant only applies to Israel, and a different new covenant applies to Christians?

Jeremiah 31:31... "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--

 

[DavidPT]

Do you agree with me that the "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31 applies to Christians today?

Or do you think that new covenant only applies to Israel, and a different new covenant applies to Christians?

Jeremiah 31:31... "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Do you think their fathers mentioned in verse 32, this is also meaning fathers of Gentiles, or do you think it is specifically meaning fathers not connected with Gentiles? In the NT church, it is comprised of both Jew and Gentile, yet their fathers mentioned in verse 32 has to be meaning only one or the other, and not both instead.

 

[5thKingdom]

Jesus himself explicitly said the very opposite.



The jot and the tittle were the two smallest marks used to construct the individual letters of the Hebrew alphabet. Here Jesus was saying that, not only every word, but even the very spelling of every word, "will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

The question was NOT whether all Bible prophesies will be fulfilled...
the question was WHY Jesus spoke in parables.
Do you want to answer the question?

 

[5thKingdom]

As this was said concerning people that had not yet passed through death, it most certainly could not even possibly mean their having been raised from a state of physical death, which is not only the obvious context but also the clear statement of Revelation 20:4

How do you figure the "obvious context" of Rev 20 is a physical resurrection
when the CONTEXT was specifically the SOULS of the Saints?

 

[5thKingdom]

I have seen some real whoppers in the past. But applying these scriptures to the resurrection takes them all.

Understanding the CONTEXT of Rev 20 was the SOULS of the Saints
is not a new understanding.... it is the TRADITIONAL Amillennial teaching.
Why would you say it is a "whopper" when it is a TRADITIONAL teaching
of early Christians (both Catholic and Protestant)?


.

 

[Biblewriter]

Do you agree with me that the "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31 applies to Christians today?

Or do you think that new covenant only applies to Israel, and a different new covenant applies to Christians?

Jeremiah 31:31... "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--

The new covenant most certainly applies to believers today. But it will not be completely fulfilled for Israel until there is not a single Israelite that does nor know the Lord, as is explicitly stated in Jeremiah 31:34.

 

[Biblewriter]

How do you figure the "obvious context" of Rev 20 is a physical resurrection
when the CONTEXT was specifically the SOULS of the Saints?

They were referred to as souls before they "lived again," as is explicitly stated in verse 5.

 

[5thKingdom]

Joh 5:24　 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.　

.

Correct... not only is that the TRADITIONAL understanding of early Christians
both Catholic and Protestant)... it harmonizes with everything the Bible teaches
about being "born again", or being "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit...besides being
the CONTEXT of Rev 20, which is talking about the SOULS of beheaded Saints.

 

[Biblewriter]

Understanding the CONTEXT of Rev 20 was the SOULS of the Saints
is not a new understanding.... it is the TRADITIONAL Amillennial teaching.
Why would you say it is a "whopper" when it is a TRADITIONAL teaching
of early Christians (both Catholic and Protestant)?


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Amillennism was most certainly not the teaching of ANY Christian who wrote before the end of the church's second century. Justyn clearly stated that there were some who did not believe in a literal thousand years, but during the first two centuries of the church, not even one of these people wrote anything that has survived to the present day. So even if this may be the typical interpretation of amillenists, it was most certainly NOT the original teaching of the church.