Limited vs unlimited atonement?

[JLB777]

This is beyond funny. It's clear you're not going to accept Jesus' promise of eternal security in John 10:28, regardless of the FACT. That is sad.

I accept what Jesus says, and believe the conditions He set forth.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:25-30

• My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.

• His Sheep Believe
• His Sheep hear His Voice
  
• His Sheep are known by Him
  
• His Sheep follow Him

Your "theory" is shown to be unbiblical by the first condition, which is believe.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, no longer meet the condition for eternal life which is to believe.


Cased Closed!



JLB

 

[JLB777]

Those who don't cherry pick verses OUT OF CONTEXT keep reading the REST of what Paul wrote:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. Rom 3:20

No one will be declared righteous by works of the law, or receive eternal life by "continuance in doing good", which is basically doing the works of the law.

So your theology is completely flawed by Pharisee thinking. Good luck with that.

And we know what Jesus thought of their theology in John 5:
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

No one receives eternal life based on continuance in doing good. That's works.

We receive eternal life on the basis of believing in the Savior for salvation.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


You will have to explain to God why He said these words to the Church.

• God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

• Here are the Christians who will inherit eternal life:

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

• Here are the Christians who will not inherit eternal life: but will experience God's wrath.

but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.


Paul wrote this letter to the Church at Rome.


There is no partiality with God, He will Judge each one according to there deeds, whether Jew or Gentile.

If you are a Christian and have the Holy Spirit, in which you produce the righteous holy fruit of the Spirit, as a bond-slave of Jesus Christ, then in the end you will be given everlasting life.


If you are a Christian and have the Spirit, but choose to walk after the sinful desires of the flesh, in which you obey the unrighteous cravings of the flesh, rather than the righteous desires of the Spirit within, then you will receive the wages for a life spent on gratifying the deeds of the flesh, which is God's wrath; eternal death.

• 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

• 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

• There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

• 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

• 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I accept what Jesus says, and believe the conditions He set forth.

Do you actually believe that recipients of eternal life will never perish???

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:25-30

• My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.

• His Sheep Believe
• His Sheep hear His Voice
  
• His Sheep are known by Him
  
• His Sheep follow Him

Your "theory" is shown to be unbiblical by the first condition, which is believe.

This is nonsense. The ONLY condition for receiving eternal life is to believe.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, no longer meet the condition for eternal life which is to believe.

If that were true, there'd be verses that plainly state that ceasing to believe would result in ceasing to have eternal life, and cease to be saved.

And there are no such verses, as you well know.

Cased Closed!

No, mind closed. Yours.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


You will have to explain to God why He said these words to the Church.

• God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

• Here are the Christians who will inherit eternal life:

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

• Here are the Christians who will not inherit eternal life: but will experience God's wrath.

but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.


Paul wrote this letter to the Church at Rome.


There is no partiality with God, He will Judge each one according to there deeds, whether Jew or Gentile.

If you are a Christian and have the Holy Spirit, in which you produce the righteous holy fruit of the Spirit, as a bond-slave of Jesus Christ, then in the end you will be given everlasting life.


If you are a Christian and have the Spirit, but choose to walk after the sinful desires of the flesh, in which you obey the unrighteous cravings of the flesh, rather than the righteous desires of the Spirit within, then you will receive the wages for a life spent on gratifying the deeds of the flesh, which is God's wrath; eternal death.

• 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

• 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

• There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

• 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

• 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

JLB

I again reject this Pharisee religion of yours. As did Jesus:
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. John 5

Salvation isn't about continuance in doing good, but in coming to Christ in faith.

 

[JLB777]

I again reject this Pharisee religion of yours. As did Jesus:
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. John 5

Salvation isn't about continuance in doing good, but in coming to Christ in faith.

Then you reject God's word.

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2;5-11


Here are the plain words of scripture that teach us who will receive eternal life:

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:6-7

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

JLB

 

[JLB777]

Do you actually believe that recipients of eternal life will never perish???

I believe what Jesus plainly says:


Those who are "in Him", but do not remain in Him, will end up being cast into the fire and burned.


Do you believe someone has eternal life apart from Christ?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Salvation isn't about continuance in doing good, but in coming to Christ in faith."

Then you reject God's word.

No, I reject your Pharisee religion, which Jesus also rejected.

Here are the plain words of scripture that teach us who will receive eternal life:

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:6-7

Your view is in direct conflict with God's grace and Word. We are saved by grace through faith, NOT by continuance in doing good.

You're just a do-gooder. The BEST that will get one in eternity is that it will be "more tolerable" for them than for others.

Given your admitted view on eternal life, I suggest you snip Eph 2:8 and 9 out of your Bible.

Oh, and might as well get rid of all these as well:
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 - They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe what Jesus plainly says:

How is that possible, since you've expressed several views that are in direct conflict with what He said.

First, Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe, from John 5:24. You've expressed the view that one receives eternal life by continuance in doing good, which comes from a totally misunderstood Rom 2:6-8.

Second, Jesus promised recipients of eternal life will never perish, from John 10:28. You've expressed the view that recipients, for various conditions, CAN perish.

Those who are "in Him", but do not remain in Him, will end up being cast into the fire and burned.

Misunderstanding parables and metaphors ALWAYS leads to false doctrine.

Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 all teach that those who have believed are marked in Christ with a seal, the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption of God's possessions.

I cannot imagine how anyone doesn't see eternal security in that.

Do you believe someone has eternal life apart from Christ?

I believe what Jesus promised: those He gives eternal life will never perish.

It seems you've failed to understand that one has eternal life at the BEGINNING of their salvation. And they will never perish.

Jesus gave no exceptions or conditions to those He GIVES eternal life in order to never perish.

 

[JLB777]

How is that possible, since you've expressed several views that are in direct conflict with what He said.

First, Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe, from John 5:24. You've expressed the view that one receives eternal life by continuance in doing good, which comes from a totally misunderstood Rom 2:6-8.

Second, Jesus promised recipients of eternal life will never perish, from John 10:28. You've expressed the view that recipients, for various conditions, CAN perish.


Misunderstanding parables and metaphors ALWAYS leads to false doctrine.

Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 all teach that those who have believed are marked in Christ with a seal, the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption of God's possessions.

I cannot imagine how anyone doesn't see eternal security in that.


I believe what Jesus promised: those He gives eternal life will never perish.

It seems you've failed to understand that one has eternal life at the BEGINNING of their salvation. And they will never perish.

Jesus gave no exceptions or conditions to those He GIVES eternal life in order to never perish.

No scripture here, just man's opinion, "tagged" with a scripture reference.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

Your view is in direct conflict with God's grace and Word. We are saved by grace through faith, NOT by continuance in doing good.

You're just a do-gooder. The BEST that will get one in eternity is that it will be "more tolerable" for them than for others.

Who wrote these words of scripture?

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


Are you attempting to say this scripture is not true, that God won't render to each person according to his deeds?


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

This scripture plainly says that God will render to each person, according to his deeds.


It also plainly says, what He will render to those who practice righteousness, by patient continuing in doing what is right and good:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

It also says what will be rendered to those who obey unrighteousness; who do not obey the truth:

• to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.

Why would you think this is not true, that this scripture somehow doesn't apply to the Church at Rome or anywhere else?


Paul wrote and warned us in His letters to other Churches as well.


If you are a Christian and have the Spirit, but choose to walk after the sinful desires of the flesh, in which you obey the unrighteous cravings of the flesh, rather than the righteous desires of the Spirit within, then you will receive the wages for a life spent on gratifying the deeds of the flesh, which is God's wrath; eternal death.

• 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

• 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

• There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

• 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

• 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

No scripture here, just man's opinion, "tagged" with a scripture reference.

7 verses, which you're insinuating are not Scripture. Pathetic.

How about taking each of the 7 verses and showing that my "opinion" doesn't square with the verse?

Can you do that?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Who wrote these words of scripture?

The Holy Spirit.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

I think a review of Gal 3 will show your gross error:
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”
11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

The idea of "continually doing good" certainly refers to observing the Law. The Law is "good":
1 Tim 1:8 - We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

But you're not using it properly. Doing good for eternal life is a works based system, no different than the Pharisses of Jesus' day.

Paul's words in Gal 3 completely refute your notions about Rom 2:6-8 being even possible for sinful fallen humanity.

Are you attempting to say this scripture is not true, that God won't render to each person according to his deeds?

Paul is showing legalists what they MUST DO in order to receive eternal life, if they want to do it on their own. i.e.; DIY salvation. But Paul CONTINUED on by proving that NO MAN can do it themselves. Rom 3:9, 20, 23 and Gal 3.

But to your second point, yes, God WILL render to each person accoding to his deeds, for both believer and unbeliever. But NOT for salvation.

For believers:
2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

For unbelievers:
Rev 20:15-20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

You'll notice that 20:15 gives the SOLE REASON people will be thrown into the lake of fire: they didn't possess eternal life.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

This scripture plainly says that God will render to each person, according to his deeds.

and I proved that from Scripture.

It also plainly says, what He will render to those who practice righteousness, by patient continuing in doing what is right and good:

He will, but ONLY for those who can fulfill that. And Paul continued on and PROVED that no one can "continue in doing good".

None of the passages quoted have been rightly divided. They don't say what you claim, nor do they mean what you claim.

Jesus promised that recipients of eternal life will never perish. Eternal security.

Plain and simple.

 

[JLB777]

The Holy Spirit.

Then you reject the Holy Spirit when you reject His words.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


Are you attempting to say this scripture is not true, that God won't render to each person according to his deeds?


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

This scripture plainly says that God will render to each person, according to his deeds.


It also plainly says, what He will render to those who practice righteousness, by patient continuing in doing what is right and good:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

It also says what will be rendered to those who obey unrighteousness; who do not obey the truth:

• to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.

Why would you think this is not true, that this scripture somehow doesn't apply to the Church at Rome or anywhere else?


Paul wrote and warned us in His letters to other Churches as well.


If you are a Christian and have the Spirit, but choose to walk after the sinful desires of the flesh, in which you obey the unrighteous cravings of the flesh, rather than the righteous desires of the Spirit within, then you will receive the wages for a life spent on gratifying the deeds of the flesh, which is God's wrath; eternal death.

• 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

• 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

• There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

• 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

• 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then you reject the Holy Spirit when you reject His words.

How come you've failed to comprehend a single thing I've explained regarding Rom 2:6-8?

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

Paul CONTINUED TO WRITE to the Roman believers. And he told them that NO ONE can earn eternal life by observing the Law, which would be "continuance in doing good". Rom 3:9, 20, 23.

What is it about "doing good for eternal life" that clearly suggests working for salvation that you do not grasp?

Are you attempting to say this scripture is not true, that God won't render to each person according to his deeds?

He's NOT going to give eternal life to "do-gooders". That's for sure. Your strange view suggests that one earns eternal life by performance, which is nuts.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

Your strange view removes God's requirement for faith in Christ. So your view isn't even close to biblical Christianity.

It's just Phariseeism. Which Jesus condemned. So, where does that put you?

This scripture plainly says that God will render to each person, according to his deeds.

He does for blessings and reward in eternity. 2 Cor 5:10

If you are a Christian and have the Spirit, but choose to walk after the sinful desires of the flesh, in which you obey the unrighteous cravings of the flesh, rather than the righteous desires of the Spirit within, then you will receive the wages for a life spent on gratifying the deeds of the flesh, which is God's wrath; eternal death.

This means that Christ died for NOTHING. Which is heresy. If eternal life is based on ANYTHING we work for, such as "continuance in doing good", then Christ's death was in vain. And no one will go to heaven.

Are you ignorant of the fact that Jesus' promise about never perishing was UNCONDITIONAL? I'm sure you didn't know that, with all that dabbling in Pharisee stuff.

But in both John 5:24 and John 10:28 Jesus promises eternal security on the basis of what He did for us (give us eternal life).

Your view has eternal life at the end of one's life. But Jesus promises to give eternal life WHEN one believes, which is at the BEGINNING of their Christian life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

[JLB777]

How come you've failed to comprehend a single thing I've explained regarding Rom 2:6-8?

Why do you reject the Holy Spirit, by denying what is plainly written in Romans 2:6-8/

Here is who will receive eternal life: those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• God Himself, will render to each one according to their deeds.

Each one. That includes you and me.

There is no "explaining away" those words.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

Not rewards, but either eternal life, or wrath.


These words don't pertain to someone else.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

If you are a Christian and have the Spirit, but choose to walk after the sinful desires of the flesh, in which you obey the unrighteous cravings of the flesh, rather than the righteous desires of the Spirit within, then you will receive the wages for a life spent on gratifying the deeds of the flesh, which is God's wrath; eternal death.

• 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

• 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

You are going to have to do better than just giving us your opinion, in the face of overwhelming scripture.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

I've not rejected Him. I've rejected your unbiblical "interpretation" of Rom 2:6-8, which DENIES the necessity for Christ's death on our part for our sins.

Your rejecting what the Holy Spirit taught us, in favor of your unbiblical "theory" you learned.

The words are clear.

God will render to each one according to his deeds.

What each will will receive, according to his deeds, is eternal life or God's indignation and wrath.


I think you would have a better chance of getting your point across as being believable, if you would switch to your tactic of "redefining" what God's indignation and wrath mean, rather than just flat out denying that the Holy Spirit said these words.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


Here is each verse line by line, please tell us which verse you don't agree with and why?

• God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
  
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Just so you will know what this looks like, I will give you a "snap shot" of that exact Day.


31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Matthew 25:31-36


Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

[Because]

for [Because] I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’

These who inherited the Kingdom of God, obeyed the righteous "leadings" of the life of Jesus Christ within them, and did what was righteous, demonstrating faith working by love.


Those who did not inherit the kingdom of God, ignored and disobeyed the righteous promptings within, obeying the sinful, selfish desires of the flesh instead.

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’


Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

for [because] I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
naked and you did not clothe Me,
sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’


Notice it was because of these things or a lack of these things that He made His decision, based on the servant being faithful or unfaithful, which is the context of the entire Chapter 25, even beginning with Matthew 24:45


45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:45-51


Both the faithful servant and the unfaithful servant were His people, His servants.


His servant that was promoted to ruler over His household, continued to Give His people food in due season, remaining faithful.


His servant that was promoted to ruler over His household, began to live an immoral lifestyle, and carouse with sinners, and eat with them and taking on their sinful ways, and became unfaithful, and ignored doing what was good and right in His Masters eyes.

• cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Guess where the hypocrites will be assigned?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your rejecting what the Holy Spirit taught us, in favor of your unbiblical "theory" you learned.

The words are clear.

God will render to each one according to his deeds.

What each will will receive, according to his deeds, is eternal life or God's indignation and wrath.


I think you would have a better chance of getting your point across as being believable, if you would switch to your tactic of "redefining" what God's indignation and wrath mean, rather than just flat out denying that the Holy Spirit said these words.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


Here is each verse line by line, please tell us which verse you don't agree with and why?

• God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
  
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Just so you will know what this looks like, I will give you a "snap shot" of that exact Day.


31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Matthew 25:31-36


Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

[Because]

for [Because] I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’

These who inherited the Kingdom of God, obeyed the righteous "leadings" of the life of Jesus Christ within them, and did what was righteous, demonstrating faith working by love.


Those who did not inherit the kingdom of God, ignored and disobeyed the righteous promptings within, obeying the sinful, selfish desires of the flesh instead.

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’


Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

for [because] I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
naked and you did not clothe Me,
sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’


Notice it was because of these things or a lack of these things that He made His decision, based on the servant being faithful or unfaithful, which is the context of the entire Chapter 25, even beginning with Matthew 24:45


45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:45-51


Both the faithful servant and the unfaithful servant were His people, His servants.


His servant that was promoted to ruler over His household, continued to Give His people food in due season, remaining faithful.


His servant that was promoted to ruler over His household, began to live an immoral lifestyle, and carouse with sinners, and eat with them and taking on their sinful ways, and became unfaithful, and ignored doing what was good and right in His Masters eyes.

• cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Guess where the hypocrites will be assigned?



JLB

I'm not interested in your Pharisee religion. It does not save. Only Jesus Christ saves. By grace. Through faith. Not of works. Eph 2:8,9

 

[JLB777]

I'm not interested in your Pharisee religion. It does not save. Only Jesus Christ saves. By grace. Through faith. Not of works. Eph 2:8,9

You mean you don't want the truth of what the Holy Spirit says, or what Jesus says.


You seem to only want what your man made theory says.

Here is each verse line by line, please tell us which verse you don't agree with and why?

• God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
  
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8



Deeds; the lifestyle that each Christian who was given the nature of Jesus and His Spirit, lived.



31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Matthew 25:31-36


Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

[Because]

for [Because] I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’

These who inherited the Kingdom of God, obeyed the righteous "leadings" of the life of Jesus Christ within them, and did what was righteous, demonstrating faith working by love.


Those who did not inherit the kingdom of God, ignored and disobeyed the righteous promptings within, obeying the sinful, selfish desires of the flesh instead.

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’


Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

for [because] I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
naked and you did not clothe Me,
sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’



JLB

 

[JLB777]

I'm not interested in your Pharisee religion. It does not save. Only Jesus Christ saves. By grace. Through faith. Not of works. Eph 2:8,9

You don't seem to understand what faith is, and how faith works.


Grace is the Holy Spirit, given to those who believe.

The Grace of God is given to each person to empower them to live their life, by the power of Jesus Christ, in dominion over sin.


If you have the power of God's grace, but live a sinful life, continuing to serve the devil, then you are a hypocrite.


The Christian has the choice to live according to the flesh, or live according to the Spirit.


Those who live according to the flesh, and obey it's sinful cravings, will no inherit the kingdom of God.

• 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

• 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Those who live according to the Spirit, have learned to put to death the deeds of the flesh.

• Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

• if you live according to the flesh you will die;

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14

• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

• For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

We are to be led by the Spirit of God who lives within, not by the sinful desires of the flesh.


You need to understand that we have been given the Spirit of God to overcome the desires of the flesh.


But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. 1 Timothy 4:7


Here is what the Holy Spirit through Peter, admonishes us to do:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

• for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:2-11


Faith working by love.

Faith works, and has an expression.

We are called to add to our faith these things:

• virtue
• knowledge
• self-control
• perseverance
• godliness
• brotherly kindness
• love

Exercising godliness, and putting to death the deeds of the flesh, are just some of the ways we overcome by the grace and power of the Holy Spirit.


Maybe on the Day of Judgement, you can explain to the Lord, why doing these things are a Pharisee religion.

I think more than likely it will go like this:

‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:44-46


A little arguing, then ...



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

You mean you don't want the truth of what the Holy Spirit says, or what Jesus says.

No. I don't want your Pharisee religion.

You seem to only want what your man made theory says.

Nope. It was inspired by the Holy Spirit, unlike Pharisee religion, which is man made.

Here is each verse line by line, please tell us which verse you don't agree with and why?

I agree with every verse. It's your Pharisee religion that I totally disagree with.