Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

[Major1]

I'm not asking for yet another bible quote that could be interpreted six ways to Sunday.

I'm asking you, as an individual, would you feel the same if it turned out that God really does triumph over sin, to the benefit of all affected? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

Those concepts are read into the scriptures which God is said to have inspired. If they were actually there, every Christian would be in agreement as to what the passages said, and there wouldn't be the numerous denominations that there are.

Even if it were a case that God was being judged, which again I think would be impossible to do, I'm sure He could more than handle it.

My friend, the reason why there are so many denominations is that we refuse to accept the Word of God.

We (They) do not like it so we form another group of people who think like we want think instead of accepting what God has stated as truth.

 

[mkgal1]

My friend, the reason why there are so many denominations is that we refuse to accept the Word of God.

We (They) do not like it so we form another group of people who think like we want think instead of accepting what God has stated as truth.

Is there an answer to this somewhere in the above post (am I missing it)?

The question asked was: "I'm not asking for yet another bible quote that could be interpreted six ways to Sunday.

I'm asking you, as an individual, would you feel the same if it turned out that God really does triumph over sin, to the benefit of all affected? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice."

 

[Der Alte]

I'm still waiting to be shown a single author, if you can find one, who agrees with you that OLAM means "for ever" except when "hyperbole" is used, as in your comment here:
"I am quite sure the Jewish scholars who translated the JPS OT in 1917 knew the meaning of "olam" therefore the word must mean "for ever."
.....What about those times it is used to mean something which is not eternal? That is called hyperbole."
Here's what you posted:
"עוֹלָם S5769, 5865 TWOT1631a GK6409, 6518439 n.m. long duration, antiquity, futurity;..."
Do you see how that does not agree with your comment above?

No that is not what I posted! That is part of one line. The entire article is more than two pages long. Were you to actually read the entire definition you might learn how to read a lexicon entry.

 

[mcarmichael]

It's a real Jesus thing. "they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." said Jesus (Matthew 25:46) And Jesus also said "The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment ... I am in anguish in this flame." (Luke 16:22, 24)

That was a parable.

 

[Der Alte]

About a decade or so ago I was checking out a proof text used by people with a certain belief. I read the entire chapter to learn the full context of the particular verse. I'm kinda funny that way and I happened to find this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
This passage very much speaks to the issue of God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

 

[GingerBeer]

Those who Jesus turned away into age-long punishment/cleansing are also those who have built wood, hay and stubble on the foundation of Jesus Christ, as we see in I Corinthians 3:12.

I've heard that rationale for avoiding the intended meaning of Matthew 25:31-46 before. It is far from the truth. The same word is used for the eternal life given to the righteous. eternal punishment and eternal life have the same duration it seems.

 

[mcarmichael]

"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."
"Pursue peace with all men, and holiness; without which shall no man see the Lord."

 

[GingerBeer]

Some alternate translations have

The last verse read thus in Greek:

καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον, οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον.​

If eternal life is eternal then so is eternal punishment eternal. The same word is used for both. The Greek word means

αἰώνιος

aiṓnios; gen. aiōníou, masc.-fem., neut. aiṓnion, adj., also fem. aiōnía, neut. aiṓnion, from aiṓn, age.​

Eternal, perpetual, belonging to the aiṓn, to time in its duration, constant, abiding. When referring to eternal life, it means the life which is God's and hence it is not affected by the limitations of time. Aiō̄́nios is specially predicated of the saving blessings of divine revelation, denoting those things which are not transitory. Meanings:
(I) Spoken chiefly of future time:

(A) Of God (Rom 16:26; 1Ti 6:16; Sept.: Gen 21:33; Isa 40:28).
(B) Of the blessedness of the righteous (Mat 19:29; Mat 25:46; Mar 10:30; Joh 3:15-16, Joh 3:36; Rom 2:7; 2Co 4:17). In some passages this zōḗ aiṓnios (zōḗ [G2222], life), life eternal which is equivalent to the kingdom of God, and the entrance into life, means the entrance into the kingdom (Joh 3:3, Joh 3:5, Joh 3:15; Mat 19:16; Act 13:46).
(C) Of the punishment of the wicked (Mat 18:8; Mat 25:41, Mat 25:46; Mar 3:29; 2Th 1:9; Heb 6:2; Jud 1:7; Sept.: Dan 12:2).
(D) Generally (2Co 4:18; 2Co 5:1; Heb 9:14; Heb 13:20; 1Jn 1:2; Rev 14:6; in Phm 1:15 aiṓnion, an adv. meaning forever, always). In the Sept.: diathḗkē aiṓnios (G1242), testament, covenant, meaning eternal covenant (Gen 9:16; Gen 17:7).​

The translation "eternal punishment" is correct and so is the translation "eternal life" correct. You can't have the latter without also acknowledging the former.

 

[GingerBeer]

That was a parable.

What do you think that means? Calling it a parable doesn't mean it is fake teaching does it?

 

[mcarmichael]

What do you think that means? Calling it a parable doesn't mean it is fake teaching does it?

It's allegorical, right?

 

[GingerBeer]

It's allegorical, right?

It may be metaphorical (if it is a parable) but it is not an allegory as far as I can tell. None of the parables appears to be allegorical. Parables teach a lesson using an example drawn from familiar earthly things. The lesson in Luke 16:19-31 is that the way one lives on earth determines the punishment or blessing that will be received for eternity.

 

[mcarmichael]

What's the difference?

 

[Lazarus Short]

I've heard that rationale for avoiding the intended meaning of Matthew 25:31-46 before. It is far from the truth. The same word is used for the eternal life given to the righteous. eternal punishment and eternal life have the same duration it seems.

A far greater authority than I (if authority is important to you), Robert Young, has consistently translated the Greek word usually rendered as "eternal," as "age-long" in his Young's Literal Version Bible. It is a bit clumsy, but I think, more accurate. He did so in Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[GingerBeer]

A far greater authority than I (if authority is important to you), Robert Young, has consistently translated the Greek word usually rendered as "eternal," as "age-long" in his Young's Literal Version Bible.

Authority (as in human scholarship) has significance but Robert Young is not the only authority on the meaning of Greek words and he wrote in the 19th century (he died in 1888) before the distinction between Koine Greek and Attic Greek was known and understood (Koine Greek was 'discovered' around beginning of the 20th century). Because his translation was the product of scholarship that was unaware of the origins and development of Koine Greek it is inaccurate in numerous ways. You would be far better served by consulting reputable translations from the beginning of the 20th century up to today.

 

[Der Alte]

Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.
Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown​

Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios
Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.
0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY
αιωνιος
• Strong's - Greek 165
• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…
aion - αιων - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• aionion, aionios – αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System. [/indent]
What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry[/indent]

 

[Rajni]

You try to dodge the meaning of sentences which are in no way ambiguous.

Speaking of dodging:

For heaven's sake. Do you think there are 999 ways of interpreting "The cat sat on the mat?" or is that only when you don't want to accept what is being said?

That's not a simple "yes" or "no" answer. Let's try again. Would you feel the same (as expressed in your original post) if it turned out that God really does triumph over sin, to the benefit of all affected?

-

 

[Der Alte]

A far greater authority than I (if authority is important to you), Robert Young, has consistently translated the Greek word usually rendered as "eternal," as "age-long" in his Young's Literal Version Bible. It is a bit clumsy, but I think, more accurate. He did so in Matthew 25:31-46.

Do you have sufficient credit hours in Koiné Greek to be qualified to determine which translations are more accurate and which are less accurate? Or is your criteria what agrees with your assumptions/presuppositions?

 

[ClementofA]

No that is not what I posted! That is part of one line. The entire article is more than two pages long. Were you to actually read the entire definition you might learn how to read a lexicon entry.

Well, duh. If you want to have a discussion with people, discuss. Don't spam "two page long" articles of someone else's work. My point stands.

 

[ClementofA]

Those verses say nothing of the sort. Jesus does save his people from their sins. Mine are saved. Believe in the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved. Whosoever believes in him shall not perish. If you don't believe you don't get in period. What's Revelation say about the Book of Life. If you are not in there you don't get in period. It's the final judgement. There isn't any more after that.

Everyone will believe & be saved. Even if some have to perish for a while. The same Greek word for perish is used of Jesus' speaking of the lost sheep that was later found
and the lost coin that was sought "till he finds it". That is salvation. Luke 15.

In Revelation the gates to the holy city are never shut. God says He is making "all" new. Chapter 21 says there will be no more pain or death. Chapter 5 says:

and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, 'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.5:13, YLT)

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

 

[GodisLove2]

Evidently they are.

Oops sorry meant to say names are NOT mentioned in parables.

Eh... I would say that that passage isn't very hopeful.

Disciples were astonished and said how can the rich be saved and Jesus replied with God all things are possible.

Not sure what this has to do with heaven's inhabitants seeing their unsaved loved ones in hellish torment. I mean, if one is going to put forth that the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not a parable, then one has to be open to the possibility that it illustrates, which is that people in heaven will be seeing their loved ones suffering in hell..

People in heaven will see their loved ones suffering in hell but being like angels they will not have regrets and also by knowing God is the righteous judge every mouth will be stopped.

Death gets destroyed, so the effects thereof are, likewise, destroyed. Hence, everyone lives, and God wins..

What does everlasting fire mean?