To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

[PropheticTimes]

I don't see anyone here with a hope or belief in universalism saying what you do about it above. Please look up the definition of universalism so you don't misrepresent it again in the future.

From Webster's Dictionary:

"a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved"

From Wikipedia:

"Christian Universalism is a school of Christian theology which includes the belief in the doctrine of universal reconciliation, the view that all human beings will ultimately be restored to a right relationship with God..."

"...Christian Universalists disagree on whether or not Hell exists. However, they do agree that if it does, the punishment there is corrective and remedial, and does not last forever.[11]"

From Theopedia:

"Universalism is the theological view arguing that all persons will ultimately be saved."

I understand quite well what Universalism is. The doctrine of thinking all people will ultimately be saved is heretical and unbiblical. Jesus said the torment will be everlasting, not conditional. I choose to believe Him rather than some who pick, choose and twist Scripture to fit that thinking. For believer's, life will be eternal rewards and joy. For unbeliever's life will be eternal punishment and suffering. If you read the Bible in it's entirety God clearly says there is no in between.

 

[claninja]

I understand quite well what Universalism is. The doctrine of thinking all people will ultimately be saved is heretical and unbiblical. Jesus said the torment will be everlasting, not conditional. I choose to believe Him rather than some who pick, choose and twist Scripture to fit that thinking. For believer's, life will be eternal rewards and joy. For unbeliever's life will be eternal punishment and suffering. If you read the Bible in it's entirety God clearly says there is no in between.

I'm pretty sure everyone (including you and me) looks at scripture differently. If we all looked at it the same, there would not be 100+ denominations of Christianity. I don't think you choose to believe in Him any more than others on this forum. To say you do is kind of like the Pharisee's prayer "Thank you that I'm not like those others". And hey, I've been the Pharisee, so I am not exempt in this either.
So instead, let's be gentle to one another:

2 Timothy 2:24-25
And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

If we can discuss topics like this gently with each other, while learning from one another with an open mind, then these discussions can be rewarding. Even if you disagree, let it be gently. However, if you can't enter into one of the discussions without quarreling and name calling, then just don't get involved in the first place.

2 Timothy 2:23
Have nothing to do with stupid, senseless controversies; you know that they breed quarrels

 

[PropheticTimes]

I'm pretty sure everyone (including you and me) looks at scripture differently. If we all looked at it the same, there would not be 100+ denominations of Christianity. I don't think you choose to believe in Him any more than others on this forum. To say you do is kind of like the Pharisee's prayer "Thank you that I'm not like those others". And hey, I've been the Pharisee, so I am not exempt in this either.
So instead, let's be gentle to one another:

2 Timothy 2:24-25
And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

If we can discuss topics like this gently with each other, while learning from one another with an open mind, then these discussions can be rewarding. Even if you disagree, let it be gently. However, if you can't enter into one of the discussions without quarreling and name calling, then just don't get involved in the first place.

2 Timothy 2:23
Have nothing to do with stupid, senseless controversies; you know that they breed quarrels

Thank you. I truly needed that. My frustrations bare its teeth from time to time and I don't mean to come across the way I do at times.

I appreciate your correction and the gentleness with which you delivered it. Thank you, brother.

 

[claninja]

Thank you. I truly needed that. My frustrations bare its teeth from time to time and I don't mean to come across the way I do at times.

I appreciate your correction and the gentleness with which you delivered it. Thank you, brother.

No worries friend, I've been there. I know we may not always agree on everything, but at least we both can thankful for Christ and the grace of God!

 

[PropheticTimes]

No worries friend, I've been there. I know we may not always agree on everything, but at least we both can thankful for Christ and the grace of God!

Amen.

 

[GUANO]

If the Roman/Greek/Babylonian concept of Heaven and Hell (Adopted by Christians) were valid, what purpose would a Messiah even have? The model takes care of itself without the need of a Savior.

 

[SkyWriting]

I think I get what you are saying, but correct me if I am wrong. The settings Jesus use are never fake. For example the parable of the sower: Farmers really do sow seed. The parable of the of the mustard seed or parable of yeast. All these are about real physical things. Therefore, the setting for the parable of the richman and lazarus is real.

Is that close?

For Jesus, they are all actual events He has first-hand knowledge of.
He retells these actual events as parables.

 

[SkyWriting]

I'm pretty sure everyone (including you and me) looks at scripture differently. If we all looked at it the same, there would not be 100+ denominations of Christianity.

They are all close enough to the same.
If you go, it's hard to see much difference.
I've seen more diversity in one church's
members than differences between churches.

 

[Der Alte]

If Scripture is the only infallible truth, why are we still talking about men's opinions?

I'm not, I don't know what you are talking about. Quoting from Greek and Hebrew lexicons and Jewish historical documents is not "man's opinion." But that is exactly what you did you quoted a bunch of stuff from and linked to the blog of some guy name Denny Burke who states no qualifications in Greek or Hebrew.
.....I call this the itching ear syndrome. Find something, written by somebody, somewhere and tout them as the end all be all authority on the Bible. I went to a dentist the other day, I'm glad he went to med school and didn't get his training from anonymous blogs on the internet.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.​

When Jesus taught universalism He opposed any positions to the contrary that His listeners held.

Jesus did not teach universalism as I have shown in my [post #212] this thread.

Jesus taught aionion correction, not eternal punishment.

When one makes an assertion they should provide evidence to support it. NO Jesus did not teach aionian correction. See my discussion in post 212 where I address this.

Re unextinguished fire, people in fire can be saved, as we see in the OT book of Daniel. God Himself is a consuming fire able to convict & purify men's souls for their own good. People that go into a fire can also come out of it. Fire that is unextinguished by man or rain, etc, may still eventually go out on its own due to lack of fuel. If you have a fireplace you can test this by lighting it up. Don't extinguish it & see if it goes out on its own.

Where does the NT say that anyone cast into eternal punishment or fire is taken out at some point? If the fiery punishment is for correction how will those who experienced it feel about God who put them through it. How do many criminals feel about the the judges, witnesses, courts etc.who put them in prison? Many do not have warm fuzzies but place all the blame on the judges, witnesses. And many of them are repeaters.
If God chooses for fire to burn forever, as His word states, I'm pretty sure He can do that.

Scripture does. It says God is love. Not love until people die & then an eternal sadist to billions.
Jesus said to love your enemies. Endless torments would make Him the worst hypocrite of all time.

Thank you for your unsupported opinion. It is not hypocritical for God to do what His word says He will do to sinners.

It's better for a man not to be born, but to die inside the mother, than to live an evil life. The evil man will suffer God's corrective punishment for his salvation. If he died before being born he would be innocent & not needing such a disciplinary action.

Another unsupported opinion. That is not what the scripture says.

A similar interpretation states:
"Better had Judas not been born? Mt. 26:24 This passage does not say that it would have been better for Judas if his mother had never conceived him, only that he not had been born. There is a big difference. Ec. 6:3 says, ―If a man begets a hundred children and lives many years...but his soul is not satisfied with goodness...I say that a stillborn child is better than he. It could be the same with Judas; ―Woe to that man…it would have been good for that man if he had not been born [but stillborn]."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
And for another take on the passage:
Was it better for Judas had he not been born

That is not what Mt 26:24 says. You criticize me for quoting from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud so "if Scripture is the only infallible truth, why are we still talking about men's opinions?" Here you quote two arguments from Universalist websites neither of which show any qualifications in Greek or Hebrew.

 

[claninja]

For Jesus, they are all actual events He has first-hand knowledge of.
He retells these actual events as parables.

That's interesting. I have never heard that before. So you think they are all events that literally happened and Jesus re tells them to His audience to fit with the message he is trying to teach.

 

[Der Alte]

Being drowned is a rather light punishment, if it can even be considered bad. After all, everyone dies. And drowning is a relatively quick & painless death. Comparing that to an endless hell in fiery torments is ridiculous. It's like comparing a drop in the ocean to a universe full of water. Therefore Jesus' statement in Matthew 18:6 actually strongly opposes the doctrine of endless hell. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Thank you again for this unsupported opinion. I would say that drowning would be a terrifying death but the scripture says that is better than the punishment in store for those who do certain things. I still say that is talking about a fate worse than death. Jesus was certainly not saying that drowning was better than everyone being saved no matter what. And once again a link to a website which does not provide any qualifications in Greek or Hebrew. Just some guys opinion.

 

[beebert]

I am almost certain that election means something else than predestined to be "saved" as Augustine taught. Many are called, but few are chosen. Who are the elect? Throughout the Bible the term "the elect" is used to refer to "God's chosen people". But chosen to what? Chosen to be the light and salt in the world. Salt saves meat. The elect work with and by the Grace of the Holy Spirit to save the whole world. Salt preserves something else. Light illuminates something else. Israel, the Old Testament type of the Church (or even the Church of the Old Testament), was called God's elect so as to be a light to the gentiles. "Through you," God says to Abraham, "all the the nations of the earth will be blessed." That should be the christians spirit. We are all one in Adam. Christians should be obligated not to seperate themselves from the children of Adam, but to show the light of Christ to the children of Adam to strive to make all men children of Christ. For the salvation of the world. There is no fear in love. Christians are called to show People the light of immortality and Victory over death, and to answer to evil with good. To not resist evil.
The notion that the salvation of Jesus is a salvation from the punishment of our sins, is a false and pathetic idea coming from the herd mind.. The salvation of Christ is salvation from the will and leaning to sin. It is a deliverance into God's ways of thinking and feeling. It is a salvation that makes the heart pure, with the will and choice of the heart to be pure. To such a heart, sin is disgusting. It sees a thing as it is, just as God sees everything as it is. The soul thus saved would rather sink into the flames of hell than steal into heaven and be there under the shadow of an imputed righteousness. What a fakse view of the gospel that has derived from the reformed theology! What a blasphemy towards love, goodness and truth! No soul is saved that would not prefer hell to sin. No heavenly utilitarist can remain that way and call him self saved and chosen. Jesus did not die to save us from punishment; he was called Jesus because he should save his people from their sins. About rationalistic theology: Let the dead bury their dead, but I will do what I can to keep them from burying the living.

 

[claninja]

I am almost certain that election means something else than predestined to be "saved" as Augustine taught. Many are called, but few are chosen. Who are the elect? Throughout the Bible the term "the elect" is used to refer to "God's chosen people". But chosen to what? Chosen to be the light and salt in the world. Salt saves meat. The elect work with and by the Grace of the Holy Spirit to save the whole world. Salt preserves something else. Light illuminates something else. Israel, the Old Testament type of the Church (or even the Church of the Old Testament), was called God's elect so as to be a light to the gentiles. "Through you," God says to Abraham, "all the the nations of the earth will be blessed." That should be the christians spirit. We are all one in Adam. Christians should be obligated not to seperate themselves from the children of Adam, but to show the light of Christ to the children of Adam to strive to make all men children of Christ. For the salvation of the world. There is no fear in love. Christians are called to show People the light of immortality and Victory over death, and to answer to evil with good. To not resist evil.
The notion that the salvation of Jesus is a salvation from the punishment of our sins, is a false and pathetic idea coming from the herd mind.. The salvation of Christ is salvation from the will and leaning to sin. It is a deliverance into God's ways of thinking and feeling. It is a salvation that makes the heart pure, with the will and choice of the heart to be pure. To such a heart, sin is disgusting. It sees a thing as it is, just as God sees everything as it is. The soul thus saved would rather sink into the flames of hell than steal into heaven and be there under the shadow of an imputed righteousness. What a fakse view of the gospel that has derived from the reformed theology! What a blasphemy towards love, goodness and truth! No soul is saved that would not prefer hell to sin. No heavenly utilitarist can remain that way and call him self saved and chosen. Jesus did not die to save us from punishment; he was called Jesus because he should save his people from their sins. About rationalistic theology: Let the dead bury their dead, but I will do what I can to keep them from burying the living.

And this is eternal life, that they know thee, the one true God and whom you sent, Jesus Christ. John 17:3

That is true life

 

[ClementofA]

And once again a link to a website which does not provide any qualifications in Greek or Hebrew. Just some guys opinion.

The links referred to a number of scholarly works.

Since those with such qualifications don't agree with one another, what use are they to a layman who doesn't have 15 PHDs in those languages?

The Pharisees & Sadducees were the scholars of Jesus' day, yet His disciples followed Him. He often scolded the scholars for their sins & lies.

 

[ClementofA]

Another unsupported opinion. That is not what the scripture says.

That is not what Mt 26:24 says.

Obviously any interpretation is not "what scripture says". It's a man's opinion of what it says.

When someone posts a passage alleging it is in support of something (e.g. endless torments/ET) & various interpretations (e.g. universalist) show valid ways that such a passage need not be understood as supporting the alleged viewpoint (e.g. ET), then the alternate interpretations (e.g. universalist) have succeeded in their purpose.

As i've shown, Matthew 26:24 does not count as Scriptural proof for the ET position.

 

[beebert]

Obviously any interpretation is not "what scripture says". It's a man's opinion of what it says.

When someone posts a passage alleging it is in support of something (e.g. endless torments/ET) & various interpretations (e.g. universalist) show valid ways that such a passage need not be understood as supporting the alleged viewpoint (e.g. ET), then the alternate interpretations (e.g. universalist) have succeeded in their purpose.

As i've shown, Matthew 26:24 does not count as Scriptural proof for the ET position.

Agree. I am certain that you are correct.

 

[ClementofA]

I'm not, I don't know what you are talking about. Quoting from Greek and Hebrew lexicons and Jewish historical documents is not "man's opinion."

They are. They disagree with one another & they're not inspired, infallible or inerrant.

 

[beebert]

The second and equally essential factor is that after Jesus Christ we know that God is love. This is the central revelation. How can we conceive of him who is love ceasing to love one of his creatures? How can we think that God can cease to love the creation that he has made in his own image? This would be a contradiction in terms. God cannot cease to be love. If we combine the two theses we see at once that nothing can exist outside God's love, for God is all in all. It is unthinkable that there should exist a place of suffering, of torment, of the domination of evil, of beings that merely hate since their only function is to torture. It is astounding that Christian theology should not have seen at a glance how impossible this idea is. Being love, God cannot send to hell the creation which he so loved that he gave his only Son for it. He cannot reject it because it is his creation. This would be to cut off himself.

 

[beebert]

And speaking of justice - revenge is not justice. Justice is that which sets wrongs to rights. It restores what was lost, binds up broken hearts, reconciles people to each other and to God and it brings people to a point of repentance and horror at their crimes. Justice is about restoration, not retribution
Let us state frankly – the idea of eternal hell and eternal suffering for some and eternal bliss (indifferent to suffering) for others, can no longer remain in the living and renewed Christian conscience as it was formerly presented in our catechisms and our official theology courses. This archaic conception which claims to be based on the Gospel texts, understands them in a literal, coarse and material sense, without penetrating the hidden spiritual meaning of the images and symbols. This conception is increasingly showing itself to be an intolerable violation of Christian conscience, thought and faith. We cannot accept that the sacrifice of Golgotha has revealed itself to be powerless to redeem the world and conquer hell. Otherwise we should say: creation is a failure, and Redemption is also a failure. It is high time for all Christians to witness in common and reveal their mystical experience – intimate in this area – as well as their spiritual expectations, and perhaps also their revolt and horror before materialistic, anthropomorphic representations of hell and the Last Judgment, and of the heavenly Jerusalem. It is high time to be done with all these monstrosities – doctrinal or not – often blasphemous, from ages past, which make of our God of Love that which He is not: an ‘external’ God, who is merely an “allegory of earthly kings and nothing else.” The pedagogy of intimidation and terror is no longer effective. On the contrary, it blocks entry into the Church to many who are seeking a God of Love “who loves mankind” (the “Philanthropos” of the Orthodox liturgy).

 

[beebert]

A whole theological trend advances the convenient solution that God is love but also justice. He saves the elect to manifest his love and condemns the reprobate to manifest his justice.
This view is part of the mistaken theology which declares that the good are unhappy on earth but will be happy in heaven, whereas the wicked are successful on earth but will be punished in the next world. Unbelievers have every reason to denounce this explanation as a subterfuge designed to make people accept what happens on earth. The kingdom of God is not compensation for this world.