Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

  • God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • God can't do what he wants to do.

    Votes: 2 4.1%
  • Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    Votes: 40 81.6%
  • Don't know...never thought about this before.

    Votes: 3 6.1%

  • Total voters
    49

2PhiloVoid

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How would you know that one way or the other? I am agnostic on the whole matter; it's people who commit to an answer one way or the other who confuse me.

I appreciate your philosophical approach, Silmarien, so I won't push it with you here. While we could get into the nitty-gritty of epistemology and throw 100 page responses at each other, I'm not going to.

Instead, I'll just ask what would qualify as 'knowing' in your estimation? :cool:
 
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The Times

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That would be....wrong...again. I fear God, I just don't fear your version of hell. IOW my fear is well-placed, and yours is not.

Ok, then please explain how God chastises you in this life and is that chastisement a relationship of reverent fear that you have with God?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Oh I rather look forward to it. But then my heart is probably in tune with the heart of the one who died for them on the cross too. So I expect I will have to be in line behind him.

I'm confident that an unrepentant Hitler, Mao or Stalin WON'T make it into the eternal life of Christ. Let's not fool ourselves here.
 
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GillDouglas

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Nonsense! The case for the ultimate reconciliation of ALL souls dwarfs the notion that God is going to let the vast majority of his creation burn in hell forever.
False. Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches, and therefore it is NOT a popular notion. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved by the love of God is to belittle the holiness and justice of God and negate the need of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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That's the assumption of those who bring up God's justice when talking about hell.

I'm an Annihilationist. Punishment of a permanent sort is still on the docket.
 
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jeffinjapan

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You're basing your conclusion on a preference for an answer that you find palatable, not one that is truthful.
Actually, I am basing my beliefs on my understanding of the character of God, scripture, the writings of many Christian Saints, Christian philosophers, and good ole' fashion common sense.
 
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jeffinjapan

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I'm an Annihilationist. Punishment of a permanent sort is still on the docket.
Haha...you have a point. While I am not an annihilationist, I do hold that belief in higher regard than the eternal torment one.
 
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Hillsage

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Ok, then please explain how God chastises you in this life and is that chastisement a relationship of reverent fear that you have with God?
That's a good question. And I'll bet you don't have a good answer. So you go first. And then I'll correct you. :p
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Actually, I am basing my beliefs on my understanding of the character of God, scripture, the writings of many Christian Saints, Christian philosophers, and good ole' fashion common sense.

Universalism isn't good sense, good doctrine, nor does it involve sober interpretation of the Scriptures. Rather, it is a travesty of the whole scheme of God's plan involving repentance, reconciliation and sanctification in THIS LIFE. You're just fooling yourself like Hananiah fooled himself before the face of Jeremiah and God.

Amazingly, you sound like you're smarter than that, Jeff!
 
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The Times

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That is exactly what Patristic Universalism is. And would you kindly stop referring to us as "Unitarian Universalists." We are not and they are heretics of the worst kind - anti-trinitarian God deniers.

They did not use Universalism within your current context of the usage of the term. Your 100% misquoting the Church fathers to give life to a heresy that all will be saved.

When Athiests die, are they saved?
When snake worshippers die, are they saved?
When Satanists die, are they saved?

If you answered yes to any of the above, your not even close to what the Church fathers taught, not even close. In fact if this lifetime is not the means test for a person's salvation, then Christ died for nothing. God came as Jesus of Nazareth and he died on the cross, then he said come and follow me.

Jesus said not every one who says lord lord will inherit eternal life, except those who do the fathers will. Doing the fathers will is solely in this lifetime, and this lifetime is temporal testing platform that God uses to either accept or to reject people. Once we pass away, there is no more carrying our crosses and following Jesus, let alone doing the Father's will. The work of faith is in this lifetime, after comes judgement before the judgement seat of Christ, that at this time it is Justice and not Grace that you are facing.
 
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jeffinjapan

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False. Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches,
Not even remotely true.
and therefore it is NOT a popular notion.
So because it's not popular means it can't be true....really?

To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved by the love of God is to belittle the holiness and justice of God and negate the need of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.

This is true. Those who for whatever reason reject Jesus will have the opportunity in the next life to accept. And in the end, God's love will prove irresistible to even the most hardened sinner.
 
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jeffinjapan

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Universalism isn't good sense, good doctrine, nor does it involve sober interpretation of the Scriptures. Rather, it is a travesty of the whole scheme of God's plan involving repentance, reconciliation and sanctification in THIS LIFE. You're just fooling yourself like Hananiah fooled himself before the face of Jeremiah and God.

Amazingly, you sound like you're smarter than that, Jeff!

Annihilationism isn't good sense, good doctrine, nor does it involve sober interpretation of the Scriptures. Rather, it is a travesty of the whole scheme of God's plan involving repentance, reconciliation and sanctification...

See how easy that was.
 
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mkgal1

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According to the web site, this is the mainstream teaching of the Orthodox church in the U.S.
The Orthodox Faith - Volume IV - Spirituality - The Kingdom of Heaven - Heaven and Hell
Thus it is the Church’s spiritual teaching that God does not punish man by some material fire or physical torment. God simply reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God’s splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light.

. . . those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God . . . But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed! (Saint Isaac of Syria, Mystic Treatises).

This teaching is found in many spiritual writers and saints: Saint Maximus the Confessor, the novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky. At the end of the ages God’s glorious love is revealed for all to behold in the face of Christ. Man’s eternal destiny—heaven or hell, salvation or damnation—depends solely on his response to this love.
 
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Silmarien

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I appreciate your philosophical approach, Silmarien, so I won't push it with you here. While we could get into the nitty-gritty of epistemology and throw 100 page responses at each other, I'm not going to.

Instead, I'll just ask what would qualify as 'knowing' in your estimation? :cool:

I would actually love to discuss epistemology at some point (but not right now, since I need to sleep). Last time I tried, it ended really badly and I mostly just talk to agnostics now. =/

But do you mean 'knowing' in general or when it comes to the afterlife? I am uncomfortable saying that we know that repentance is impossible after death because Scripture says so, since that relies on any number of assumptions. Was Jesus teaching theology when warning about eternal punishment (eternal death?) or just communicating in the most effective way? To what degree was Paul inspired when discussing this particular subject, and what does inspiration really entail?

Philosophically, the one thing that gives me serious pause about Universalism is that we can't really conceptualize eternity and it may well be that once the concept of time is removed, the possibility of changing goes away too. But pretty much everything about this topic is completely removed from our present experience to the point that anyone saying that their thoughts on it are more than speculation strikes me as absurd. (I am equally comfortable with Universalism and Annihilationism. Or well, not comfortable, per se, especially since I don't buy into a form of Universalism that skips over the whole unpleasant hell part, but they both make sense to me.)
 
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jeffinjapan

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2PhiloVoid

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I would actually love to discuss epistemology at some point (but not right now, since I need to sleep). Last time I tried, it ended really badly and I mostly just talk to agnostics now. =/

But do you mean 'knowing' in general or when it comes to the afterlife? I am uncomfortable saying that we know that repentance is impossible after death because Scripture says so, since that relies on any number of assumptions. Was Jesus teaching theology when warning about eternal punishment (eternal death?) or just communicating in the most effective way? To what degree was Paul inspired when discussing this particular subject, and what does inspiration really entail?

Philosophically, the one thing that gives me serious pause about Universalism is that we can't really conceptualize eternity and it may well be that once the concept of time is removed, the possibility of changing goes away too. But pretty much everything about this topic is completely removed from our present experience to the point that anyone saying that their thoughts on it are more than speculation strikes me as absurd. (I am equally comfortable with Universalism and Annihilationism. Or well, not comfortable, per se, especially since I don't buy into a form of Universalism that skips over the whole unpleasant hell part, but they both make sense to me.)

I like your sensibility, Silmarien. It's rather refreshing since most of the time I like to just discuss things philosophically with those here at CF. At other times I get a little taken aback by what I see to be excessive liberties with biblical interpretation which many times come out of misapplied (or messy) hermeneutical approaches.

Anyway, I need to go to bed, too. Perhaps we can discuss our respective views on how epistemology frames these issues for each of us some time and how we think we may or may not be able to grasp something substantive in the Bible..... :cool:

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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The Times

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That's a good question. And I'll bet you don't have a good answer. So you go first. And then I'll correct you. :p

You see friend, it isn't about having a good answer that is socially accepted by your peers. I certainly would not rely on your answer, let alone on those of my own house hold.

I simply asked you a question, that captures the essence of what you have been contending all this time.

Certainly I could give you an answer without thinking about what I am about to say, because the fear in me, isn't about an intellectual exercise, rather it is soaked deep in love for my Lord and saviour.

I believe that my reverend fear of him is not separable from the blissful love I have for him. In fact my life experience is chastisement after chastisement of ridicule, rebuke, rejection, sickness, struggle, where the victories that I have had in overcoming every single one of them has made me love him more than I would love anyone in this life, including myself. My reverend fear is solely vested in him, relying on him to complete me. The fear of incompletion is the measure by which I see my love for him growing and deepening day by day, this transcends my being, to the point I fear him, because I count myself as an obstacle to him and an enemy that must be crushed and defeated under his feet. Being prepared to be crushed by God is not knew to me, I see it imperative to him completing me, where there are no traces of me, but of his son that he is well pleased of.

My motto is to prepare to be crushed by the Lord and to be brought before his feet as a broken and contrite heart. Fear and perfect love is realised after I die and he lives in me for all eternity. Amen!
 
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ClementofA

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I'm confident that an unrepentant Hitler, Mao or Stalin WON'T make it into the eternal life of Christ. Let's not fool ourselves here.

Neither would an unrepentant you. Or Saul, who became Paul the apostle, who called himself the worst of sinners.

How many billions of years of punishment does Hitler deserve? Should it involve being burned alive, weeping and gnashing of teeth and torments forever and ever?

If forever is forever, why add "and ever" to it?

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Daniel9v9

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He created the product foreknowing (possibly even foreordaining) the flaws therein. He saw it coming, and proceeded anyway. I don't say this to blame Him, as I don't think God is to blame for anything. But it does raise questions about the usual narrative put forth surrounding the concept of sin and the role it plays on this plane of existence. It leaves God looking rather inept, I'm sorry to say. And as one who is convinced He is anything but inept, I find it surprising that churches would perpetuate such a narrative.

If our salvation isn't to our credit, our doom can't logically be to our discredit. It doesn't follow. What you're proposing is what's been termed "doublespeak".

So how can dead people be held accountable for anything? They're dead. They're entire unable to do anything.

Reason isn't a bad thing. :) In fact, one would be well-advised to be highly suspicious of any teaching that asks you to put your brain in park in order to receive it. I'm not saying the left side of the brain should call the shots 24/7; I find that spirituality benefits greatly by letting the right side take over for awhile (especially since we're not going to have an answer for e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g before we die), so that our relationship with God doesn't grow dull and dry. But, ideally, reason should have, at the very least, helped in the construction of the foundation of one's beliefs. Faith's already got the whole belief that there is a God at all in the first place covered quite well. :)

No worries. It echoes a lot of what I myself accepted for many years.

Sorry, I think you have missed out some key points there.

If we understand Holy Scripture as truly God's Word - as spoken through His prophets, apostles and His Son - we know that Scripture should only be interpreted by Scripture; not by our own situation and presuppositions. Here reason plays a part in accordance with the Holy Spirit. If we can't understand a passage, we first look at the immediate context, and then we can look at everything the Bible has to say about the matter. We can read Scripture in its plain and literal form, unless there is anything in the passage to indicate that it should be understood symbolically. Through this process reason is due.

However, Scripture also presents us with many paradoxes; here we need to tread carefully and be mindful of our sinful inclinations, through humility and fear. When talking about unsolvable Biblical paradoxes, reason easily becomes destructive and counter-intuitive to anything good and spiritual, for it is dealing with things beyond our comprehension. This is not the same as "parking the brain", as you put it.

If you look at history, you can find that many heresies are born out of a good and zealous intention of explaining or defending a particular doctrine, which may look attractive and make a lot of sense. However, due to their over-zeal in defending something, the teaching becomes pushed to the extreme, and in the process throws out and abandons other truths, and ironically ends up destroying the faith it set out to defend. One of many examples of this is the problem I pointed out earlier: Christ's two natures; this cannot be reasoned with, yet it is true, and so it is apprehended by faith.
In a word: More often than not, to reason with a Biblical paradox is to set ourselves up for heterodoxy or heresy.

What you're getting at in your post is the philosophical problem of evil, which could be summed up this way: If God is good, why does evil exist? The answer would typically boil down to that either God created evil or that God is not in control, or simply that there is no God. However, these are false conclusions and contrary to the Word of God. What we can know is that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenovelent, and that He is also entirely good and holy. The existence of evil is unsolvable through means of human reasoning, but it's not impossible through faith, for God is higher than any seemingly impossible logic. God is greater than math!
In other words, if we somehow construct a scenario whereby God is not the source of evil, but due to His foreknowledge of sin, we think that it yet amounts to the same as God being the source of evil, we are in grave error, for this is not what Scripture speaks. Only God is good, and sin and rebellion is our own fault.

I'm surprised by your notion that salvation should be credited to us. How so? The Bible explicitly says otherwise. We are saved by grace through faith; a gift from God, lest anyone should boast. Again, there is only one name by which we are saved: Jesus Christ. Again still, Abraham's faith was credited to him righteousness. Are you suggesting that we can merit our own salvation? In which case, I would suggest reading Romans (and really the entire New Testament) again. If you believe that we add anything to our salvation, then this becomes Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism, which is highly problematic in itself.

Also, if I understand correctly, you seem to think we are not ultimately to be blamed for our sins; that sins are merely a side effect of our current condition, and not our own doing. This most certainly goes hard against what the Bible has to say about sin and rebellion, in view of our call to repentance. Jesus even specifically called us "evil". When I referenced Scripture saying man being dead in sin, this means spiritually dead. If we read the full context of this, we can understand that this means that we are slaves to sin, which is a direct consequence of our own doing, and therefore our own fault. Scripture does indeed teach that we are to be held accountable for our sin, and only by God's grace, are we made alive and set free in Christ.

I have a lot to say about this subject but this post is already quite long and I want to stick to the question I posed twice now:
Where in Scripture does it say that whoever, through sin, rebellion and unbelief rejects God's grace, namely Jesus Christ, will have life? Nowhere. In fact, Scripture explicitly screams the opposite! However, if you believe you can find some Scripture to back up this view that whoever rejects Christ will have life, even a hint to it, I'd be interested in hearing it.

May I also add this: If you hold that all will have salvation, do you believe that even the fallen angels will be saved? In which case, how do you get around 2 Peter 2?

Lastly: Do you deny that it is good and righteous for God to punish evil and sin?
 
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