To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

[Fish Catcher Jim]

And people being eternally tortured just for refusing to believe is "loving and not barbaric" HOW?

Stop humanizing God.

God is love - so he provided all people with a way to escape his wrath. His Son Jesus

God is mercy - Those who believe in Jesus will find the mercy of God on Judgement Day

God is Just - The greatest crime any soul can commit is refusing to believe in the shed blood of God Himself. The Justice of God demands this crime be paid for. The soul that commits this act will pay for that crime, eternal punishment. Just as those who believe will receive eternal life.

God is not limited to our understanding of love or justice. God is not confined to perform anything out of any compulsion. He could very well have condemned all to death and hell, but in his love he provided a way to life. Himself! Those who refuse to believe will bear the penalty in themselves for all eternity

Amen and did you ever notice how those who are running or refuse to submit always seem to waste time fighting about what is fair or right etc?
Blessings
FCJ

 

[-Luca]

It's only out of love He's provided the escape. If He were actually cruel, He would not have done so.

I s'pose.

 

[surrender1]

I'm not going to argue with you. Read post #23, which clarifies what I believe. It is not me you should post this too. Because I know there will be torment of some kind, now if that is self induced or what, I don't know. However, it will be very bad and separate them from God by them not having perfect justification for sin.

Oh, there IS torment "of some kind" and if you live long enough you will know that in a very intimate and personal way.
My kid couldn't do anything that would make me give up on him. Love never gives up. God is love. Love never fails.

 

[surrender1]

The mercy is that Christ died for all and all can choose Him.

The mercy is us receiving such a gift as eternity with the God who created the universe. EVERYTHING. The water, the soil, the planets, the sun, life.

Do you believe that God is perfectly just? Do you believe that Jesus was exactly who He said He was?

I rest in God's perfection. He is just and righteous. Otherwise He would not have had to send and sacrifice His Son. God Himself.

Paul wrote that Adam's transgression led to condemnation to ALL men and likewise Jesus' one act of obedience leads to justification and life for ALL men. I believe scripture.
Just as written, God did all this to show mercy to all. And he will show mercy to all. In his own way and own timing.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

The Spirit Can Not Be Killed.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY in hell. Matthew 10:28

We are spirit and we have a soul. Which is our mind, will and emotions and we live in a body.

When we are born again God places His Spirit in us. Separation of God is loosing His spirit.

Our Spirit houses the soul.
So in hell your spirit, feels and taste and smells and thinks etc

The scripture does not say destroyed as done away with or non existing
Blessings
FCJ

 

[ToBeLoved]

Oh, there IS torment "of some kind" and if you live long enough you will know that in a very intimate and personal way.
My kid couldn't do anything that would make me give up on him. Love never gives up. God is love. Love never fails.

I experience quite a bit of personal torment. I have Dr. diagnosed clinical depression and anxiety. That is it's own hell, believe me.

 

[surrender1]

Greetings @disciple1
It would be so much more healthier to you Spiritually if you kept Scripture in context and not pick a single scripture out of context to try and back something in error.

V 22
22 Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.

We know what God will do. He told us!
Blessings
FCJ

Yes, cut off. Like the prodigal son for whom the father never gave up hope and patiently awaited his return. Love never gives up.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I s'pose.

Just trust God. He is fair and just.

We don't know the big plan. God says that His ways are not our (human) ways.

We have no idea why things are done the way they are, but we must know that God is who He says He is.

Don't fret. If you have the Holy Spirit, you are not going there.

 

[surrender1]

I experience quite a bit of personal torment. I have Dr. diagnosed clinical depression and anxiety. That is it's own hell, believe me.

Exactly!

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Paul wrote that Adam's transgression led to condemnation to ALL men and likewise Jesus' one act of obedience leads to justification and life for ALL men. I believe scripture.
Just as written, God did all this to show mercy to all. And he will show mercy to all. In his own way and own timing.

Exactly and He has told us how He will do it too. THROUGH Christ. If You are not Born Again And Spirit Filled you won't pass through judgment. You will be found guilty as charged for your EVERY WRONG DOING and Condemned.
That's How He Will Do It.

Blessings
FCJ

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Yes, cut off. Like the prodigal son for whom the father never gave up hope and patiently awaited his return. Love never gives up.

Look you are running blind here.
There is a set time. It's called Grace.
That ends when the Church gets Raptured.
After that the ONLY THING that will keep you from eternal damnation is The Blood Of Christ.
If you don't have it you won't pass judgment into Heaven.

All these examples you give are for the here and now while there is still time.
Once time runs out so doses Grace and without Grace there is no mercy.

Matthew 7:23
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Yep as seen above......Grace Done Run Out
Blessings
FCJ

 

[surrender1]

Look you are running blind here.
There is a set time. It's called Grace.
That ends when the Church gets Raptured.
After that the ONLY THING that will keep you from eternal damnation is The Blood Of Christ.
If you don't have it you won't pass judgment into Heaven.

All these examples you give are for the here and now while there is still time.
Once time runs out so doses Grace and without Grace there is no mercy.

Matthew 7:23
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Yep as seen above......Grace Done Run Out
Blessings
FCJ

Mt. 7:23 is about the AD 70 judgment.
God is not like man; his grace and mercy don't run out.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Mt. 7:23 is about the AD 70 judgment.
God is not like man; his grace and mercy don't run out.

At death, it's over.

 

[mcarmichael]

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Because the core concept of "eternal punishment" is that is is eternal.
Of course there are varying opinions to what "hell" actually is, and if any ancient persons not mentioned in the Bible might be there, and so on.
So it's fairly explicit, that certain "people" (let's call angels "people" here) are already condemned.
It's a scary thought, but remember that it could happen to you, too!

 

[PollyJetix]

Either the Bible is true, or it isn't.
If it isn't, then there is no guarantee of anything.
But if the Bible is true, then it has to be 100% true, or we'd be back at square one.

On the other hand... if the Bible is 100% true, then we know hell exists forever, and the torment lasts forever.
Revelation 14:10-11

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Mt. 7:23 is about the AD 70 judgment.
God is not like man; his grace and mercy don't run out.

@surrender1 Greetings,
Your understanding of God and His Ways are lacking understanding.

This is a season of Grace.
In the book of the Revelation of Jesus
It is Recorded when God's Grace for this world runs out.

Let me say it in a natural way.
ROAD EQUALS TIME
SIGNS EQUALS GOD'S GRACE.

Your driving down a road at 150 mph.
You have been told the road ends and there is a concrete wall then down you go and life over.

You keep blowing by these signs we will call God's Grace. These signs say stop and turn now for the road ends.

You keep on going insisting God will change His mind and extend the road for you.

Sign after sign goes by and you keep insisting that God will change His mind and extend the road for you.

At last you come to the last sign. It reads last chance. It's now or NEVER.....you keep going thinking God will extend your road.

Then BOOM you HIT THE WALL and down you go.
RIDE OVER. ....FINISHED.....JUDGED....SENTENCED TO HELL.
That's just the way it is
Blessings
FCJ

 

[Kenny'sID]

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

What fate...exactly?

Universalism is not Biblical, it's like OSAS, wishful thinking by those that choose to believe it. There are plenty of advantages to both of those among others but they aren't the truth and the advantages expire one we die or Christ returns.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

Because that's not what God has in mind, and he makes the rules.

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

Not sure he has ever changed his mind with prophesy, but either way, who wants to take that slim chance? Not me.

 

[PollyJetix]

God Does NOT send anyone to hell.
People make that choice on their own...

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (The action of destroying is done by God.)

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (The action, once again, is God, doing the punishing, and taking vengeance.)

We like to think that God is so good and kind and nicey-nicey that He would never be mean.
The Bible gives a different picture.

"It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:31

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm