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To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

ByTheSpirit

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But if he created it than surely he can take it away? I just do not understand because if he loved someone then why would he punish them forever?

His love is demonstrated and expressed in the cross. If someone refuses the cross they refuse his love. Ergo the punishment. God will never force himself or his love on anyone
 
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Solomons Porch

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But why is hell eternal? Why can't God just kill us or something. Why would he let someone be in torture and pain for eternity, why can't he just kill them?
I personally think that's a cowardly way out, YEAH let's live like we wanna and do what we wanna, murder, kill, ISIS, rape, molestation, robbery, abortion........... and then poof, Gods gonna cause us to vanish and we don't have to pay a price for anything. Naw it doesn't work that way Luca, if somebody did awful and horrific things to you, you would want them to pay a price for that, most humans feel this way, you are young, but when you get older you will understand. Life isn't fair, we have to buck up and deal with it. But God is fair, you may not see it now, but one day you will.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I suppose...but why God torture people in hell forever, that is not love. That is cruel and sad.

Why do they have to be both eternal?
So, I'm not 100% sure what God will do if it is a lake of Fire or if it is separation from God or what.

But God describes it as very bad and God cannot lie. For sure Satan will be thrown in their with the rebellious angels who God kicked out of heaven.

Know this though, God is 100% fair and 100% just. And we do not know His big plan. He promises us that we will know all in heaven, so someday we will all understand all of our questions.

But faith is trusting what you are not sure of. God tells us He is perfectly just and perfectly fair.

Do you believe that?
 
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Fish Catcher Jim

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I suppose...but why God torture people in hell forever, that is not love. That is cruel and sad.

Why do they have to be both eternal?

God Does NOT send anyone to hell.
People make that choice on their own.

16 God loved the world this way: He gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.
17 God sent his Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but to save the world.
18 Those who believe in him won’t be condemned. But those who don’t believe are already condemned because they don’t believe in God’s only Son.
19 This is why people are condemned: The light came into the world. Yet, people loved the dark rather than the light because their actions were evil.
20 People who do what is wrong hate the light and don’t come to the light. They don’t want their actions to be exposed.
21 But people who do what is true come to the light so that the things they do for God may be clearly seen.

God gives more chances to everyone to Accept Christ BUT people reject or refuse to do so. They send them selves by their choice to not ACCEPT CHRIST
Blessings
FCJ
 
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ByTheSpirit

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The whole idea of:

God will never punish people for eternity because (fill in the blank) is a very slippery slope of doctrine. Those who hold it fast are living in false doctrine.

You are making God in your own image by doing so. Most people call it humanizing God.

God says his ways are above our ways. His thoughts above our own.

It is a human logic that says eternity is a long time to suffer for something.

God says I have my very Son for you! His blood was shed for your sins. You choose, life through his blood, or death by refusing.

Those who reject Jesus will suffer God's wrath.
 
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ToBeLoved

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But if he created it than surely he can take it away? I just do not understand because if he loved someone then why would he punish them forever?
God has given us a very special gift with free-will. We have the power to choose, choose everything about ourselves, from what comes out of our mouths, to where we will live and what we will do every moment of every day.

God cannot take away salvation. His Covenant with us is sealed in His Only Begotten Son's blood. You do not understand how powerful that is. Jesus who knew no pain or sadness, experienced life, better than us, but still as a man. Fully God and fully man.

Christ can and DOES know what we are going through.

Hebrews 4:15-16

15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

That is really beautiful if you think about it. Glorious.

This might help you understand ( Got Questions, www.GotQuestions.org) why it is impossible for God to change His mind about saving us. If you have the Holy Spirit, you are Christ's.

Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"

Answer:
First, the term Christian must be defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer or walked down an aisle or been raised in a Christian family. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what makes a Christian. A Christian is a person who has fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior and therefore possesses the Holy Spirit (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8–9).


So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation? It’s a crucially important question. Perhaps the best way to answer it is to examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation and to study what losing salvation would entail:

A Christian is a new creation. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). A Christian is not simply an “improved” version of a person; a Christian is an entirely new creature. He is “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be destroyed.

A Christian is redeemed. “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18–19). The word redeemed refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. We were purchased at the cost of Christ’s death. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase of the individual for whom He paid with the precious blood of Christ.

A Christian is justified. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). To justify is to declare righteous. All those who receive Jesus as Savior are “declared righteous” by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and “un-declare” what He had previously declared. Those absolved of guilt would have to be tried again and found guilty. God would have to reverse the sentence handed down from the divine bench.

A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is the promise of spending forever in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be redefined. The Christian is promised to live forever. Does eternal not mean “eternal”?

A Christian is marked by God and sealed by the Spirit. “You also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory” (Ephesians 1:13–14). At the moment of faith, the new Christian is marked and sealed with the Spirit, who was promised to act as a deposit to guarantee the heavenly inheritance. The end result is that God’s glory is praised. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to erase the mark, withdraw the Spirit, cancel the deposit, break His promise, revoke the guarantee, keep the inheritance, forego the praise, and lessen His glory.

A Christian is guaranteed glorification. “Those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). According to Romans 5:1, justification is ours at the moment of faith. According to Romans 8:30, glorification comes with justification. All those whom God justifies are promised to be glorified. This promise will be fulfilled when Christians receive their perfect resurrection bodies in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.

A Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Christ would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation is the gift of God, and God’s gifts are “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29). A Christian cannot be un-newly created. The redeemed cannot be unpurchased. Eternal life cannot be temporary. God cannot renege on His Word. Scripture says that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

Two common objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation concern these experiential issues: 1) What about Christians who live in a sinful, unrepentant lifestyle? 2) What about Christians who reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these objections is the assumption that everyone who calls himself a “Christian” has actually been born again. The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a state of continual, unrepentant sin (1 John 3:6). The Bible also says that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he was never truly a Christian (1 John 2:19). He may have been religious, he may have put on a good show, but he was never born again by the power of God. “By their fruit you will recognize them” (Matthew 7:16). The redeemed of God belong “to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God” (Romans 7:4).

Nothing can separate a child of God from the Father’s love (Romans 8:38–39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28–29). God guarantees eternal life and maintains the salvation He has given us. The Good Shepherd searches for the lost sheep, and, “when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home” (Luke 15:5–6). The lamb is found, and the Shepherd gladly bears the burden; our Lord takes full responsibility for bringing the lost one safely home.

Jude 24–25 further emphasizes the goodness and faithfulness of our Savior: “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”

Can a Christian lose salvation?

SO SEE, NO WAY THAT'S HAPPENING.
 
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Fish Catcher Jim

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But why is hell eternal? Why can't God just kill us or something. Why would he let someone be in torture and pain for eternity, why can't he just kill them?

The Spirit Can Not Be Killed.
Forget all your questioning and why nots and Grasp it is not going to change.
You have 2 offers on the plate. We must choose or the choice for us is already made.

Blessings
FCJ
 
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surrender1

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It's really not about what I believe, it is about what God says. I feel that I would be putting peoples soul's in jeparody by not telling them about hell.
And the billions of people who have died without knowing about hell? Too bad you weren't around for God to use to tell them about it.

Jesus NEVER mentioned hell. Not once. I mean, how dare he put peoples' souls in jeopardy by not telling them about it. Of course, I'm being facetious trying to make a point.

Eleven times Jesus spoke of the Valley of Hinnom (aka Gehenna), which is incorrectly translated "hell" in many bibles, and each time he was speaking to the people of Israel. He used a phrase the nation of Israel would have understood as divine punishment for an unrepentant nation. It was not thought of as individual hell fire and eternal torment; it was basically saying that judgment was coming to the nation. The eleventh occurrence is in Mt. 23:33 and just three verses later Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation.”
 
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Fish Catcher Jim

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There is evidence that God’s mercy triumphs over His wrath. Looking at the prophets we see that God continually tells Israel in no uncertain terms He’s going to punish them severely. But time and time again, He relents. Time and time again he delays the punishment or scales back its severity or both. Was God lying when He said He’d do those terrible things? No. He meant every word. But His mercy compelled Him to stop short. So, even if the symbolic language John used to describe the fate of the wicked is actually literal, God’s mercy has been shown to be more powerful and compelling than His wrath. God’s anger endures for a moment but His love endures forever and His mercy is everlasting (Ps. 30:5, 100:5; 103:9; 106:1; 107:1; 118:29; 136:10-26; Micah 7:18; Ps. 100:5; 138:8; Isa. 54:8).

“LORD, I have heard the report about You and I fear. O LORD, revive Your work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make it known; in wrath remember mercy” (Hab. 3:2).


The problem with thinking like this is that you are confusing actions taken before the set date of time of the ending with time set to Accept Christ.

After God sends Christ back to get His church the ending is at hand.
God will take full control over this world again and what He has spoken will be done.

Anyone who thinks God will change His mind about those who have refused Christ and show mercy and say, ahhhh come on in with me is on A Fools Errand!!
Blessings
FCJ
 
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disciple1

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To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments (hell):

1) How do you know that anyone will suffer such a fate? Can you be hopeful of universalism, that is hope that all will be saved? Just as the Roman Catholic Church believes.

2) Assuming some do go into everlasting punishment, why then can't they also come out of everlasting punishment?

3) Assuming some do go into eternal torments, what's to say God won't change His mind, e.g. if they repent, and free them? Has God not changed His mind before in the Scriptures (e.g. see the account of Jonah), when people repent?

So what's stopping one who believes in the threat of endless conscious torments from being one who also hopes that Love Omnipotent may yet save all?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
Romans chapter 11 verse 32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
No one knows what God is going to do.
 
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CrystalDragon

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Those who are condemned to hell are so because they have trampled on the blood of Jesus by refusing to believe. That is why they are punished so and will be for eternity. Because they profane the blood of the only begotten Son of God.

Hebrews 10:29-31


And people being eternally tortured just for refusing to believe is "loving and not barbaric" HOW?
 
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surrender1

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Romans chapter 11 verse 32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
No one knows what God is going to do.
Exactly! He did all this "to show mercy on them all."
 
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ToBeLoved

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And the billions of people who have died without knowing about hell? Too bad you weren't around for God to use to tell them about it.

Jesus NEVER mentioned hell. Not once. I mean, how dare he put peoples' souls in jeopardy by not telling them about it. Of course, I'm being facetious trying to make a point.

Eleven times Jesus spoke of the Valley of Hinnom (aka Gehenna), which is incorrectly translated "hell" in many bibles, and each time he was speaking to the people of Israel. He used a phrase the nation of Israel would have understood as divine punishment for an unrepentant nation. It was not thought of as individual hell fire and eternal torment; it was basically saying that judgment was coming to the nation. The eleventh occurrence is in Mt. 23:33 and just three verses later Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation.”
I'm not going to argue with you. Read post #23, which clarifies what I believe. It is not me you should post this too. Because I know there will be torment of some kind, now if that is self induced or what, I don't know. However, it will be very bad and separate them from God by them not having perfect justification for sin.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Exactly! He did all this "to show mercy on them all."
The mercy is that Christ died for all and all can choose Him.

The mercy is us receiving such a gift as eternity with the God who created the universe. EVERYTHING. The water, the soil, the planets, the sun, life.

Do you believe that God is perfectly just? Do you believe that Jesus was exactly who He said He was?

I rest in God's perfection. He is just and righteous. Otherwise He would not have had to send and sacrifice His Son. God Himself.
 
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disciple1

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Exactly! He did all this "to show mercy on them all."
Jonah chapter 4 verse 11
And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left--and also many animals?"
Since you liked that.
 
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Fish Catcher Jim

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Romans chapter 11 verse 32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
No one knows what God is going to do.

Greetings @disciple1
It would be so much more healthier to you Spiritually if you kept Scripture in context and not pick a single scripture out of context to try and back something in error.

V 22
22 Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.

We know what God will do. He told us!
Blessings
FCJ
 
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ByTheSpirit

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And people being eternally tortured just for refusing to believe is "loving and not barbaric" HOW?

Stop humanizing God.

God is love - so he provided all people with a way to escape his wrath. His Son Jesus

God is mercy - Those who believe in Jesus will find the mercy of God on Judgement Day

God is Just - The greatest crime any soul can commit is refusing to believe in the shed blood of God Himself. The Justice of God demands this crime be paid for. The soul that commits this act will pay for that crime, eternal punishment. Just as those who believe will receive eternal life.

God is not limited to our understanding of love or justice. God is not confined to perform anything out of any compulsion. He could very well have condemned all to death and hell, but in his love he provided a way to life. Himself! Those who refuse to believe will bear the penalty in themselves for all eternity
 
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A_Thinker

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The Spirit Can Not Be Killed.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY in hell. Matthew 10:28
 
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SeventyOne

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But why is hell eternal? Why can't God just kill us or something. Why would he let someone be in torture and pain for eternity, why can't he just kill them?

That place was made for the devil and his angels. We get to go spend eternity with our god, whichever one that may be. What makes you think any of them would want to be with the God of Heaven anyway, after already rejecting Him and embracing the god of this world?

Truth is, we are all already on out way to hell. It's only out of love He's provided the escape. If He were actually cruel, He would not have done so.
 
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