Immortality of the soul

ArmyMatt

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What are our views on the immortality of the soul? Is what these guys are stating correct in that the soul dies when we die?

depends on what you mean by die. as stated earlier, death is separation. so the soul that separates itself from the God who is Life, choses death over life, choses separation over communion. that soul is truly dead.
 
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Dorothea

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Those in hades perishing, would this be what some call 'annihilationism?' Ceasing to exist, or eternal torment? Thanks
Gotta review the eschatology for a second.....


V. ORTHODOX ESCHATOLOGY

The Holy Spirit of God, working through the Church and its sacramental life, leads the plan of salvation in Christ to completion and final fulfillment. The final battle with evil that operates in the world will occur just before the coming again of the Lord. In the meantime, the struggle against evil and dark forces in the world continues, with some victories on behalf of the Church, and with some failures on behalf of some of its members. This is the normal condition of the life of the Church, which is the inaugurated Kingdom of God, and which, however, has not yet come fully. Two distinct stages are to be recognized, in terms of Christian Orthodox eschatology: that of a "partial judgment," of a "partial" or "realized" eschatology, and that of a "final judgment," at the coming again of the Lord, which will come at the end of time.

a) Partial judgment - the hour of our death


Our physical death, a consequence of the first man's sin that we still suffer, can be seen in two ways:
  1. negatively, as a kind of catastrophe, especially for those who do not believe in Christ and life everlasting in Him; and
  2. positively, as the end of a maturation process, which leads us to the encounter with our Maker. Christ has destroyed the power of the "last enemy," death (1 Cor. 18:26).
A Christian worthy of the name is not afraid of this physical death insofar as it is not accompanied by a spiritual or eternal (eschatological) death.

A partial judgment is instituted immediately after our physical death, which places us in an intermediate condition of partial blessedness (for the righteous), or partial suffering (for the unrighteous).

Disavowing a belief in the Western "Purgatory," our Church believes that a change is possible during this intermediate state and stage. The Church, militant and triumphant, is still one, which means that we can still influence one another with our prayers and our saintly (or ungodly) life. This is the reason why we pray for our dead. Also, almsgiving on behalf of the dead may be of some help to them, without implying, of course, that those who provide the alms are in some fashion "buying" anybody's salvation.

b) General Judgment - the Coming Again of Christ


The early Church lived in expectation of the "day of the Lord," the day of His coming again. The Church later realized that its time is known but to God; still, some signs of Christ's second coming were expected:
  1. The Gospel will be preached everywhere in the world (Matt. 24: 14; Luke 18:8; John 10: 16);
  2. The Jews will be converted to Christ (Rom. 11:25-26; cf. Hosea 3:5);
  3. Elijah, or even Enoch, will return (Mark 9:11);
  4. The Antichrist will appear with numerous false prophets accompanying him (1 John 2:10; 2 Thes. 2:3; Matt. 24:5);
  5. Physical phenomena, upheavals, wars, sufferings will occur (Matt. 24:6; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:25); and,
  6. The world will be destroyed by fire (ekpyrosis; see 2 Peter 3:5).
All these signs are expected to be given in due time; without them, the end-time will not come.

The resurrection of the dead is a miracle that will happen at the second coming of the Lord. According to the Creed: "I await the resurrection of the dead." This resurrection will be a new creation. However, our physical bodies as we know them now will be restored, in a spiritualized existence like that of the Lord after His Resurrection.

The final judgment will follow the resurrection of all. Some will rise to the resurrection of life, and some to the resurrection of judgment and condemnation. Christ will be our Judge on the basis of our deeds, our works of love or our acts of wickedness.

The end-time will follow, with a permanent separation between good and evil, between those who will be awarded etemal life of happiness and bliss in heaven, and those who will be condemned to the fire of eternal damnation, to the eternal remorse of their conscience for having rejected God and authentic life in Him and having joined the inauthentic life invented by the devil and his servants.

A new heaven and new earth will be established, inhabited by righteousness (2 Peter 3:13). The Kingdom of God will be fully established; the Church will cease to exist. Finally, the Son of God will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, "that God may be everything to everyone" (1 Cor. 15:28).



**Looks like eternal damnation.
 
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Josiah14

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This has been a very strange thread, from what I read in it. My experience is that you would be hard pressed to find anyone who claims to be Christian deny the immortality of the soul.

While a subgroup of people might have made this claim, I really do not see the point in saying this is what Protestants believe, as this seems to be more the exception. I think most Protestants would be offended at the way the discussion in this thread has often been addressing all Protestants when referring to disbelief in the soul's immortality, as most of them don't believe this.

We need to be more careful in our language.
 
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Light of the East

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depends on what you mean by die. as stated earlier, death is separation. so the soul that separates itself from the God who is Life, choses death over life, choses separation over communion. that soul is truly dead.

Rather than start a new thread, I am resurrecting this one with a question. It looks like Matt has the same idea that I have regarding what it means to be "immortal." Yes, the soul lives forever, but can it really be said to be "immortal" or "alive" if it is not united to God and does not come to a proper teleological end - union with God and being a "god" in union with Him?

I am coming here to learn because I am in a disagreement with another Christian who insists that the soul is immortal, even though the Early Fathers did not state this and the Sacred Scriptures speak of "....God, who alone hath immortality."

It seems then that the state of immortality, that is, to have self-existent life in perfection, is a quality of God alone, and that our natural state is not to have that. We are not self-existent. If God stopped thinking about us for even one second - POOF!! - Gone!

What say you to this? Am I on the right track or full of hot air?
 
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Light of the East

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God alone has immortality by nature. He, however, imparts immortality to us by grace. and a human is not truly alive unless in communion with God, soul and body.

That is the position I am taking, and I am catching hell from an RC priest on another forum, including being beaten about the head and shoulders with the CCC.
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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This has been a very strange thread, from what I read in it. My experience is that you would be hard pressed to find anyone who claims to be Christian deny the immortality of the soul.

While a subgroup of people might have made this claim, I really do not see the point in saying this is what Protestants believe, as this seems to be more the exception. I think most Protestants would be offended at the way the discussion in this thread has often been addressing all Protestants when referring to disbelief in the soul's immortality, as most of them don't believe this.

We need to be more careful in our language.
I think the arguments here about immortality have not been fairly presented so of course it seems like a fatuous idea. In fact a number of mainstream, respected Protestants, including Evangelical Anglican John Stott, have argued for something called Conditional Immortality, which basically says that only God and those who are united with God are immortal; man's natural state without God is mortality. Hell and its finality is eternal but the suffering of souls there is temporal and ceases after the General Judgement, because such souls perish apart from unity with God.

The idea is derived from Scripture, Tradition and reason.

1. Scripture. There are a number of versus such as John 3:16 (Tim Tebow's favourite) that suggest Conditional Immortality. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish (lit destruction) but have eternal life". Notice that belief leads to life; non belief leads to perishing-i.e. death. Those who reject Conditionality have to argue that non belief leads to life as well: an eternal life of suffering. That seems to contradict this and other verses.

2. Tradition. Church Fathers, especially early ones, may have believed in Conditional Immortality, though it probably never was the consensus view. Here's a paper on it which cites some Fathers, much probably out of context, so take it for what it is worth. http://www.truthaccordingtoscriptur...ctrine of Immortality in the Early Church.pdf

I think a case could be made that some believed in Conditionality.

3. Reason. Some have argued that it is contrary to God's nature the notion that He would purposely maintain souls alive and immortal only so they can be tormented in Hell eternally. There may be some flaws in the logic of this idea, but I should think it is not altogether different from those rather numerous Orthodox who argue for a form of universalism (e.g. David Bentley Hart) because they view the idea of God condemning ignorant souls to Hell as being incompatible with His nature as a loving God

All that said, I think the Florovsky article above cited is the most paradigmatic of an Orthodox Christian view of this subject.
 
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ArmyMatt

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That is the position I am taking, and I am catching hell from an RC priest on another forum, including being beaten about the head and shoulders with the CCC.

it happens. what is he saying?
 
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buzuxi

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People who believe in soul sleep or espouse something similar to it, do so by not understanding the ancient semitic and eastern Syrian tradition concerning the composite nature of man.

When St. Paul spoke about the Spirit, Soul and Body of man, as did Aphraates, St. Ephraim the Syrian, and St. Isaac the Syrian, along with Justin Martyr and countless others, they were giving the non-western understanding.
It was always the firm belief of the eastern semitic/Syrian that man is a tripartite being of a body and soul and a third entity of the Spirit.. Upon death the Spirit (ruah) of man ascends and is reunited with God who gave it irregardless of his disposition towards good or evil. Meanwhile the body and soul intrinsically linked together go to sheol/Hades/the pit. In this condition the soul is not asleep or dead but it is not fully alive neither because the soul cannot act independently apart from its vessel.

The western concept of the soul ( by western here i mean the eastern Orthodox byzantine understanding as opposed to the eastern Antiochene Edessa school) combines the spirit/soul into a single entity erasing this dichotomy. Thus the purest part of the soul is the nous which is the spark that always strives towards God. The soul is immortal because it is the animating life force of man and so it always remains a life force with or without its body.
 
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Light of the East

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I was curious so I did some research on some of the videos that were posted to support the argument on the thread. It seems that this idea of soul = body that is alive is tied to Seventh-day Adventist beliefs.

That is correct. The Adventists are the only ones I've ever seen or heard who championed this doctrine.

And no, Christ's Warrior, it is entirely false.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Light of the East

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that was pretty hard to follow...can you give me the basics? although one of the guys on there doesn't know the direction between Eastern and Western theology

The basic that started this kerfluffle was that I said that the human soul is not immortal. That is Scripture. They came back with the standard Roman boilerplate about "the CCC says it is immortal and you must obey the CCC to be Catholic" (No, I don't! I have to obey it to be ROMAN!!!)

So they start pounding me with the CCC and now we are into the issues of Original Sin and the Immaculate Conception, which two go hand in hand. I was told that the Roman Church does not teach that the guilt of Adam is transmitted to the child and I just used the CCC to show him that he is wrong. This should be interesting.

BTW - which guy doesn't know the distinction ( I think that's what you meant to say) between Eastern and Western theology?
 
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ArmyMatt

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The basic that started this kerfluffle was that I said that the human soul is not immortal. That is Scripture. They came back with the standard Roman boilerplate about "the CCC says it is immortal and you must obey the CCC to be Catholic" (No, I don't! I have to obey it to be ROMAN!!!)

So they start pounding me with the CCC and now we are into the issues of Original Sin and the Immaculate Conception, which two go hand in hand. I was told that the Roman Church does not teach that the guilt of Adam is transmitted to the child and I just used the CCC to show him that he is wrong. This should be interesting.

BTW - which guy doesn't know the distinction ( I think that's what you meant to say) between Eastern and Western theology?

I thought it was Obi-Wan
 
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Light of the East

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I thought it was Obi-Wan

Hahahahah.......he's a convert priest to the RCC from Anglicanism.

And yeah, he is always bustin' my back over some point of doctrine.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Hahahahah.......he's a convert priest to the RCC from Anglicanism.

And yeah, he is always bustin' my back over some point of doctrine.

I wonder how he would describe the Eastern Rite within the Roman confession
 
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