Limited vs unlimited atonement?

[Marvin Knox]

Marvin,
The key lies in the word "perhaps."
With God, there are NO "perhaps."
God said "let there be light"......"and there was light."

Sure - and if God had published somewhere the exact number of people who will have been saved by the work of Jesus Christ in the end then I would have used that figure.

But the point is that, whether there be 70 times 7 people saved in the end or, as one person has estimated, 7.7 believers, in the scriptureal sense, in both the Christian era and before - it would hardly by true what Jimmy said, namely:

"This view leaves Christ's precious blood spilled for no reason."

One person saved would not be "for no reason" and certainly not 7 or 8 billion saved through the shed blood of Christ.

I'm not sure what you mean by my use of the word "perhaps" being some kind of "key".
Could you explain that for us?

These last three months I have been reading the Bible at a ravenous pace. I cannot get enough of it. I could not figure out why. My mind, my heart and my eye has been singular. (with no thoughts of my own to initiate this) I now know why. God used me to preach the gospel to my father on his death bed. God used my prayers and me to do His work, yet I was not doing the praying, it was Christ in me. I look back on it now and realize this. God coordinated the entire thing. I was simply a tool in God's hand.
EVERYTHING is from God. Life itself, and our salvation.
May God Bless you richly!

Wonderful testimony.

I agree of course that everything is from God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This view leaves Christ's precious blood spilled for no reason.

Good grief, no. His death makes possible salvation for everyone. How is that "no reason"??

It is, in fact, the limited atonement position that is nonsensical, which leaves the majority of humanity without any possibility of salvation. But I know that's ok in your theology. But just not in the Bible.

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! Jon 1:29
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 Jn 2:2

 

[FreeGrace2]

A shepherd laying down his life for the sheep is not a sin offering.

Your opinion is refuted from Paul's writings and John's writings. Which you've rejected.

A shepherd laying down his life for the sheep is actually protecting them from danger, not saving them because they are 'bad' sheep.

The danger is the lake of fire. And all who believe in Him receive etenal life, which saves them from the lake of fire. But all believers already know that. Which is why they put their faith in Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I was not referring to the Spurgeon view (he was Calvinist) of Biblical paradox as your view. Instead referring to the 'talking passed each other' I see on this thread.

The following quotes from Spurgeon are insightful and should be taken as such. I'm not poking anyone in the eye, but giving perhaps a different perspective to this thread.

For example, this is what Spurgeon said reference 1 Timothy 2:

1 Timothy 2: New King James Version (NKJV)

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Spurgeon commentary:

What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I think not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. ‘All men,’ say they that is, ‘some men’: as if the Holy Ghost could not have said ‘some men’ If he had meant some men. ‘All men,’ say they; ‘that is, some of all sorts of men’: as if the Lord could not have said ‘All sorts of men’ if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written ‘all men,’ and unquestionably he means all men. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. ... My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God.(Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 26: 49-52)

In another sermon Spurgeon continues:

That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring. (New Park Street Pulpit, 4:337)

On being wooden on creeds:

Men who are morbidly anxious to possess a self-consistent creed, a creed which will put together and form a square like a Chinese puzzle, are very apt to narrow their souls. Those who will only believe what they can reconcile will necessarily disbelieve much of divine revelation. Those who receive by faith anything which they find in the Bible will receive two things, twenty things, ay, or twenty thousand things, though they cannot construct a theory which harmonizes them all. (“Faith,” Sword and Trowel, 1872)

In a later sermon:

I believe in predestination, yea, even in its very jots and tittles. I believe that the path of a single grain of dust in the March wind is ordained and settled by a decree which cannot be violated; that every word and thought of man, every flittering of a sparrow’s wing, every flight of a fly...that everything, in fact is foreknown and foreordained. But I do equally believe in the free agency of man, that man acts as he wills, especially in moral operations — choosing the evil with a will that is unbiased by anything that comes from God, biased only by his own depravity of heart and the perverseness of his habits; choosing the right too, with perfect freedom, though sacredly guided and led by the Holy Spirit...I believe that man is as accountable as if there were no destiny whatever...Where these two truths meet I do not know, nor do I want to know. They do not puzzle me, since I have given up my mind to believing them both.(Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. 15, 458).

More here by God's Grace:

Spurgeon’s Theology: Embracing Biblical Paradox - Resources - Eternal Perspective Ministries

Spurgeon believed in unlimited atonement. As I do.

 

[GillDouglas]

Good grief, no. His death makes possible salvation for everyone. How is that "no reason"??

It is, in fact, the limited atonement position that is nonsensical, which leaves the majority of humanity without any possibility of salvation. But I know that's ok in your theology. But just not in the Bible.

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! Jon 1:29
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 Jn 2:2

This is where we differ. Definite (limited) atonement guarantees that many will be saved because the application is based on God's will. While unlimited atonement doesn't guarantee that anyone will be saved because the application is based on a person's choice.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How does one believe? Does belief come from man or God? That is the question.

The Bible gives us the answer:

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Rom 10:10

I believe the Bible teaches that even our belief in and of itself is ALL of God. The whole thing is from God, from start to finish.

What verse is there that contradicts Rom 10:10?

Man was created to glorify God. All crowns in heaven will be thrown at the feet of the Lamb. Man will not and cannot glory in ANYTHING of himself. Any righteousness that comes out of man, even the act of believing in Jesus Christ is a gift from God. Man is absolutely nothing. God is absolutely everything.

There is no boasting just because a person believes what God promises.

In fact, Paul said this about that:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this (salvation) is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph 2

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Then you've misunderstood what you've been told. I have as many problems with Arminian theology as I do reformed theology.

Because Jesus promises that those who believe in Him receive eternal life, a gift that is irrevocable.

I'm saved because God saves believers. But don't take my word for it. But do take Paul's word for it.

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

What Christ's atoning work did for everyone was to purchase the gift of eternal life. But only those who believe in Him for it receive it.

Now, please explain what is wrong with my view."

I agree eternal life is a promise given to them that believe. "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. Galatians 3:16. "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus... And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:26,29. "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory... "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.." Ephesians 1:11-12,7.

OK, verses without any explanation of what they mean to you. But I agree with all of these. And every other verse as well.

So you say Christ's atoning work purchased the gift of eternal life for everyone, even those who will perish.

I gave the verses that say that He died for all. Isn't that enough?

Tell me, you say you believe in Him. So what exactly do you believe about Christ, if He did no more for you than for those perishing?

This is what I believe about Christ. That, of first importance, He died for my sins (1 Cor 15:3), paid the penalty, obtained an eternal inheritance (Heb 9:12), and gave me the gift of eternal life on the basis of believing in Him (John 3:16, 6:40) so that I would never perish (John 10:28).

Why do you say you have faith in the gospel if you don't believe Christ and His merits in and of themselves purchased your salvation?

I do believe that. Please read my posts. They purchased not only mine, but for the whole world as well.

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

This faith is empty with no substance.

Not mine. Any faith in anything other than the finished work of Christ on the cross is empty with no substance.

My faith is in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

What verse is there that teaches that we are saved by His death?

No doubt salvation is a promise! But it is an absolute by Gods grace to them that believe.

Yes, that is my view.

And unlimited atonement proponents do not believe this.

Well, you've never met me before, but now have been enlightened that not all UA proponents believe what you think they believe. You need to get out more and meet some more people.

This doctrine itself proves no faith at all in Christ's and His finished work to save.

This is just plain ignorance. You're still in confusion about His death saving people. It's His resurrection power that saves. Just read 1 Cor 15.

This is what's wrong with your view

No, you've only revealed what's wrong with your misunderstanding of my view.

But now I've enlightened you on my view, so I hope you'll not make that mistake again.

 

[MDC]

Spurgeon believed in unlimited atonement. As I do.

No he didn't. He completely opposed your view

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is where we differ. Definite (limited) atonement guarantees that many will be saved because the application is based on God's will.

But there aren't any verses that say that God chooses who will believe, which is basically the foundation for reformed election. God's promise alone guarantees that whosoever believes will be saved. Ever hear of John 3:16?

While unlimited atonement doesn't guarantee that anyone will be saved because the application is based on a person's choice.

How 'bout that! Which is true. We all have a choice, which the reformed either just keep missing, or just don't want to know it.

Paul was very diligent in trying to persuade men to believe in Christ.
Acts 18:4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

2 Cor 5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.

Do you understand that trying to persuade people requires them to choose?

 

[FreeGrace2]

No he didn't. He completely opposed your view

Keep reading. You'll find his views on the subject.

 

[MDC]

Keep reading. You'll find his views on the subject.

You believe the act of your faith saves you. Which of course you would reject what I just mentioned because you can't see this. Why do sinners perish in their sin if Christ already atoned for their sins? Your answer of unbelief being the reason, proves my point. And give proof that Spurgeon believed in unlimited atonement... which he didn't

 

[GillDouglas]

But there aren't any verses that say that God chooses who will believe, which is basically the foundation for reformed election. God's promise alone guarantees that whosoever believes will be saved. Ever hear of John 3:16??

Not all will believe, so all will not be saved.

How 'bout that! Which is true. We all have a choice, which the reformed either just keep missing, or just don't want to know it.

Paul was very diligent in trying to persuade men to believe in Christ.
Acts 18:4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

2 Cor 5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.

Do you understand that trying to persuade people requires them to choose?

We affirm that a choice is made, once enabled by the Spirit. But the difference is we affirm that the enabled will choose to accept God's gracious gift.

 

[redleghunter]

Spurgeon believed in unlimited atonement. As I do.

I would not go so far as saying Spurgeon believed in unlimited atonement.

Charles Spurgeon on Calvinism — Definite Atonement

 

[redleghunter]

But there aren't any verses that say that God chooses who will believe, which is basically the foundation for reformed election. God's promise alone guarantees that whosoever believes will be saved. Ever hear of John 3:16?

However, Jesus did say:

John 6: NKJV

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[JLB777]

a) Jesus died for the sins of the elect. Unbelievers have to go to Hell to pay for their sin.
b) Jesus died for the sins of everyone, except for the unforgivable sin (continued unbelief). Unbelievers go to Hell because of that sin.

Jesus died for all the sins of the world, that whoever believes, would not persih, but have everlasting life.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16




JLB

 

[JLB777]

Your opinion is refuted from Paul's writings and John's writings. Which you've rejected.


The danger is the lake of fire. And all who believe in Him receive etenal life, which saves them from the lake of fire. But all believers already know that. Which is why they put their faith in Him.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21;7-8

• all liars certainly includes Christians, who lie.
• murderers certainly includes Christians, who murder.
  
• sexually immoral certainly includes Christians, who are sexually immoral.
  
• sorcerers certainly includes Christians, who practice sorcery.
  
• idolaters certainly includes Christians, who practice idolatry.

Paul warns the Churches of this very thing, in his letters.


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If Christ’s blood was shed for those that refuse to accept this precious gift, than would God not have an even greater justification for sending these people to hell? Some people have a hard time believing a Loving God would send “good” (by their standard of “good”) to hell because they just refused to be Christians after knowing Christ, but if they understood how they trampled over the blood of Christ they would understand what they might deserve?

People aren't "sent to Hell" for refusing to be Christians". People are condemned to Hell for their sin.

 

[EmSw]

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21;7-8

• all liars certainly includes Christians, who lie.
• murderers certainly includes Christians, who murder.
  
• sexually immoral certainly includes Christians, who are sexually immoral.
  
• sorcerers certainly includes Christians, who practice sorcery.
  
• idolaters certainly includes Christians, who practice idolatry.

Paul warns the Churches of this very thing, in his letters.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

No need to try to convince FG2 of what is written in Revelation 21. All he sees is 'unbelieving'.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I don't see what is perhaps billions of people coming to be saved by believing on Him and the spilling of His precious bolod as "no reason".

Perhaps you could explain your statement.

Population at this moment: 7.5 billion. How many billions have died, as well? Most aren't saved. The road is wide that leads to destruction, and many are on it. If Christ died FOR these people (He didn't) then His blood was wasted.

 

[MDC]

But there aren't any verses that say that God chooses who will believe, which is basically the foundation for reformed election. God's promise alone guarantees that whosoever believes will be saved. Ever hear of John 3:16?


How 'bout that! Which is true. We all have a choice, which the reformed either just keep missing, or just don't want to know it.

Paul was very diligent in trying to persuade men to believe in Christ.
Acts 18:4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

2 Cor 5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.

Do you understand that trying to persuade people requires them to choose?

Your denial that salvation is by the election of grace, shows why you espouse an atonement that doesn't save in and of itself. The elect of God benefit from Christ's substitutionary atonement by faith. And these elect were redeemed by His blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Rev. 5:9.