Limited vs unlimited atonement?

[bling]

People aren't "sent to Hell" for refusing to be Christians". People are condemned to Hell for their sin.

Do people go to hell because they sinned or because their sins were not forgiven?

 

[St_Worm2]

Do people go to hell because they sinned or because their sins were not forgiven?

Uh, yes

 

[Marvin Knox]

Population at this moment: 7.5 billion. How many billions have died, as well? Most aren't saved. The road is wide that leads to destruction, and many are on it. If Christ died FOR these people (He didn't) then His blood was wasted.

I showed everyone several times how it wasn't.

Be that as it may - do you really think of Christ's sacrifice as exactly so many cc's of blood shed for exactly so many sins of exactly so many people?

That seems a little shallow to me.

Be sides that - the shedding of so many drops of blood accomplished absolutely nothing in and of itself.

You and I were not saved until those "drops of blood" were combined with our faith.

The fall of man came through a lack of faith in the Word of God and God has determined that salvation will come through faith in the Word of God and His shed blood.

No personal faith = no personal salvation. That is as true for the world as it was for you and me (some 2000 years after the atonement for the sins of you and me took place).

Speaking as a Reformed person myself (who taught all 5 points for many years) - the idea that if the blood was shed for a certain person then that person must be saved is a Calvinistic leap of illogical reasoning. It is not grounded in scripture.

A person can as well go for eternity unsaved after having had his sins atoned for as a person can go for 90 years.

Don't go beyond what is written. What is written is that the atonement was for the entire world and not just for the elect.

"He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
1 John 2:2

 

[Marvin Knox]

................. you espouse an atonement that doesn't save in and of itself.

The atonement doesn't save in and of itself.

God didn't intend that it should. He intended that salvation comes through faith.

People (the elect if you will) sometimes go for nearly a lifetime unsaved before they receive Christ by faith.

And that- some 2000 years after their sins were atoned for.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Do people go to hell because they sinned or because their sins were not forgiven?

Do murderers go to the chair because they murdered or because they didn't clemency from the governor?

Sinners will be punished for their crimes.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

do you really think of Christ's sacrifice as exactly so many cc's of blood shed for exactly so many sins of exactly so many people?

I don't think that. I think that ALL of Christ's blood was shed for some people: His elect.

the shedding of so many drops of blood accomplished absolutely nothing in and of itself.

That's an odd statement, and I completely disagree.

You and I were not saved until those "drops of blood" were combined with our faith.

We all know that. We also know that faith is a gift. We further know that the Golden Chain of Redemption cannot be broken. In other words, Christ will gain those that the Father has given Him.

Speaking as a Reformed person myself

If you are Reformed, I'm Bugs Bunny.

A person can as well go for eternity unsaved after having had his sins atoned for as a person can go for 90 years.

Yet another very odd statement, which I have no idea what to make of.

Don't go beyond what is written. What is written is that the atonement was for the entire world and not just for the elect.

The below verse is in reference to both Jew and gentile. In other words, Not just the Jews, but the Gentiles as well.

"He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
1 John 2:2

 

[GillDouglas]

The atonement doesn't save in and of itself.

God didn't intend that it should. He intended that salvation comes through faith.

People (the elect if you will) sometimes go for nearly a lifetime unsaved before they receive Christ by faith.

And that- some 2000 years after their sins were atoned for.

But surely if God has elected some and not all to eternal life, then the primary purpose of Christ's work was to redeem those that were elected. No other would be effectually called, redeemed by Christ; justified in His works, adopted by the Father, sanctified through the work of the Spirit, but the elect only. It would only be considered 'limited' in the sense that it is limited to this particular group; definite redemption for those who are actually saved as determined by God in eternity.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

But surely if God has elected some and not all to eternal life, then the primary purpose of Christ's work was to redeem those that were elected. No other would be effectually called, redeemed by Christ; justified in His works, adopted by the Father, sanctified through the work of the Spirit, but the elect only. It would only be considered 'limited' in the sense that it is limited to this particular group; definite redemption for those who are actually saved as determined by God in eternity.

Yes. That makes perfect sense, but not many have ears to hear it. If some are lost eternal, Christ did not die on their behalf. If He had, they would not be numbered among the lost.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I don't think that. I think that ALL of Christ's blood was shed for some people: His elect.

And not for them only but for the entire world.

But - really - if you don't want to be taken that way then don't use silly Calvinistic cliches about part of His blood being spilt for nothing and the like.

Christ's blood was not some kind of magic cleaning agent that was somehow applied to this sin and not to that sin.

I don't recall ever using that kind of shallow language ever in all the years I taught the doctrine of limited atonement.

As reasoning Reformed believers - we're better than that IMO.

That's an odd statement, and I completely disagree.

Not an odd statement at all. That's a perfectly clear statement. If you disagree then you disagree with the scriptures.

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." Eph. 2:1-3

You may be an exception to the rule. But you can count me in that group. And - that condition was some 2000 years after Christ shed His blood for my sins.

I say again - the shedding of His blood, in and of itself, does not accomplish salvation.

We all know that. We also know that faith is a gift. We further know that the Golden Chain of Redemption cannot be broken. In other words, Christ will gain those that the Father has given Him.

Those statements relate to the other 4 points of so called Calvinism as well as the Golden Chain - all of which I agree with. They have nothing at all to do with limited atonement.

If you are Reformed, I'm Bugs Bunny.

You seem to have a bunny fixation.

I am Reformed as was John Calvin with whom I am in agreement and vice versa - as shown in these quotes.

1 John 2:2--"he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world"----------------------- "CHRIST SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. and in the goodness of God is OFFERED UNTO ALL MEN WITHOUT DISTINCTION, HIS BLOOD BEING SHED NOT FOR A PART OF THE WORLD ONLY, BUT FOR THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE; for although in the world nothing is found worthy of the favor of God, yet he HOLDS OUT THE PROPITIATION TO THE WHOLE WORLD, since without exception he SUMMONS ALL TO THE FAITH OF CHRIST, which is nothing else than the door unto hope."

Mark 14:24: "This is my blood of the new testament, WHICH IS SHED FOR MANY"..................... "The word 'many' DOES NOT MEAN A PART OF THE WORLD ONLY, BUT THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE: he contrasts many with one as if to say that he would not be the Redeemer of one man, but would meet death to deliver many of their cursed guilt. No doubt that in speaking to a few Christ wished to make His teaching available to a larger number...So when we come to the holy table not only should the general idea come to our mind that THE WORLD IS REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST but also each should reckon to himself that his own sins are covered.

Romans 5:18: "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
"Paul makes grace COMMON TO ALL MEN, not because it in fact EXTENDS TO ALL, but because IT IS OFFERED TO ALL. Although CHRIST SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. AND IS OFFERED BY THE GOODNESS OF GOD WITHOUT DISTINCTION TO ALL MEN, yet not all receive him"

Calvin's "LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT, April 25, 1564":
"I testify also and declare, that I suppliantly beg of Him, that He may be pleased so to was and purify me in the blood which my Sovereign Redeemer HAS SHED FOR THE SINS OF THE HUMAN RACE, that under His shadow I may be able to stand at the judgment-seat....

Yet another very odd statement, which I have no idea what to make of.

That's interesting. You don't know what to make of it - and yet the entire premise of so called limited atonement stands or falls on the logic which says that a person for whom Christ shed His blood cannot go longer than this earthly existence in the same condition that Ephesians says were both in - even long after Christ atoned for our sins.

Where does it say that in the scriptures?

I take it from your Bugs Bunny crack that you are not interested in intellegent dialog but only wish to strike out at others who disagree with your particular view of limited atonement (such as John Calvin and any number of other good solid believers in the doctrines of grace).

I had hoped for something higher from you.

Have it if you must.

 

[Marvin Knox]

But surely if God has elected some and not all to eternal life, then the primary purpose of Christ's work was to redeem those that were elected.

Sure. I have not said otherwise.

But, having said that, there was a great deal more that Christ's work accomplished than just the salvation of the elect.

No other would be effectually called, redeemed by Christ; justified in His works, adopted by the Father, sanctified through the work of the Spirit, but the elect only.

That statement relates to other points of the doctrines of grace and not limited atonement. I agree with those other points.

It would only be considered 'limited' in the sense that it is limited to this particular group; definite redemption for those who are actually saved as determined by God in eternity.

Most of us (I would hope) believe in limited salvation. But limited atonement says a lot more than that.

Those who have been determined from before the world began to be eventually saved were not saved by the atonement.

With all due respect to the shedding of Christ's blood, the atonement did not accomplish salvation without a further work of God on behalf of some.

Having said that - all of us who believe in the absolute sovereignty of God understand that He had a plan from eternity to save some and not others through the atonement and the required faith which He would provide for the elect.

But the atonement can be for all even though all are not given faith.

The experience of you and I before faith was given to us (as well as Ephesians 2;1-3) prove that people can be lost and under the just wrath of God even after their sins were atoned for.

For what it's worth - there are many "theories" about how the atonement works, as you probably well know.

I don't think the Bible is crystal clear on the subject.

Obviously my view of the atonemet differs from some others here and likely from yours.

 

[GillDouglas]

Sure. I have not said otherwise.

But, having said that, there was a great deal more that Christ's work accomplished than just the salvation of the elect.

True indeed.

That statement relates to other points of the doctrines of grace and not limited atonement. I agree with those other points.

It is difficult to not consider the others as they are interwoven as one doctrine. I personally believe that if one is considered untrue, the rest may as well be.

Most of us (I would hope) believe in limited salvation. But limited atonement says a lot more than that.

It is poorly named as is Total Depravity. Total as in the whole of man afflicted/influenced by sin.

Those who have been determined from before the world began to be eventually saved were not saved by the atonement.

With all due respect to the shedding of Christ's blood, the atonement did not accomplish salvation without a further work of God on behalf of some.

The atonement applied to the elect by God at the appointed time.

Having said that - all of us who believe in the absolute sovereignty of God understand that He had a plan from eternity to save some and not others through the atonement and the required faith which He would provide for the elect.

I agree. But the atonement is an active agent in my opinion, it's implied by its title. And it must be applied.

But the atonement can be for all even though all are not given faith.

Common grace?

The experience of you and I before faith was given to us (as well as Ephesians 2;1-3) prove that people can be lost and under the just wrath of God even after their sins were atoned for.

It's difficult to wrap my mind around the decrees in eternity vs. Christ's work at His appointed time. But we know we can at least count our years before conversion as a loss as Paul did.

For what it's worth - there are many "theories" about how the atonement works, as you probably well know.

The realm of the spiritual and the workings of our soul are not areas we are made expert, that is certain.

I don't think the Bible is crystal clear on the subject.

We know enough, I believe, to have an idea (The effects of Adam's disobedience, what's necessary to have a desire for God, etc.) that many greater theologians have expounded upon.

Obviously my view of the atonemet differs from some others here and likely from yours.

I respect your understanding of the topic though I am curious how you've come to the conclusion you have. I'm sure you've explained exhaustively.

If it's the "All"s that have you, we know that it doesn't always mean every person. It could mean all of a particular group based on context - "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up." or it could be an exaggeration. It could mean every single person but then we are left with questions. Why isn't everyone saved? Is the atonement ineffective?

My other concern is reconciling with the other 4 points as they are closely linked and build off of each other, each important to the next.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

And not for them only but for the entire world.

"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins."

Christ's blood was not some kind of magic cleaning agent that was somehow applied to this sin and not to that sin.

"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins."

I say again - the shedding of His blood, in and of itself, does not accomplish salvation.

"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins."

I am Reformed as was John Calvin

I believe you are/were an elder in the PCUSA. Is that the case?

I take it from your Bugs Bunny crack that you are not interested in intellegent dialog but only wish to strike out at others who disagree with your particular view of limited atonement

Have you actually read any of the Reformers? They didn't mince their words or fail to use humor/sarcasm or even a peppering of ad hominem in their arguments. Don't mistake my style for my seriousness.

 

[JLB777]

No need to try to convince FG2 of what is written in Revelation 21. All he sees is 'unbelieving'.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-8


Yes those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have returned to unbelieving, and the former life of sin they once knew.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13



The truth of Revelation 21:7-8 remains.

• all liars certainly includes Christians, who lie.
• murderers certainly includes Christians, who murder.
  
• sexually immoral certainly includes Christians, who are sexually immoral.
  
• sorcerers certainly includes Christians, who practice sorcery.
  
• idolaters certainly includes Christians, who practice idolatry.

Paul warns the Churches of this very thing, in his letters.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

You believe the act of your faith saves you.

No, I don't believe that. It is wrong. God saves those who believe.

Which of course you would reject what I just mentioned because you can't see this.

See what?

Why do sinners perish in their sin if Christ already atoned for their sins?

Because they didn't receive the gift of eternal life, which is received only by faith in Christ. That's why.

Your answer of unbelief being the reason, proves my point. And give proof that Spurgeon believed in unlimited atonement... which he didn't

I asked for a source proving that he didn't. You haven't provided any.

But you have provided evidence that you haven't understood my position at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"But there aren't any verses that say that God chooses who will believe, which is basically the foundation for reformed election."

Not all will believe, so all will not be saved.

Of course not. But you failed to address my point. Reformed election leads to the necessity of God choosing who will believe. So, where is that found in Scripture?

We affirm that a choice is made, once enabled by the Spirit.

Sure. But, basically, that means that God chose who would believe.

But the difference is we affirm that the enabled will choose to accept God's gracious gift.

Sure. Affirmed by the reformed doctrine of irresistible grace.

But the bottom line is still that God chooses who will believe. Which makes evangelism meaningless. But I know that Calvinists cannot see this.

 

[JLB777]

Do people go to hell because they sinned or because their sins were not forgiven?

Because their sins were not forgiven.

Which is why Jesus taught us we can indeed lose the forgiveness we once obtained, if we ourselves do not forgive.

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” Matthew 18:22-35

• “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

We can indeed lose the forgiveness we once had from God, which is the basis for our salvation.

What also needs to be understood is how we receive the forgiveness of sins, which is repentance.

• 15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

Those who sin and refuse to hear and repent, are considered as heathen sinners, which is what Jesus taught as becoming "lost", like a sheep that has wandered from it's master.


Lost = A sinner in need of repentance; dead to God
Found = A sinner forgiven and reconciled back to God; alive to God

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

• Lost Coin:

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32



JLB

 

[JLB777]

No, I don't believe that. It is wrong. God saves those who believe.

Those who believe are saved.

• lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13


Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I would not go so far as saying Spurgeon believed in unlimited atonement.

Charles Spurgeon on Calvinism — Definite Atonement

I did a search and found that he didn't. I had read an excerpt once which certainly sounded as though he did. And the article containing that excerpt indicated that he did.

So I retract my former statement regarding his view.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"But there aren't any verses that say that God chooses who will believe, which is basically the foundation for reformed election. God's promise alone guarantees that whosoever believes will be saved. Ever hear of John 3:16?"

However, Jesus did say:

John 6: NKJV

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

I don't see how this addresses my point.

As for the Father "All the Father gives Me will come to Me", it is related to and further clarified a few verses further on in the context.

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Most Calvinists quote this verse as support for the idea that God chooses who will believe. However, the very next verse clarifies completely:

45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

The question is: how has God taught everyone? Rom 1:19-20 answers that.

So, it is those who have heard and learned from the Father who comes to Jesus.

It goes without saying that not all students listen and learn. Only those who do listen and learn will come to Jesus.

This in no way supports the idea that God chooses who will believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21;7-8

• all liars certainly includes Christians, who lie.
• murderers certainly includes Christians, who murder.
  
• sexually immoral certainly includes Christians, who are sexually immoral.
  
• sorcerers certainly includes Christians, who practice sorcery.
  
• idolaters certainly includes Christians, who practice idolatry.

Paul warns the Churches of this very thing, in his letters.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

I believe what Jesus promised:
"I give them eternal life, and they WILL NEVER PERISH." John 10:28

In order to never perish, one must only receive eternal life. Real simple.