Limited vs unlimited atonement?

[jimmyjimmy]

I, along with Calvin, believe the call to come to Christ to be saved is an outward call to ALL, w/o exception.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but in the way that you have stated it, I don't believe that it is an outward call to "ALL" for the simple reason that ALL have not heard such a call. Not every man woman and child has heard the gospel. Far from it. That's one way we know that it's only His elect who will be saved.

 

[EmSw]

The verse is about all unbelievers having a part in the lake of fire. Because they do not have eternal life. Rev 20:15

You are so bent on your doctrines, you don't even know what Revelation says.

Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Actually, the dead are judged according to their works, not belief. Your first mistake.
It's not the unbelieving as you say, but those not found written in the Book of Life. Your second mistake.
It's those who overcome, not those in unbelief. Your third mistake.
Unbelief is just a subset like the cowardly, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, ALL LIARS (which you deny and don't believe). Your fourth mistake.

I believe what the Bible says.

Except where it contradicts your beliefs.

I don't pick and choose what my heart desires and reject any part as you've done. Because they refute your views.

Yeah, and you don't lie either.

 

[EmSw]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but in the way that you have stated it, I don't believe that it is an outward call to "ALL" for the simple reason that ALL have not heard such a call. Not every man woman and child has heard the gospel, which is how we know that it's His elect who will be saved.

The disciples were called before they heard the gospel.

 

[redleghunter]

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.

Mercy is what He desires, and NOT SACRIFICE!

Yes he does not want lambs and goats as a sacrifice. Two points. First he was addressing Jews under Mosaic law. Second Jesus offered Himself the Lamb of God for our sins.

The OT types and shadows were fulfilled literally in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

So, what is it about remission do you not understand?

Perhaps this can clear up any misunderstandings :

REMISSION OF SINS

re-mish'-un (aphesis, paresis):

The two Greek words, of which the latter occurs only in Romans 3:25, were translated by the same English word in the King James Version. In the Revised Version (British and American), paresis is translation "passing over." It is contrasted with the other term as pretermission with remission. Remission is exemption from the consequences of an offense, forgiveness; pretermission is the suspension of the penalty (Philippi, Ellicott, Trench (Synonyms, XXXIII), Weiss; compare Acts 17:30). Cremer (Lexicon of N T Gr) regards the meaning of the two words as identical, except that the one refers to the Old Testament and the other to the New Testament. Sins are remitted when the offender is treated as though the offense had never been committed. Remission is restricted to the penalty, while forgiveness refers more particularly to the person, although it may be used also of the sin itself. Remission also is used of offenses against God's law; forgiveness, against either divine or human law.

See ABSOLUTION; FORGIVENESS.

H. E. Jacobs

Remission Of Sins Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

 

[redleghunter]

You are so bent on your doctrines, you don't even know what Revelation says.

Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Actually, the dead are judged according to their works, not belief. Your first mistake.
It's not the unbelieving as you say, but those not found written in the Book of Life. Your second mistake.
It's those who overcome, not those in unbelief. Your third mistake.
Unbelief is just a subset like the cowardly, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, ALL LIARS (which you deny and don't believe). Your fourth mistake.



Except where it contradicts your beliefs.



Yeah, and you don't lie either.

Yes the dead will be judged according to their works. The alive in Christ won't.

John 5: NKJV

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John 3: NKJV

17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

 

[EmSw]

Yes he does not want lambs and goats as a sacrifice. Two points. First he was addressing Jews under Mosaic law. Second Jesus offered Himself the Lamb of God for our sins.

The OT types and shadows were fulfilled literally in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

First point, it doesn't say the Lamb 'offered Himself' for the sins of the world. You added this yourself.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

God desires mercy rather than any sacrifice. How does His mercy take away our sins?

It is the same exact way as in the OT.

2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Jeremiah 26:13
Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; and the Lord will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Ezekiel 18:30
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Jonah 3:10
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Repent, turn from your sins, and God will forgive you.Why do you not believe this was how sins were forgiven in the OT? No sacrifice nor offering was needed!

Even Jesus said this about repentance -

Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

He did not say, if I am not sacrificed on the cross, you shall perish.

Want to know what 'forgive' is in Hebrew? Perhaps you didn't know this. Among other things, it means to lift, bear, take away, and to carry.

Now you know. No blood, no sacrifice, no offering, no cross, no lamb, no priest, and no death. All it takes is for a person to repent, turn from their sins, and turn to God. Now that's mercy!

 

[EmSw]

Perhaps this can clear up any misunderstandings :

REMISSION OF SINS

re-mish'-un (aphesis, paresis):

The two Greek words, of which the latter occurs only in Romans 3:25, were translated by the same English word in the King James Version. In the Revised Version (British and American), paresis is translation "passing over." It is contrasted with the other term as pretermission with remission. Remission is exemption from the consequences of an offense, forgiveness; pretermission is the suspension of the penalty (Philippi, Ellicott, Trench (Synonyms, XXXIII), Weiss; compare Acts 17:30). Cremer (Lexicon of N T Gr) regards the meaning of the two words as identical, except that the one refers to the Old Testament and the other to the New Testament. Sins are remitted when the offender is treated as though the offense had never been committed. Remission is restricted to the penalty, while forgiveness refers more particularly to the person, although it may be used also of the sin itself. Remission also is used of offenses against God's law; forgiveness, against either divine or human law.

See ABSOLUTION; FORGIVENESS.

H. E. Jacobs

Remission Of Sins Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

And to think, all that without a sacrifice, nor any blood.

 

[EmSw]

Yes the dead will be judged according to their works. The alive in Christ won't.

John 5: NKJV

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John 3: NKJV

17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Don't you just love John 5:28, 29? Those who have done good come forth to the resurrection of life.

 

[redleghunter]

First point, it doesn't say the Lamb 'offered Himself' for the sins of the world. You added this yourself.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

God desires mercy rather than any sacrifice. How does His mercy take away our sins?

It is the same exact way as in the OT.

2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Jeremiah 26:13
Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; and the Lord will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Ezekiel 18:30
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Jonah 3:10
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Repent, turn from your sins, and God will forgive you.Why do you not believe this was how sins were forgiven in the OT? No sacrifice nor offering was needed!

Even Jesus said this about repentance -

Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

He did not say, if I am not sacrificed on the cross, you shall perish.

Want to know what 'forgive' is in Hebrew? Perhaps you didn't know this. Among other things, it means to lift, bear, take away, and to carry.

Now you know. No blood, no sacrifice, no offering, no cross, no lamb, no priest, and no death. All it takes is for a person to repent, turn from their sins, and turn to God. Now that's mercy!

What was the purpose of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

 

[redleghunter]

And to think, all that without a sacrifice, nor any blood.

Indeed remission of sins has everything to do with the sacrifice for sins. The shedding of blood.

It was a requirement in the original Passover (Exodus 12) and reinforced as an ordinance in Leviticus 16.

Then instituted by Jesus Christ for the New Covenant:

For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

 

[redleghunter]

Don't you just love John 5:28, 29? Those who have done good come forth to the resurrection of life.

Indeed however don't forget what Jesus said when one passes from death to life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are so bent on your doctrines, you don't even know what Revelation says.

Your opinion is not the truth.

Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Exactly what I posted.

Revelation 21
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

All these words are adjectives that relate to unbelievers. You've proven nothing other than another attempt to pit Scripture against itself. There is nothing in Rev 21 that contradicts Rev 20, which seems to be your agenda.

Actually, the dead are judged according to their works, not belief. Your first mistake.

Right. They are judged according to their works. But not for whether they go to hell, or Rev 20:11-15 is wrong.

Jesus compared 2 ancient cities with cities contemporary with Him and noted that "it will be more tolerable" for Sodom & Gomorrha than current cities. Clearly He was indicating that rejection of the Messiah is worse than the sins of those ancient cities.

It's not the unbelieving as you say, but those not found written in the Book of Life. Your second mistake.

And your serious mistake is to miss the whole point that those "not found written in the Book of Life" aren't there for the reason that they never believed and therefore never received eternal life.

It's those who overcome, not those in unbelief.

Well, the Bible once again refutes your notions.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son (disbelief) will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Except where it contradicts your beliefs.

Kinda like when the Bible directly refutes your claims, so you just reject the Bible, huh.

 

[redleghunter]

First point, it doesn't say the Lamb 'offered Himself' for the sins of the world. You added this yourself.

Did I add to this most important fact of Christianity?

Revelation 5: NKJV

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

 

[DarthNeo]

I guess Jesus wasted His time warning about Hell then.

I'm not saying everyone is saved, just those who have faith in what Christ did...

 

[St_Worm2]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but in the way that you have stated it, I don't believe that it is an outward call to "ALL" for the simple reason that ALL have not heard such a call. Not every man woman and child has heard the gospel. Far from it. That's one way we know that it's only His elect who will be saved.

Hi JJ, yes, I agree, the way I said that is confusing. I meant that the outward call is not limited to God's elect alone, and in the Biblical sense of, "whosoever will may come", as well (not that all will hear, as the outward call is delivered by those with beautiful feet .. Romans 10:13-15, not by God directly).

I'm still not sure that I've conveyed my meaning properly, so I'll consider a better way to do that and get back to you (I would welcome any suggestions you may have, of course ).

Thanks for pointing out the problem!

--David

 

[MDC]

I'm not saying everyone is saved, just those who have faith in what Christ did...

And is why "limited atonement" is absolutely the correct biblical teaching. "He will save His people from their sins".. Matthew 1:21. "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep." John 10:11. ".. that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.." John 17: 2. "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified;.." Hebrews 10:14. Christ atonement has secured and ensured the salvation of His elect by faith. It is the grounds of our (believers) assurance. The merits of Christ, atonement and resurrection was for our (believers) justification. Romans 4:25. You cannot separate the two. "Unlimited atonement" denies the effectiveness and power of Christ atoning work

 

[MDC]

I see we've let this unbeliever in the vicarious, substitutionary suffering and death of Jesus Christ hijack this thread just as has taken place elsewhere.

It's a shame. But that's what happens over and over again when a forum takes an open, liberal, any theology goes format.

It is a shame. And not surprised at all that the MODS tolerate such. Could you please explain how you reconcile unconditional election with unlimited atonement?

 

[EmSw]

Indeed remission of sins has everything to do with the sacrifice for sins. The shedding of blood.

It was a requirement in the original Passover (Exodus 12) and reinforced as an ordinance in Leviticus 16.

Then instituted by Jesus Christ for the New Covenant:

For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

When will you believe God's word? The Passover was not for remission of sins. Please read the story before you listen to others or assume what it says. Now, for the third time, I will give you how sins are forgiven.

2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Why do you not believe this? Is it not how you want it done?

Since we know blood is not required for remission of sins, Jesus wasn't speaking of His 'physical' blood. What is shedding blood? Strong's says this about 'shed' -

to pour forth; figuratively, to bestow:—gush (pour) out, run greedily (out), shed (abroad, forth), spill, metaph. to bestow or distribute largely.

Since we know the 'cup' was before Jesus' death and didn't contain His physical blood, we can take it figuratively. Now all we have to do is figure out what did Jesus bestow, distributed largely, or shed abroad before His death. What did Jesus bestow or distribute during His earthly ministry.

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Did Jesus bestow and distribute grace and truth?

 

[EmSw]

Indeed however don't forget what Jesus said when one passes from death to life.

How about that? We not only have hearing the word and believing on Him Who sent Jesus, we also have doing good.

People don't like the 'doing good' part; it just doesn't agree with their earthly desires.