Orthodox vs. Protestant belief differences?

[Constantine the Sinner]

Some several individuals and resources: sites, books. Please explain the Biblical teaching of Justification. Thanks

Christ fully satisfied the law with his death, then resurrects because God cannot die, his new life being free of the law. Through mystical participation in his death and resurrection, we are also freed. But if you participate without a clean conscience, it will be to your condemnation.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Thanks for your comments. I have been explaining the term "Legalism" to them. Because we need to teach preach against "Legalism" & "Antinomianism". Because the protestant position has been accused of being "Antinomianism", like Paul was when he preached the Gospel of Grace! But they do not continuing reading to understand where our works sit.

The Catholic church also states that Salvation is by Grace, until you read the printed words in their confessions. (Council of Trent)
Okay? where is Christ in your teachings? What does he do? Why do you need Christ if people are not born sinners? Why not make us all like him, instead of being from this earth? Why not be in heaven from birth?


But where is the good news for the ungodly? Why only emphasize on our works, instead of His? The way I see it, when we are looking inside ourselves for redemption, instead outside of ourselves to Christ who came into the world to fulfill the Law not abolish it. Because this requires Perfect holiness without a single blemish. So I find it an insanely powerful statement, that the EOC is aware of the distance between humanity of God.

Everyone is born under the law of death since the fall, even Christ.

Christ is inside us.

 

[FenderTL5]

I am a convinced protestant reformed.

That could explain the misinformation from your earlier post.

 

[Vicomte13]

Folks gave me things to read, but none of them addressed the pressing questions of life that form the primary distinctions between the Christian denominations in our day.

Somebody pointed out that there are many Christians who don't follow the teachings of their churches on this matter. So what? People don't obey God whenever they feel like not obeying God. It's called "sin".

There is, nevertheless, what God has revealed to be his law, and each denomination has some assemblage of answers to these questions, and each believes that their answer is God's will and God's answer.

That is why this litany of questions is useful: these are the actual issues of our day.

I'm going to go through and answer them from the perspective of the catechism and canon law of the Catholic Church. Individual Catholics, like individual anything else, do as they please. It's called "free will". The Church doesn't keep tabs on people - it's up to individuals to repent of their sins. To know what sin IS, though, requires a standard that comes from God. Human beings are very slippery and try real hard, with rationalization and logic, to turn sin into "not sin". But God has revealed an absolute set of standards on these matters, and the Catholic Church - as The Church, not as a collection of individuals - believes the following on these matters:

Are Christians permitted to divorce and remarry?
NEVER.

Are Christians permitted to use artificial contraception?
NEVER.

Is abortion ever permissible?
TO SAVE THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER, IF THE MOTHER SO DECIDES.

Is the death penalty as a punishment for crime ever warranted?
IN THEORY, WITH PROPER CONTROLS, YES. IN THE MODERN DAY WITH MODERN RESOURCES, NO.

May Christians participate in offensive war?
NO. ONLY IN A JUST WAR, AND OFFENSIVE WARS ARE NOT JUST WARS.

May Christians ever participate in a violent revolution?
IN A DEFENSIVE JUST WAR OF REVOLUTION, YES. OTHERWISE, NO.

May Christians ever participate in a tax revolt?
NO.

Are Christians required to keep any of the food laws or Sabbath laws or feast laws of the Torah?
NO.

Is baptism in water required to pass final judgement?
NO.

Are people judged by God on their beliefs or their deeds?
DEEDS. THE DEEDS DONE BY A MAN ARE THE OBJECTIVE DEMONSTRATION OF HIS OBEDIENCE TO GOD.

If you agree with those things, you should be a Catholic, because no other Christian sect comes even close to that set of beliefs. If you DON'T agree with one or more of those things, you can be a bad Catholic, like the pro-choice Democrat Catholics (the Kennedys, Pelosis, and Bidens of the world, etc.) , but why bother? There are Protestant or Orthodox Churches who believe what you do on those things.
One can divorce and remarry in virtually all of the other Christian churches. There are churches who marry gays, have female priests, and who teach that abortion is a woman's choice. There are churches who keep the Sabbath, or who insist that without full-body, three-time, full immersion in running water, one is not baptized and cannot therefore be saved. Whatever your religious hobbyhorse is, other people think that, and you can go join them.

You can join Catholicism anytime you want, but if you do, those answers to the questions above are God's answers, they're not going to change, so if you can't stand the answers, you will not be happy as a Catholic.

 

[Marvin Knox]

................... there are Protestants who reject monergism, such as Methodists and Pentecostals.

Sure for receiving the Holy Spirit in the most basic regenerative sense.

But even Calvinists believe in synergistic salvation in the ongoing sanctification sense. That is to say that there is cooperation between them and God to some degree in the process which only began when one was regenerated and sealed.

Orthodox believe that cooperating with God means your operations and his becoming one (thus you become operationally God, but not essentially God--this is Theosis.

Almost all Protestants believe the same. We usually call that process "sanctification".

But we also believe that there is a beginning to the process which most term "regeneration".

Generally Calvinists believe that regeneration is monergistic and most non-Calvinists believe that regeneration is synergistic.

But the difference I'm saying that I sense between Protestant and Orthodox views of salvation is that most Protestants (certainly Reformed Protestants) believe that there is an initial time of beginning which we call being born "again" where we not only receive the Holy Spirit for the power to begin the sanctification process but are sealed for eternity by the same Holy Spirit at that time.

There are many more apparent differences which I've encountered here in the forum between most Protestants and Orthodox. They include a different view of the salvatory effect of the sacriments and their view of Mary etc.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Sure for receiving the Holy Spirit in the most basic regenerative sense.

But even Calvinists believe in synergistic salvation in the ongoing sanctification sense. That is to say that there is cooperation between them and God to some degree in the process which only began when one was regenerated and sealed.

Almost all Protestants believe the same. We usually call that process "sanctification".

But we also believe that there is a beginning to the process which most term "regeneration".

Generally Calvinists believe that regeneration is monergistic and most non-Calvinists believe that regeneration is synergistic.

But the difference I'm saying that I sense between Protestant and Orthodox views of salvation is that most Protestants (certainly Reformed Protestants) believe that there is an initial time of beginning which we call being born "again" where we not only receive the Holy Spirit for the power to begin the sanctification process but are sealed for eternity by the same Holy Spirit at that time.

There are many more apparent differences which I've encountered here in the forum between most Protestants and Orthodox. They include a different view of the salvatory effect of the sacriments and their view of Mary etc.

Well God does the prompting and gives you the freedom cooperate, but you also need to participate from the get go by sharing in Christ's death.

 

[Petros2015]

But where is the good news for the ungodly? Why only emphasize on our works, instead of His?

Think of it this way. I'm in total darkness, pitch black. Wearing a blindfold. Suddenly I see a light. That Light is God. "I'm saved!"

That's the work of Christ.

I could NOT have done that work, it is given by grace. My work after that, after it is shown to me, is to head towards that Light. The Church and sacraments and traditions and scriptures all facilitate that. Prayer and the Holy Spirit of God facilitate that. Christ wants it, God wants it, the image of God He made me in wants it, the Holy Spirit within me wants it, the sin in me does NOT.

We call people who make it deep into that light "Saints". And we believe that Light is calling every Christian to sainthood and every person to salvation. Without that Light though, I am 100% in the dark. Every step I take in the right direction is 100% by grace. I didn't even know I was wearing a blindfold, and it was the work of God to take that off.

So yes, I'm "saved". And that Light is going to keep shining on me my whole life whether I am heading toward it or not. But I work out my salvation with "fear and trembling". I do NOT want that Light to go out. And I do not want that blindfold back on. And by the measure of the grace of the Holy Spirit I've been given, I want to get as close to it as I can get.

The closer I get, the more I'm given to know of myself, the more I'm given to know of what to repent. The more I repent, and seek and follow His Will, the closer I get. The more useful a servant I become. The more I am transformed. The sacrament of Communion is part of this, as is the sacrament of Confession. These things go hand in hand. It makes more sense if you understand salvation as a process of transformation and progress under the care of God and the Church as an instrument established by Christ for this purpose.

And there are things along the way I find

Ephesians 2:10

These I'm just happy to be able to do.

I think the Protestant tradition would describe itself more as a "walk with Christ" and the Orthodox might describe itself more as a "walk to Christ". A Protestant might say "My salvation is complete through Christ!", an Orthodox might say "My salvation is being completed through Christ!" I would say that it is one thing to be forgiven of sin, and another thing to have it removed. "Forgive me, but let me keep it," is different from "Forgive me, and please take it away, give me more of You in it's place". I find my salvation not so much in forgiveness as in removal (and replacement). Doubtless it will be woefully incomplete, but I'll leave it to God to make up the difference after my death. This too, is Christ.

One thing no one in this thread has touched on is that the Orthodox concept of Heaven and Hell is substantially different I think from RCC and Protestant.

In my understanding, for us, God is present in both. And the experience of that is entirely relative to the individual soul. Through the sacrifice of Christ, we are spending our lives making ourselves ready to be in His presence and to experience that eternal life and presence as Heaven and not Hell.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

We both know that isn't true.

I have told him numerous times...I do not know why he thinks that he is Orthodox...

 

[Silmarien]

Okay? where is Christ in your teachings? What does he do? Why do you need Christ if people are not born sinners? Why not make us all like him, instead of being from this earth? Why not be in heaven from birth?

I'm not Orthodox. Just someone for whom Christianity always seemed shallow, incoherent, and impossible until I ran into Orthodox theology and things finally started falling into place. I'm not sure how you're missing Christ in Orthodox teachings, though, unless lack of familiarity with the language that Orthodoxy uses is causing problems.

 

[ladodgers6]

Different icons are presented to the couple in different traditions.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[ladodgers6]

Christ fully satisfied the law with his death, then resurrects because God cannot die, his new life being free of the law. Through mystical participation in his death and resurrection, we are also freed. But if you participate without a clean conscience, it will be to your condemnation.

Thanks for your comments. Before I explain the Biblical teaching of Justification. Can you clarify Why Christ had to satisfy the Law?

 

[ladodgers6]

Everyone is born under the law of death since the fall, even Christ.

Christ is inside us.

You speak differently from others I have engaged with. They say that not until a person personally sins, that they need Christ. But that people are not included in the judgement of the first Adam. Please explain.

 

[ladodgers6]

That could explain the misinformation from your earlier post.

I am getting my information from your camp. I am just echoing it.

 

[ladodgers6]

Think of it this way. I'm in total darkness, pitch black. Wearing a blindfold. Suddenly I see a light. That Light is God. "I'm saved!"

That's the work of Christ.

I could NOT have done that work, it is given by grace. My work after that, after it is shown to me, is to head towards that Light. The Church and sacraments and traditions and scriptures all facilitate that. Prayer and the Holy Spirit of God facilitate that. Christ wants it, God wants it, the image of God He made me in wants it, the Holy Spirit within me wants it, the sin in me does NOT.

We call people who make it deep into that light "Saints". And we believe that Light is calling every Christian to sainthood and every person to salvation. Without that Light though, I am 100% in the dark. Every step I take in the right direction is 100% by grace. I didn't even know I was wearing a blindfold, and it was the work of God to take that off.

So yes, I'm "saved". And that Light is going to keep shining on me my whole life whether I am heading toward it or not. But I work out my salvation with "fear and trembling". I do NOT want that Light to go out. And I do not want that blindfold back on. And by the measure of the grace of the Holy Spirit I've been given, I want to get as close to it as I can get.

The closer I get, the more I'm given to know of myself, the more I'm given to know of what to repent. The more I repent, and seek and follow His Will, the closer I get. The more useful a servant I become. The more I am transformed. The sacrament of Communion is part of this, as is the sacrament of Confession. These things go hand in hand. It makes more sense if you understand salvation as a process of transformation and progress under the care of God and the Church as an instrument established by Christ for this purpose.

And there are things along the way I find

Ephesians 2:10

These I'm just happy to be able to do.

I think the Protestant tradition would describe itself more as a "walk with Christ" and the Orthodox might describe itself more as a "walk to Christ". A Protestant might say "My salvation is complete through Christ!", an Orthodox might say "My salvation is being completed through Christ!" I would say that it is one thing to be forgiven of sin, and another thing to have it removed. "Forgive me, but let me keep it," is different from "Forgive me, and please take it away, give me more of You in it's place". I find my salvation not so much in forgiveness as in removal (and replacement). Doubtless it will be woefully incomplete, but I'll leave it to God to make up the difference after my death. This too, is Christ.

One thing no one in this thread has touched on is that the Orthodox concept of Heaven and Hell is substantially different I think from RCC and Protestant.

In my understanding, for us, God is present in both. And the experience of that is entirely relative to the individual soul. Through the sacrifice of Christ, we are spending our lives making ourselves ready to be in His presence and to experience that eternal life and presence as Heaven and not Hell.

Yes, we believe God's present in both as well. But reading your post, I notice that Salvation lies in the Transformation & Process, rather than in Christ our Mediator. Who stood in our stead and took upon his head the full wrath of a Holy Righteous God. Its Christ and His Perfect Righteousness that PROPITIATED the wrath of God. Only in Christ can we live and grow in the Faith to Persevere as Saints. Because our victory has already be won.

Now walking in holiness is a duty of all Christians. Because we are dead to sin and alive to God in Christ. Only in Christ our Mediator we find life. Not in our transformation. Sorry but this is the old teaching of legalism. Placing hope in our own efforts, instead of finding it in another. When Paul preached the Gospel of Christ. He was condemned by the Pharisees for antinomianism. What Paul once condemned and executed Christians for; Faith in the Gospel apart from the Law. He now was preaching and teaching, and was condemned by the Pharisees and Judaizers .

 

[ladodgers6]

I'm not Orthodox. Just someone for whom Christianity always seemed shallow, incoherent, and impossible until I ran into Orthodox theology and things finally started falling into place. I'm not sure how you're missing Christ in Orthodox teachings, though, unless lack of familiarity with the language that Orthodoxy uses is causing problems.

I am a convinced Calvinist. And I am glad to hear the Gospel of Christ that Paul preached through the Reformers. Especially the doctrine of Justification. As I read EOC material, I find it a heavy yolk. Because transformation is the basis for Salvation. Instead of the Perfect sanctification of another who through His perfect obedience earn salvation for me!

1 Corinthians 1:30 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God-that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption

 

[Silmarien]

I am a convinced Calvinist. And I am glad to hear the Gospel of Christ that Paul preached through the Reformers. Especially the doctrine of Justification. As I read EOC material, I find it a heavy yolk. Because transformation is the basis for Salvation. Instead of the Perfect sanctification of another who through His perfect obedience earn salvation for me!

1 Corinthians 1:30 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God-that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption

Did you just change your faith status? I can't imagine not having noticed that you were a Calvinist before now, haha. I can see where the problems are coming from, though. Other forms of Protestantism may be more or less compatible with EO, but Calvinism... not so much, obviously. I think every point of TULIP's a dead end for Orthodoxy.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Well God does the prompting and gives you the freedom cooperate, but you also need to participate from the get go by sharing in Christ's death.

Whether one believes (as do Calvinists) that regeneration preceeds faith or the other way around (as do Arminians) -- we all believe that initial salvation includes responding to the "prompts" of God.

I'm not sure what you mean by "sharing in Christ's death".

If that has to do with dying to self daily and taking up His cross in that way - most Protestants would have no trouble using that language.

If, on the other hand, it is meant in the same sense that, say, Mother Theresa meant it - we would have a big problem.

To paraphase her - we earn our way to Heaven by dying to self in the form of good works.

She also taught that any religion could make it to Heaven as long as the person following it "filled up what was lacking in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ" by suffering himself.

To that end she was know to have withheld pain medications from the dying in order that they might more likely make it to Heaven.

I doubt that Orthodox would think that way any more than would Protestants.

 

[Christina C]

Yes, we believe God's present in both as well. But reading your post, I notice that Salvation lies in the Transformation & Process, rather than in Christ our Mediator. Who stood in our stead and took upon his head the full wrath of a Holy Righteous God. Its Christ and His Perfect Righteousness that PROPITIATED the wrath of God. Only in Christ can we live and grow in the Faith to Persevere as Saints. Because our victory has already be won.

Now walking in holiness is a duty of all Christians. Because we are dead to sin and alive to God in Christ. Only in Christ our Mediator we find life. Not in our transformation. Sorry but this is the old teaching of legalism. Placing hope in our own efforts, instead of finding it in another. When Paul preached the Gospel of Christ. He was condemned by the Pharisees for antinomianism. What Paul once condemned and executed Christians for; Faith in the Gospel apart from the Law. He now was preaching and teaching, and was condemned by the Pharisees and Judaizers .

Propitiation or Expiation?

Propitiation or Expiation? Did Christ “Change God’s Attitude?”

Expiation, Blood and Atonement · Journey To Orthodoxy

 

[All4Christ]

Then I suppose Orthodoxy doesn't suit me.

One reason for holding such a view; the sacrament of marriage can be invalidated by 1 Corinthians 7:32-35

Could the other sacraments be open to similar scriptural vulnerabilities?

Please stop by The Ancient Way...we'd be happy to explain what we (Orthodox) believe first-hand. Often, the terminology can mean different things which can make it difficult to explain without being Orthodox, though some here have done a decent job of explaining it.

 

[friend of]

Thanks All4Christ!