Orthodox vs. Protestant belief differences?

[friend of]

Are Christians permitted to divorce and remarry?
Are Christians permitted to use artificial contraception?
Is abortion ever permissible?
Is the death penalty as a punishment for crime ever warranted?
May Christians participate in offensive war?
May Christians ever participate in a violent revolution?
May Christians ever participate in a tax revolt?
Are Christians required to keep any of the food laws or Sabbath laws or feast laws of the Torah?
Is baptism in water required to pass final judgement?
Are people judged by God on their beliefs or their deeds?

I've found decisive answers to most of these and I've only been reading the bible for a few months now...

 

[Vicomte13]

I've found decisive answers to most of these and I've only been reading the bible for a few months now...

Good. And what ARE those answers? Because the answers to those questions, more than any other thing, will determine which denomination you will find most compatible.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Alas, I've seen it with my own eyes. See my anecdote about my Father.

Christ is risen.

It doesn't say anything about being barred by the parish from coming in, it just mentions a confused parishioner .

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Wait, really? I thought penal substitution was pretty much incompatible.

You would be correct. Communion would pointless if Christ were simply a penal substitute.

 

[Tangible]

You would be correct. Communion would pointless if Christ were simply a penal substitute.

Can you expand on that a bit?

And what if penal substitution were one facet of many in attempting to grapple with the whole concept of justification?

 

[Vicomte13]

Yes, many of these questions are answerable and answered in the Holy Scriptures when the scriptures are read in context of the entire witness of scripture, with the proper distinction of law and gospel applied.

Other questions are not answered, and with these God expects us to listen to our consciences, informed by the scriptures, to employ our freedom in Christ responsibly.

Perfect!
So, what ARE the answers?
For it is in the answers to these very questions that we find the practical distinctions among the denominations today. One can use the answers as a roadmap to the denominations, and find the Church that most closely believes what one believes to be true.

It's great that the Bible answers these questions. I think it does too. I doubt that what I think the Bible means on these issues will correspond to what you think it means.

That was my point in listing the questions. In the modern world, most American Christians really don't understand or care about the theological debates of the 4th Century. They are abstractions. But the legal, ethical and moral debates of our own century - everybody cares very much about these, and the Christian denominations all answer these questions differently. These modern issues, and not ancient abstractions, are what practically separates one denomination from the other.

Catholics, the Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Mormons, UCCs, Jehovah's Witnesses and Quakers all have different sets of answers. All read the same Bible (more or less) and all pray to the same God, but they don't agree on what the Bible means, or what God intends.

I asked the questions to flush out into the open the fundamental political issues whose answers divide the modern Christian world.

 

[Vicomte13]

I demand an answer to this ^

Of course it's a sin. Indeed, it's THE sin by which most of us become aware of what sin is, without being taught by any other human being. As individuals we discover it - nobody teaches it. As individuals we immediately know, without being taught by anybody, that we have to HIDE it. As individuals we very quickly discover that we cannot resist it even if we want to.

It is at this very point in life, the discovery of masturbation, where half of humanity starts to walk swiftly away from God, to HIDE from God.

Of course it's a sin. And the fact that we all KNOW IT from the instant we discover it, having never been taught a thing about it, is probably the most important "teachable moment" in every person's life.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Can you expand on that a bit?

And what if penal substitution were one facet of many in attempting to grapple with the whole concept of justification?

I mean there is no point in participating in Christ's death if it is an event that saves us externally.

The idea of Christ's death having a juridical premise is correct, he did, as he said, fulfill the law. But the Narnia idea is proper here: God did not put Christ to death, that would mean God killed himself. Rather the Devil, who brought death and bondage to the law on us, did, not knowing it would end the law and his power as "warden" (a criminal warden, to be sure).

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Thanks for this post. Great insight. I came across this topic of "THEOSIS" A few months ago, and as a Convinced Protestant, I disagree with Eastern Orthodoxy. There is no Complete Fall of all mankind in the first Adam. That which can LIVE a PERFECT godly LIFE now. That the person pursuing this Perfect godly glory join God in substance to where they become one, in a way. How a person gets to this place is not clear. Because as I researched this topic for months. I got different answer within their own circle. This "THEOSIS" topic they teach & preach strongly suggests "LEGALISM". They deny this conclusion.

I asked then the next obvious question. Then HOW is one saved? Or better yet WHY do they need to be saved IF they are not sinners under the Fall? And a very crucial piece I discovered from this "THEOSIS", there is no Christ. No mediator to intercede for us. So what they fail to see, is the great gap between us and God. And fill it with this "THEOSIS" to reach God. Now if this is not "LEGALISM", I don't know what is. They also teach about "ICONS". These ICONS are figurines that are placed one a table and in a sense worshipped. I am still doing my homework to be fair here. Because my intent is to not caricature what they believe & teach.

No mention of the Gospel for the ungodly. Only demands of Perfect Obedience! And this bondage of the Law for sinners if the curse of it. The ungodly cannot fulfill these demands. A Perfect Mediator is required here to fulfill these demands for us.

Protestant theology also teaches "THEOSIS", but I think its called Sanctification; being more Christ like. But the major difference is that in Protestant teaching, Sanctification is also included in the Gospel to the ungodly. Christ fulfilled His Father's Will completely. Christ has propitiated the wrath of God by His Perfect Obedience as He stood in our place so we can stand in His. (Double Imputation-Our sin to Christ; Christ's righteousness to us). So in Christ we stand completely blameless because of His blood. Christ's last words on earth is, "IT IS FINISH".

Yes as believers we must walk in good deeds by taking every opportunity to do good. Because we are FREED from the curse of the Law that condemns all sinners. Being HIDDEN in Christ we can go and do good works (Col. 3)

So for me this is a very crucial point of difference. Because without Christ they MUST take the full weight of the Law on your back and strive to live the Perfect godly life on their OWN. Which is absolutely impossible for man. There is no peace of conscience here. There is assurance of the soul here, only misery & despair. That is not the good news.

So from what Orthodox resource do you derive the idea we cannot lean upon Christ for our own salvation?

 

[Tangible]

Catholics, the Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Mormons, UCCs, Jehovah's Witnesses and Quakers all have different sets of answers. All read the same Bible (more or less) and all pray to the same God, but they don't agree on what the Bible means, or what God intends.

Even Catholics vs. Catholics, Anglicans vs. Anglicans, and Lutherans vs. Lutherans. (... the Orthodox are an enigma to me.)

Yet there is only one correct answer to questions that are actually answered in the scriptures.

Some err in binding consciences to answers not found in scripture. Others err in not binding consciences to answers that are indeed found in scripture.

These errors are all justified by their subscribers, of course, and yet with each question there is either a scriptural answer to which consciences should be bound or no answer given in which we have freedom to responsibly and compassionately decide for ourselves.

Some are easy. Abortion is murder. QED. Arguments to the contrary are attempts at self justification.

Buying an expensive sports car? Use your freedom responsibly.

 

[Jack Isaacks]

Wait, really? I thought penal substitution was pretty much incompatible.

I've noticed in my 45 years of being Orthodox that people have weird ideas about us.

There is more to the worship of Orthodoxy than Sunday Morning Divine Liturgy, though many parishes don't do much more.

Anyway, please read the texts I pointed out.

Christ is risen!

 

[Vicomte13]

Even Catholics vs. Catholics, Anglicans vs. Anglicans, and Lutherans vs. Lutherans. (... the Orthodox are an enigma to me.)

Yet there is only one correct answer to questions that are actually answered in the scriptures.

Some err in binding consciences to answers not found in scripture. Others err in not binding consciences to answers that are indeed found in scripture.

These errors are all justified by their subscribers, of course, and yet with each question there is either a scriptural answer to which consciences should be bound or no answer given in which we have freedom to responsibly and compassionately decide for ourselves.

Some are easy. Abortion is murder. QED. Arguments to the contrary are attempts at self justification.

Buying an expensive sports car? Use your freedom responsibly.

Each denomination of size has an official governing body, and a specific answer to those questions. In a later post I will say what the Catholic answers are. Where I disagree, I will say so.

Some of the tone of the thread is of the genre that one MUST believe thus-and-so to be part of denomination X.

It is illuminating to know what one is supposed to believe if one is, say, a Lutheran.

 

[Traveling teacher]

I believe the great schism called the western schism....300 ad..nicean creed
and the east-west schism 1054ad
this Is what is being refered to here........

European church or catholic church split from the eastern orthodox church at voth of these times.........
Many disagreements were dicussed but the central issue was the Trinity and the Father Son relationship along with the holy Spirit and their authority.....
Also I bleieve the capitals of constantinople and Rome and who woud lead their churches as bishop were an issue.....
also I believe the worship of idols was an issue....
as I have visited some russian orthodox churches and they post pictures but no idols....

there has been many attempts to reconcile these diferendces in recent times....

 

[Tangible]

Please refresh my memory.

Give Book, Chapter, and Verse where our Lord, God, and Savior Jeus Christ called anyone a liar.

Christ is risen!

...

 

[Tangible]

also I believe the worship of idols was an issue....
as I have visited some russian orthodox churches and they post pictures but no idols....

Use of the word 'idol' to refer to Christian art is problematic. You might consider rephrasing.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Use of the word 'idol' to refer to Christian art is problematic. You might consider rephrasing.

It's really a question of whether or not something physical can be holy, which is a very important affirmation in our Christology.

 

[Silmarien]

Of course it's a sin. Indeed, it's THE sin by which most of us become aware of what sin is, without being taught by any other human being. As individuals we discover it - nobody teaches it. As individuals we immediately know, without being taught by anybody, that we have to HIDE it. As individuals we very quickly discover that we cannot resist it even if we want to.

It is at this very point in life, the discovery of masturbation, where half of humanity starts to walk swiftly away from God, to HIDE from God.

Of course it's a sin. And the fact that we all KNOW IT from the instant we discover it, having never been taught a thing about it, is probably the most important "teachable moment" in every person's life.

So... is menstruation a sin? Same exact situation going on there.

You would be correct. Communion would pointless if Christ were simply a penal substitute.

I've noticed in my 45 years of being Orthodox that people have weird ideas about us.

There is more to the worship of Orthodoxy than Sunday Morning Divine Liturgy, though many parishes don't do much more.

Anyway, please read the texts I pointed out.

Christ is risen!

You guys are saying different things!

I mean Penal Substitution in terms of Reformed theology. (Or maybe even Anselmian satisfaction.) Not Ransom Theory or other models that have some element of substitution going on.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Use of the word 'idol' to refer to Christian art is problematic. You might consider rephrasing.

I stated the historical problem that east and west split over the interpretation of idols...
and how they interpreted idols and imagery.........

I probably have a different view of idols than some, but that was not my intent to give my interpretation...however this idolatry issue was at the center of the church splits ...
.and I saw no carved images in the churches I visited in Russia and Armenia......but they do exist throughout europe......
After researching this ...the reason is because of the 2 differnet stances on idolatry in the early centuries of the church and the resulting split......

 

[Vicomte13]

I stated the historical problem that east and west split over the interpretation of idols...
and how they interpreted idols and imagery.........

I probably have a different view of idols than some, but that was not my intent to give my interpretation...however this idolatry issue was at the center of the church splits ...
.and I saw no carved images in the churches I visited in Russia and Armenia......but they do exist throughout europe......
After researching this ...the reason is because of the 2 differnet stances on idolatry in the early centuries of the church and the resulting split......

Statues are not idols. Neither are painted icons. Catholics and the Orthodox do not worship either. Catholics and the Orthodox do not believe that God is present in the object, do not worship the objects, and do not pray TO them. A statue and an icon are no more idols than a movie about Jesus is an idol. The word "Idol" is not synonymous with the word "statue". An idol is an object of WORSHIP.

 

[Traveling teacher]

I believe talking and praying to Jesus dead mother is an idol.....

I have been to the vatican and seen peters bronze toe rubbed off over the last 100s of years...
I believe thats an idol....

I also believe depicting Jesus as a long haired feminine looking hippie who talks like a girl is also an idol.....