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Limited vs unlimited atonement?

Dave-W

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All is the answer.
But perhaps you have understanding that I lack - you being, as you say, "Messianic".
Please enlighten me.
Thanks.
I would suggest a book - perhaps a bit dated now, but carries a LOT on how ancient mideastern covenants (and specifically the Suserain Covenant) worked, and how both the Mosaic and New covenants were patterned after the Suserain. The book is "Torah Rediscovered" by Ariel Berkowitz.

It then takes one to study the specific provisions of each - and the process of changing one Suserain covenant into the next to determine how our New covenant works. What gets set aside and what gets carried over.

The Mosaic covenant was an "Opt Out" type covenant meaning that one was born into it but could (thru certain acts of disobedience) get removed from it - "cut off."

The New Covenant OTOH is an "Opt In" type covenant that must be chosen by the individual who wishes to join it, with certain requisites needing to be done on one or both parties part.

To bring this back to topic, Opt In and limited atonement (atonement being a requisite for joining) are not compatible.
 
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Marvin Knox

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So Marvin, are you just going to ignore Jeremiah 18? I know, I know, it doesn't square with your theology.

Jeremiah 18
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Your silly little saying in blue at the end of your posts speaks volumns concerning your inability to understand Reformed doctrine.

Having said that - although I will not generally answer your posts - I will say something about this silly post in particular.

How on earth does Jeremiah 18 speak to limited vs. unlimited atonement?

Where, in God's name, did you get the idea that I do not believe or subscribe to what is said in Jeremiah 18?

Even though it is not the subject at hand - I assume that you are ignoring again what you have been told countless times by me and other Reformed believers.

How many times must you be told that God uses means to bring about what He has preestined to take place? Those means include the likes of preaching, repentance, answered prayer and any other examples we see in scripture and life.
 
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Late Apex

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Forget for a moment the word "wrath" and how it applies to any given person.

The fact is that you and I were "unsaved" in spite of the fact that Christ atoned for our sins some 2000 years ago. (Likely with eternal ramifications as well seeing as how He was "slain from the foundation of the world".)

Whatever "theory" of atonement you or I may subscribe to, the fact is that the atonement and the death of Christ in and of itself did not save us. One can be in a lost condition in spite of that death and atonement.

If that can be true (and is) for people until their death bed - there is no logical reason to teach that it could not be true for eternity.

People are saved through faith.
No faith no salvation (regardless of how that faith came to be).

Salvation = eternity in glory.

No salvation = eternity in Hell.

I have not seen evidence from the scriptures that Christ the atonemetn was only for the elect.

Unless you can show otherwise - Christ died for the sins of the world just as the scriptures clearly teach - not just for a few.

Even if we went with an unlimited atonement as you say, in practice or in reality it IS limited, n'est pas?
 
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Marvin Knox

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The New Covenant OTOH is an "Opt In" type covenant that must be chosen by the individual who wishes to join it, with certain requisites needing to be done on one or both parties part.
No problem there with me. That's the way I see the new covenant.
................. Opt In and limited atonement (atonement being a requisite for joining) are not compatible.
Not following what you are saying.

I do not believe in limited atonement. I have been argueing for unlimited atonement.

"Opting in" and unlimited atonement are compatible. I hold that position.

Salvation by "opting in" and not by the atonement alone is my view of being in covenant or saved. It is also the view of Arminians.

Interestingly, it was also the postion of John Calvin.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Even if we went with an unlimited atonement as you say, in practice or in reality it IS limited, n'est pas?
Granted.

Everyone who does not believe in universal salvation believes that the atonement is "limited" as to who will be saved by it. That includes Arminians, Calvinist, and you and me apparently.

If the limited scope of the atonement, vis a vis eternal salvation, was what is meant by "limited atonemen" - there would be no arguemnt among any of us who rightly stand against the teaching of universal salvaion.

But you and I both know (I assume) that that is not all that is being referred to with the 5 point Calvinist "limited atonement" doctrine.

It goes beyond what all of us agree concerning the scope of the atonement (that all won't be "saved" by the atonement in the end).

In so doing it becomes offensive to the majority of Christians outside of the Reformed camp and to those of us (such as me and John Calvin himself) within that camp.

There is no reason at all that so called limited atonement (as taught by many Calvinist) whould be included in the doctrines of grace.
 
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EmSw

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Your silly little saying in blue at the end of your posts speaks volumns concerning your inability to understand Reformed doctrine.

Yet, put it into the Westminster Confessions, and you swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

Having said that - although I will not generally answer your posts - I will say something about this silly post in particular.

How on earth does Jeremiah 18 speak to limited vs. unlimited atonement?

Do you even know what atonement is, Marvin? Is it just a word you like to throw around? Atonement is a purging, reconciliation, forgiveness, cleansing, pardon, disannullment, and appeasement. With that in mind, tell me how Jeremiah 18 isn't about atonement.

Where, in God's name, did you get the idea that I do not believe or subscribe to what is said in Jeremiah 18?

Even though it is not the subject at hand - I assume that you ignoring again what you have been told countless times by me and other Reformed believers.

Did you not read where man MUST do something? It's not by some Divine plan nor predestination. That is added by the Reformed. I believe you all call that eisegesis.

How many times must you be told that God uses means to bring about what He has preestined to take place? Those means include the likes of preaching, repentance, answered prayer and any other examples we see in scripture and life.

Again, some very familiar eisegesis on your part. Nothing says God predestines anything by any means. But don't let that stop you; have it your own way.

Now, I've shown you how God molds the clay, depending if the 'clay' obeys His voice and turns from evil, or disobeys His voice and does evil. You have don't seem to care about that, and desire to follow the Reformed's belief of God molding the clay.

And please, don't pull that eisegesis thing on us again.
 
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Late Apex

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Granted.

Everyone who does not believe in universal salvation believes that the atonement is "limited" as to who will be saved by it. That includes Arminians, Calvinist, and you and me apparently.

If the limited scope of the atonement, vis a vis eternal salvation, was what is meant by "limited atonemen" - there would be no arguemnt among any of us who rightly stand against the teaching of universal salvaion.

But you and I both know (I assume) that that is not all that is being referred to with the 5 point Calvinist "limited atonement" doctrine.

It goes beyond what all of us agree concerning the scope of the atonement (that all won't be "saved" by the atonement in the end).

In so doing it becomes offensive to the majority of Christians outside of the Reformed camp and to those of us (such as me and John Calvin himself) within that camp.

There is no reason at all that so called limited atonement (as taught by many Calvinist) whould be included in the doctrines of grace.


Maybe we have a problem with semantics. I would definitely agree that the value of Christs atonement would be sufficient to atone for any number of people and any number of sins. However, I look at the atonement not for what it COULD achieve or what it's value could purchase, but what it ACTUALLY bought.

If I pay $100,000,000.00 for only one used Honda civic, some will say that I was actually paying for 100,000 cars and not just one. However, just because I over paid does not mean I wanted more than just one car. Maybe I'm REALLY, REALLY, REALLY rich.
Can we even place a value on one drop of Christs blood? No, we can't. Whatever the value, it's not high enough and will always be an over payment.
 
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sdowney717

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I suppose with 'atonement' comes the idea of being forgiven of sin, does it not?
But the world's sins are not forgiven them, otherwise there would be a universal salvation springing from a universal atonement.

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 16 - New King James Version

Atonement always applies to the people of God.
 
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sdowney717

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I can only find 'atonement' in the KJV in one place in the NT
Paul is writing to believers, who have 'received the atonement', who were reconciled to God by the death of Christ. I can not read application of this to the world of unbelievers regarding these verses., who have not then 'received the atonement', which means their sins are not forgiven them.

Romans 5:10-11King James Version (KJV)
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Atonement always applies to the people of God.
The "people of God" in the OT were the Israelites. And atonement was "for the people", meaning the Israelites. Yet there were many unbelievers among them.

1 John 2:2 is clear enough about who Christ died for. And 2 Cor 5:14,15 and Heb 2:9. Very plain language.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Can we even place a value on one drop of Christs blood? No, we can't. Whatever the value, it's not high enough and will always be an over payment.
I believe that here is revealed an error in the way many (perhaps even most) people see the sacrifice of Christ.

It seems that most see His suffering as exactly atoning for “X number” of sins and no more and no less.

It’s as if only, say,10% of humanity ends up being saved by His suffering. Therefore, God supposedly figured out before the foundation of the world, that Christ was to suffer 3 hours of punching, slapping and whipping and 6 hours of hanging on a cross. That is, supposedly, the exact atonement required, for the exact number of sins which will be or have been committed by that 10% of humanity.

Let’s say that 7 billion people end up saved. Those 7 billion people commit exactly 1 trillion sins throughout history.

God looked at those sins and dolled out one split second of whipping, one split second of punching, and 2 split seconds of hanging on the cross for each sin.

If Marvin commits another sin today it would add (or has added) so many split seconds of whipping and so many split seconds of hanging to Christ's punishment to atone for that sin.

If all 100% of humanity were to have their sins atoned for – there would have to be 30 hours of whipping etc. and 60 hours of hanging to atone for their sins – because there would be, say, 10 trillion sins to pay for instead of 1 trillion.

Now many apparently feel (limited atonement types) that He could not have atoned for all sins because there was a limited amount of suffering in the atonement process.

Oh – they give lip service to the idea that “Christ’s suffering was of infinite value”. But that is not what they teach by saying that He only suffered for some sins. Frankly, according to their doctrine, Christ’s blood is worth exactly zero value to some because it was not shed for their sins. It is only of value to the elect – no matter how one tries to spin things.

I won’t continue on in this vein. I will just say that I (like you apparently from what you’ve siad) feel that His suffering was of infinite value even if it was for one split second and with one single drop of blood shed.

It is precisely for that reason that I see the idea that He can’t have suffered for all or else all would have to be saved to be so faulty in it’s logic.

The Bible presents the sacrifice (atonement) of Jesus Christ to be of infinite value and not just so much value per sin, as it were.

I’m sure I could have said this much better and I sure can’t make everyone think it through on their own as I have many times.

I just do not see the value of His suffering as being finite (only enough suffering and blood to cover X number of sins and no more). Rather I see it as infinite. An occurrence in time and space to be sure. But it is also a transaction between the Father and the Son from before time.

Further - many of us consider that Christ crying over the fact that many would not come to Him and be saved and His statement that He would gather them to Him as a hen gathers her chicks if they did, to a cruel and disingenous charade if their sins were not going to be atoned for because His coming sacrifcie was not going to be for them.

They were not, as one popular Reformed teachers has said, "even on His radar".

That is not an exceptional statement. It is the exact teachng concerning the meaning of limited atonement as commonly understood in Calvinistic cirlcels today.


Now - I’m quite sure that the old bromide about the atonement being of infinite value even though it was only accomplished for some will be spouted.

I, and millions of other Christians both Reformed and Arminian, just don’t see how that can be if it can only atone for X number of sins and no more.

We do not believe that the value of the suffering of Christ is limited. We believe it is unlimited and able to save all those who come to God through it.

Again if limited atonement only meant that God will only save so many people through the atonement - there would be no discussion about that concept. But something very offensive to many is what is being said in the doctrine of limited atonement. Namely that there is limited value in the atonement of the Son of God.

And a simple caveat by 5 pointers to the effect that they believe the sacrifice was of unlimited value just doesn't cut the mustard with anyone but the choir they are preaching to.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Now many apparently feel (limited atonement types) that He could not have atoned for all sins because there was a limited amount of suffering in the atonement process.
But isn't the more common view among LA types that Christ died only for the elect anyway? So that the amount of suffering only covered those chosen.

Oh – they give lip service to the idea that “Christ’s suffering was of infinite value”. But that is not what they teach by saying that He only suffered for some sins. Frankly, according to their doctrine, Christ’s blood is worth exactly zero value to some because it was not shed for their sins. It is only of value to the elect – no matter how one tries to spin things.
Exactly!
 
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EmSw

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I suppose with 'atonement' comes the idea of being forgiven of sin, does it not?
But the world's sins are not forgiven them, otherwise there would be a universal salvation springing from a universal atonement.

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 16 - New King James Version

Atonement always applies to the people of God.

Don't suppose; it's a reality. Israel's sins were not automatically forgiven; they had to do something. Read Leviticus 16, which you gave, and you will find out.

And today, it's not automatic. There must be repentance and turning to God. As Jesus said, 'except you repent, you will likewise perish'. This is atonement for the people of God.
 
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Marvin Knox

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But isn't the more common view among LA types that Christ died only for the elect anyway? So that the amount of suffering only covered those chosen........
Yes - that's right.

"They weren't even on His radar" according to them.

Which causes me to say (with all due respect) that the tears Christ cried over those who would not come to Him to be saved were mere "crocodile tears" - since they would not have been saved anyway had they come because His atonement was not to be for them.

As we know - you and I differ on some of the other points of TULIP. But,oin this particular point, we can agree.

There is no scriptural support for limited atonement in the way it is meant by most Calvinists.

Frankly - that's why scripture on this point has not been forthcoming. What scriptures have been offered here really apply to one or two of the other points and not to limited atonement.

Limited atonement stands or falls on one concept. That concept is that if Christ died for the sins of everyone then everyone must be saved.

Logic in general is not a good way to develope doctrine and faulty logic is no way at all.

It doesn't help matters here that we have someone like EmSw, who doesn't even believe in the sacrificial and substitutionary atonement of the Lord in he first place, snipping from the sidelines.

His/Her idea of salvation is Pelagian self atonement.:rolleyes:
 
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EmSw

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It doesn't help matters here that we have someone like EmSw, who doesn't even believe in the sacrificial and substitutionary atonement of the Lord in he first place, snipping from the sidelines.

His/Her idea of salvation is Pelagian self atonement.:rolleyes:

What is it that you don't get about repentance for the remission of sins? There is no need for a full/limited atonement argument. It's just natural men tossing leaves into the wind to see where they land.

It doesn't matter if it's a full/limited atonement; if you don't repent, you will perish. You can spend eternity in hell gnashing your teeth, if you don't repent.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Limited atonement stands or falls on one concept. That concept is that if Christ died for the sins of everyone then everyone must be saved.
I think such a view rests on the notion that it was Christ's death that saves, even though there are no Scriptures to support that.

In fact, we have Scripture that says the opposite:
Rom 4:25 - He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

It by the power of His resurrection that we are saved.

Logic in general is not a good way to develope doctrine and faulty logic is no way at all.
Faulty logic drives all false doctrines, since they can't be supported from Scripture.

However, logic perfectly proves eternal security, not that it matters to OSNAS.
Rom 6:23 eternal life is a gift of God.
Rom 11:29 the gifts of God are irrevocable.
Eternal life is irrevocable.

If A = B, and B = C, then A = C

It doesn't help matters here that we have someone like EmSw, who doesn't even believe in the sacrificial and substitutionary atonement of the Lord in he first place, snipping from the sidelines.
Worse, when specific Scriptures directly refute his claims, he merely rejects the writer. As such, he has vilified Paul, Peter and the book of Hebrews.

His NT must be quite thin, given all that he has rejected.

His/Her idea of salvation is Pelagian self atonement.:rolleyes:
My thought is his view is modern Phariseeism.
 
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FreeGrace2

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It doesn't matter if it's a full/limited atonement; if you don't repent, you will perish. You can spend eternity in hell gnashing your teeth, if you don't repent.
There's going to be a lot of hell dwellers gnashing their teeth because of all the law keeping they did during their life. To no avail.

Matt 721-23 is case in point.
 
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EmSw

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There's going to be a lot of hell dwellers gnashing their teeth because of all the law keeping they did during their life. To no avail.

Matt 721-23 is case in point.

Really? Care to show us where God said if you keep the law, you will end up in hell? Want to show us where anyone in the OT went to hell keeping the law? What a strange view you have, grandma. You do greatly err.

Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Proverbs 13:14
The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

To you and Paul, the law is not a fountain of life, but of death. If only Paul knew the OT and knew the truth, you wouldn't be following such a character.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Really? Care to show us where God said if you keep the law, you will end up in hell?
I'd love to. This is what Jesus said to those of your persuasion:
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. John 5

Want to show us where anyone in the OT went to hell keeping the law?
Since Jesus' words to the Pharisees in John 5:39,40 are clear enough about what the Scriptures taught in the OT, that's the proof.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Atonement always applies to the people of God.
Apparently not always.

As a fellow Reformed theologian I'm with you on many things but not this one. I'll go with what the scriptures teach on the subject.

"He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

A 5-pointer might be tempted to respond with the old dodge about whole world not meaning the reprobate alsobut the elect from "all over the world".

But then the elect from all over the world would be included in "ours" wouldn't it.

Adding the whole world to that would be redundant wouldn't it?

There is, after all, only one church in this world is there not?
 
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