Is God a liar?

[MJFlores]

All the scientific evidence points to an ancient earth. Furthermore, the fossil records support the slow change of species over time, such as dinosaurs to birds. *IF* these things are not true, it would follow that God deliberately created a world with false scientific data. Right? So then this begs the questions...

Did God lie?
And if God lied, why?

What do you believe?

I love dinosaurs as I love dino movies - extinct animals eating people, isn't that terrifying than terrorists? Velociraptors are the best.

The paleontologist would find a bunch of bones like this one:

And using these, with a little bit of imagination and a little bit of presumption and a dash of assumption would turn these bones into a masterpiece - wallah!

And that is science - even astronomy also use these methodologies. Then after a few decade, someone would say these critters have feathers after all.

As these dinosaurs are our present day chickens.

They would make movies out of it and dino museums would have more visitors and the young would study paleontology - everybody is happy. Even the internet would be teeming with memes and crossovers

I don't know what to think of them. Probably they are fossil discoveries of two animals - one died and the other was eating it then died also - both were buried for a couple of years and petrified. Then a paleontologist who is eager for "a grant" suddenly found a velociraptor. Yipeee!

They said these dead dinosaurs are the crude oil of today (aside from being inside a KFC bucket) that is why they called it "fossil fuel" https://www.sciencedaily.com/terms/fossil_fuel.htm. Then one of Saturn's moon, Titan, struck oil - I think the scientist would have a lot of explaining to do. Titan Has More Oil Than Earth

Science discoveries about dinosaurs? Who doesn't love Barney, huh?

Or better yet, think of dinosaurs as minions.

As long as science includes imagination, artist rendition, assumptions and presumptions on their findings, what is there to believe? Let us take the discovery of Trappist-1 as an example

Whatever they are, its like chewing gum - after you're done with it, you gotta spit it out.

 

[Speedwell]

What are you talking about? What creation myth? Do you know what is commandment to remember the Sabbath day? It's a commandment to remember God's creation, as described to us by God, even within the commandment itself.

God gave commandments, as written in Exodus 20, starting with words "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery."

Then He gives commandment to: "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

Because you type science with capital S, you just discard part of commandment you don't like?

What do you make of the change of voicing in the bolded portion?

 

[Meowzltov]

And that is science - even astronomy also use these methodologies. Then after a few decade, someone would say these critters have feathers after all.

We now say that dinosaurs had feathers, because we have found fossils of dinos with feathers. You see, when new evidence comes in, we change what we teach to incorporate the new evidence. In this case, what used to be merely theorized became fact.

 

[MJFlores]

We now say that dinosaurs had feathers, because we have found fossils of dinos with feathers. You see, when new evidence comes in, we change what we teach to incorporate the new evidence. In this case, what used to be merely theorized became fact.

That is one for the books!

 

[Radrook]

1. All the scientific evidence points to an ancient earth.


2. Furthermore, the fossil records support the slow change of species over time,

The first is a proven fact.
The second is debatable.

 

[JeremyTheAnglercan]

I don't know what to think of them. Probably they are fossil discoveries of two animals - one died and the other was eating it then died also - both were buried for a couple of years and petrified. Then a paleontologist who is eager for "a grant" suddenly found a velociraptor. Yipeee!
View attachment 193172

I think you're ignoring the fact that whatever animals caused those fossils are a lot older than 6000 years.

 

[JeremyTheAnglercan]

And, a young earth is only valid if the assumption that the entire Bible must be taken literally is true, and it definitely isn't. Unless you actually pluck out your eyes to stop yourself from sinning you cannot in good conscience say you hold the entire Bible to be literal.

This then leads us to looking at the Bible logically. Logic says that Jesus meant that metaphorically because Jesus doesn't expand on His command by saying it is a metaphor, but it wouldn't make sense for every teenage boy to be permanently blinded for life.

EDIT: Therefore we must look at Genesis logically and say it was written to the best of the author's understanding of the natural world, and incorporated the stories passed down to him/her (but probably him. Stoopid patriarchy), because science tells us the earth is ancient. And it this same science that allows us to see using glasses, communicate with each other over the internet, and develop lifesaving medicine.

 

[JacksBratt]

I think you're ignoring the fact that whatever animals caused those fossils are a lot older than 6000 years.

I once drew a "level" line around my basement. This was to install a drop ceiling and I needed the perimeter "J" mold to be perfectly level.

Using my 6 inch level, I was off by 4" by the time I completed the perimeter. Using a 2 foot level I was off by an inch. Using a laser level, I was bang on.

Point is...........................man's method for measuring age of ancient items............is using a 1 inch level...

We have no standards to calibrate the measurement. We have nothing that is certifiable to be 1million years old to hold the instrumentation to as a standard.

Man's methods are foolish in the eyes of God. In the end all will be disclosed and the ones called wise will be shown to be foolish.

Trust in the word of God..........not the arrogance of man.

 

[BobRyan]

I think you're ignoring the fact that whatever animals caused those fossils are a lot older than 6000 years.

Why do you assume that??

 

[BobRyan]

And, a young earth is only valid if the assumption that the entire Bible must be taken literally is true,

That is not true at all.

The 7 day creation week is established in legal code Exodus 20:11.

But there are many parables and symbols in the Bible -- just not in legal code or historic accounts.

The false dilemma that says "either anything you wish is symbolic or there are not symbols in the text at all" never worked for any form of literature known to mankind. And not surprisingly it does not work for the text of scripture either.

I think we all knew that much.

EDIT: Therefore we must look at Genesis logically and say it was written to the best of the author's understanding of the natural world, and incorporated the stories passed down to him/her (but probably him. Stoopid patriarchy), because science tells us the earth is ancient. And it this same science that allows us to see using glasses, communicate with each other over the internet, and develop lifesaving medicine.

That does not make sense since you are then arguing two key points not accepted by most Christians.
1. The author of the Bible is not God - but rather pre-science-age men making stuff up as best they could.
2. Those men in part-1 above could not tell the difference between 1 literal week and 100 years or 1000 years or 1 million years. Which means no number of years in all the Bible is trustworthy,,, let alone a simple number of days like "7" or "evening and morning were the Second day"

 

[Papias]

That does not make sense since you are then arguing two key points not accepted by most Christians.
1. The author of the Bible is not God - but rather pre-science-age men making stuff up as best they could.

He's not arguing that at all. Of course the author of this or that Bible is God. God reaches out to us at our level. If he's talking to pre-science age people and wants them to accept the message and understand it, then he's not going to start talking about protons, galactic redshifts, natural selection, and biodiversity. He'll give a simple story that emphasizes the main point - that God is the creator.

Jesus shows this well. When he teaches, he uses a parable that those in the local society can understand and relate to. He talks about the good samaritan walking between towns, not about the good Frenchman driving his car to a movie theater and getting his cell phone hacked. So it's no surprise that when Jesus tells Genesis 1, he uses symbolic speech similar to other middle eastern creation stories that the hearers would be familiar with.

2. Those men in part-1 above could not tell the difference between 1 literal week and 100 years or 1000 years or 1 million years. Which means no number of years in all the Bible is trustworthy,,, let alone a simple number of days like "7" or "evening and morning were the Second day"

Sure they could have - but it would have sounded bizarre and not what they were familiar with. They were familiar with weeks of 7 days, with the earth looking like a flat world under a hard dome, with plants not being living things and so on. So of course God reaches to them on their level, as described above - and tells them a symbolic story they can understand. It's a mighty God who can do that while still clearly conveying the main point - which is that He is the one doing the creating.

In Christ-

Papias

 

[JeremyTheAnglercan]

Why do you assume that??

Because all you're arguing about is the idea that paleontology is not 100% accurate. And paleontologists will agree with you there. They are finding new fossils that give us a clearer picture all the time. But those bones are definitely older than 6000 years old.

 

[JeremyTheAnglercan]

That is not true at all.

The 7 day creation week is established in legal code Exodus 20:11.

But there are many parables and symbols in the Bible -- just not in legal code or historic accounts.

The false dilemma that says "either anything you wish is symbolic or there are not symbols in the text at all" never worked for any form of literature known to mankind. And not surprisingly it does not work for the text of scripture either.

I think we all knew that much.



That does not make sense since you are then arguing two key points not accepted by most Christians.
1. The author of the Bible is not God - but rather pre-science-age men making stuff up as best they could.
2. Those men in part-1 above could not tell the difference between 1 literal week and 100 years or 1000 years or 1 million years. Which means no number of years in all the Bible is trustworthy,,, let alone a simple number of days like "7" or "evening and morning were the Second day"

EDITS IN BOLD.
Because Jesus does not say that He's being metaphorical when He says pluck out our eyes, how do you know He's being metaphorical? You're using human reason to differentiate between legal code/historic accounts and parables. Nowhere does God give us a breakdown. So why do you suddenly cut human reasoning off when it comes to the creation account?

And as per your 2 key points:
1. Most Christians outside of the US (including South Africa where I live) believe scripture is God-breathed, but not a direct transcription of His words. If it was, God would be erroneous. Matthew 27:5-9 tell us the Field of Blood was called that because after Judas died it was bought by the priests with the blood money given to Judas. Acts 1:18-19 tells us Judas himself bought the field and killed himself there.
2. Genesis is attributed to Moses. It probably wasn't written by him, but it definitely wasn't written down as and when it happened. The creation story as mentioned in Genesis is shared by most of the monotheistic Middle Eastern religions, some of which predate Judaism. It's kinda why people used to think thunder was the gods' wrath: "pre-science-age men making stuff up as best they could."

 

[JacksBratt]

He's not arguing that at all. Of course the author of this or that Bible is God. God reaches out to us at our level. If he's talking to pre-science age people and wants them to accept the message and understand it, then he's not going to start talking about protons, galactic redshifts, natural selection, and biodiversity. He'll give a simple story that emphasizes the main point - that God is the creator.

Jesus shows this well. When he teaches, he uses a parable that those in the local society can understand and relate to. He talks about the good samaritan walking between towns, not about the good Frenchman driving his car to a movie theater and getting his cell phone hacked. So it's no surprise that when Jesus tells Genesis 1, he uses symbolic speech similar to other middle eastern creation stories that the hearers would be familiar with.



Sure they could have - but it would have sounded bizarre and not what they were familiar with. They were familiar with weeks of 7 days, with the earth looking like a flat world under a hard dome, with plants not being living things and so on. So of course God reaches to them on their level, as described above - and tells them a symbolic story they can understand. It's a mighty God who can do that while still clearly conveying the main point - which is that He is the one doing the creating.

In Christ-

Papias

When God gave us the Bible, do you think that He was unaware of the technology and knowledge that was to come? Of course not. We do not need to know about protons and neutrons in order to understand what the Bible is presenting.

All we need to know is that it is the word of God. Everything pertinent to our understanding our past and future relationship with God and everything we need to know about God, is right there in black and white.

Anything that contradicts these things is based on knowledge built on a sand dune.

How arrogant for mankind to dismiss the words of the bible, written so that any 10 year old can understand the basic concepts inside of it, and hold tight to the concepts of man, a creation of the One who gave us the Bible in the first place.

All will be disclosed and mankind will be shown to be, not only foolish for it's beliefs held above God's word, but disgraceful for the knowledge it withheld from others, some presented as fact when not known to be so and other things held as solid fact when blatantly obvious that it was false.

 

[Humble Servant of Christ]

I believe in the big bang and an old earth. I also believe in a literal interpretation of the bible. I believe God showed Moses creation in the best way Moses could understand it. Could Moses understand nuclear science? No. I also believe that God -creating the universe in the big bang - proves his power and intelligence. Only God -in a single instant - could create all matter, space and time along with the natural laws that would result in the universe we see today (billions of years later)! Amazing to think about! God created nature and the laws of physics so we could see his hand in the creation of everything billions of years ago! Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands"

 

[Papias]

When God gave us the Bible, do you think that He was unaware of the technology and knowledge that was to come? Of course not. We do not need to know about protons and neutrons in order to understand what the Bible is presenting.

I never said we did. I only pointed out Jesus speaks in parables and that it's obvious that everything in the Bibles is not intended to be interpreted literally.

How arrogant for mankind to dismiss the words of the bible, written so that any 10 year old can understand the basic concepts inside of it, and hold tight to the concepts of man, a creation of the One who gave us the Bible in the first place.

You are asserting that any interpretation other than your literal one is "dismissing the words of the bible". It's not. Our non-literal interpretation is not "dismissing" God's word any more than your literal interpretation is.

Plus, you yourself know that a literal interpretation is often wrong - even in Genesis. You recognize, I hope, that the serpent is a symbol for Satan, that Satan never literally bit Jesus' foot (Gen 3:15), and that the world isn't flat (dozens of verses, including Genesis 1).

I hope you realize that there are many, many other places as well that are clearly not intended to be interpreted by your literal interpretation.

For instance, there are tons of verses that are clearly non-literal, such as exodus 19:4, which says that God flew the Jews out of Egypt using eagle wings. But God, of course, didn't fly the Jews out on literal eagle wings - they walked.

There are also plenty of verses that are false if interpreted literally:

In 1 Cr 22:14, the amount of gold on hand to build the temple is 4,000 tons ( 100,000 talents). That's more gold than existed in the whole world at that time. Even today, after 100 years of modern industrial gold mining, only the united states government has more gold than that.

Similarly, 1cr 21:5 lists King David's army as 1.5 million men. With women, children, and elderly, that gives a population of at least 6 million, and any country can only have a small fraction of men in the army (since general workers are needed), so the Israel/Judah population must have been over 20 million. But that's absurd - the whole world population then was only 50 to 100 million, with nearly all of them in India, China, and Africa. Another way to see how absurd an army of 1.5 million is, is to notice that this is more than today's whole United States military has only 1.2 million men- with a US population of 300 million people.

As mentioned earlier, in the Bibles, diseases are caused by demons (or by the divine decree of God himself) - today we know that it's not demons, but microbes. The Bibles never, ever, describe even one disease as being caused by germs.

Dt 32 describes eagles as carrying their young on their backs - but eagles don't do this.

The flood as literal history is impossible in too many ways to list, in addition to the fact that the flood, if real, would leave clear evidence, which doesn't exist - geologists are practically unanimous on this - including geologists who are Christians.

That's just a start - Going through all of them would take ages, and the Bibles are full of sections that, if read as literal truth, contradict science. I don't see these as "God lying to us", but rather as "God speaking in ways people will understand.".

How arrogant of mankind to insist on a literal interpretation, when the bibles are clearly much more than that.

in Christ-

Papias

 

[Speedwell]

How arrogant for mankind to dismiss the words of the bible, written so that any 10 year old can understand the basic concepts inside of it, and hold tight to the concepts of man, a creation of the One who gave us the Bible in the first place.

Creationist interpretation goes way beyond basic concepts. It forces conclusions which have no connection to basic concepts. For example, when creationists insist that the Fountains of the Deep erupted with such force during the Flood as to blast chunks of the Earth into space to form the Asteroid Belt--because "it says so in the Bible."

 

[Robert Richborough]

One big thing we must know is that hebrew word YOM - means cycle, not specifically day, so it could be cycles of millenia, when you adjust for that Genesis is mostly in the right order, the only issue is the sun, but if we explain it as being seen as a vision when genesis was written, if you watching the earth being created, the sun wouldn't appear like the sun until god had created the atmoshpere.

 

[JacksBratt]

I believe in the big bang and an old earth. I also believe in a literal interpretation of the bible. I believe God showed Moses creation in the best way Moses could understand it. Could Moses understand nuclear science? No. I also believe that God -creating the universe in the big bang - proves his power and intelligence. Only God -in a single instant - could create all matter, space and time along with the natural laws that would result in the universe we see today (billions of years later)! Amazing to think about! God created nature and the laws of physics so we could see his hand in the creation of everything billions of years ago! Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands"

Well, if there ever was a "big bang" it was what would have been heard when God said "let there be...."
All of this from nothing, could not be anything but from God.
As for talking to Moses.... I have absolutely no reason to believe that Moses was not intelligent enough to understand exactly what God was saying. Don't forget, Moses was taught by the Egyptian elite and he was very intelligent and well educated. If you think that we are more intelligent now, than they were, think again. Just look at the mega structures that they assembled.... we cannot do it today.

So, lets give up on any "they were nomadic tent makers" or they were "dumb shepherds"

There is a huge difference between those "uneducated while intelligent" and those who are "educated while arrogant and ignorant".

Moses was intelligent and educated.

Also, with God, there is no reason for billions of years. The only thing that demands this is the anti-God concept of evolution.

 

[Speedwell]

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