Paul's presents Genesis as literal and not parable.

[KWCrazy]

This whole idea of commandment three, where it says "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day;" I guess we should eliminate that since all that stuff about it being carved by the finger of God has to be false as well.
We can probably get rid of the fourth commandment as well, since we know that diet, exercise and avoiding illness are the keys to long life, not honoring your parents. While we're at it, we can get rid of number nine also since lust is a purely biological reaction over which we have no control.

So that leaves us seven commandments. If we keep four of them, that's a majority so that should work just fine. Can we all agree? I mean... God created man in His image, the least we can do is to return the favor.

 

[Archivist]

It matters since ONLY one man was made with an intelligence like God's, Gen 3:22 which means that ONLY Humans have the free choice to believe God or Not. It had to come through Adam since the sons of God (prehistoric people) were not Humans until the married and produced offspring with a descendant of Adam. Gen 6:4 In this manner, God has produced over 7 Billion Humans who can freely choose Heaven or Hell since they have INHERITED the superior intelligence of Adam. God Bless you

So why does it matter whether a talking snake convinced a woman to eat a piece of fruit or sin entered the world in some other way.

 

[Archivist]

This whole idea of commandment three, where it says "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day;" I guess we should eliminate that since all that stuff about it being carved by the finger of God has to be false as well.
We can probably get rid of the fourth commandment as well, since we know that diet, exercise and avoiding illness are the keys to long life, not honoring your parents. While we're at it, we can get rid of number nine also since lust is a purely biological reaction over which we have no control.

So that leaves us seven commandments. If we keep four of them, that's a majority so that should work just fine. Can we all agree? I mean... God created man in His image, the least we can do is to return the favor.

So wrong.

 

[Speedwell]

This whole idea of commandment three, where it says "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day;" I guess we should eliminate that since all that stuff about it being carved by the finger of God has to be false as well.
We can probably get rid of the fourth commandment as well, since we know that diet, exercise and avoiding illness are the keys to long life, not honoring your parents. While we're at it, we can get rid of number nine also since lust is a purely biological reaction over which we have no control.

So that leaves us seven commandments. If we keep four of them, that's a majority so that should work just fine. Can we all agree? I mean... God created man in His image, the least we can do is to return the favor.

Well, if you really think all of that follows from taking the Garden story as something other than 100% accurate literal history, then you had better not do it.

 

[rjs330]

Which is also in the third person.

Hold up here. I get that what was written is from a secondary person. Someone is saying "and God spoke these words.". But that does not make what God spoke irrelevant or untrue or even not real. People quoted Jesus all the time and we don't claim that what Jesus said was not what he said. We trust that's what he said.

The language here is God speaking. Take a look at what God says.
I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.You must have no other gods before me.Do not make an idol for yourself—no form whatsoever—of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.Do not bow down to them or worship them, because I, the Lord your God, am a passionate God. I punish children for their parents’ sins even to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me.But I am loyal and gracious to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.Do not use the Lord your God’s name as if it were of no significance; the Lord won’t forgive anyone who uses his name that way.Remember the Sabbath day and treat it as holy.Six days you may work and do all your tasks,but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. Do not do any work on it—not you, your sons or daughters, your male or female servants, your animals, or the immigrant who is living with you.Because the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and everything that is in them in six days, but rested on the seventh day. That is why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.Honor your father and your mother so that your life will be long on the fertile land that the Lord your God is giving you. - Exodus 20:2-12 Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20:2-12 - Common English Bible

I am the Lord your God. Refers to himself. Now look at other places where he uses or talks in a third person. Do not use the Lord's name in vain. He does not say"do not use my name in vain.". If we were to accept the thought that third person means God isn't speaking then this verse is meaningless and probably the whole command was made up by the writer and not given by God. The same thing goes for the Sabbath Day command. It too would have to have been made up by the writer and not given by God. Same goes for honoring your mother and father.

See the logical conclusion is that if there is a change in person then the writer is speaking and not God which invalidates many of the commands.

Does God ever speak that way other than here? Is this so unusual for God to speak that way? No it is not. There are other places is scripture where God uses third person to speak of himself. In fact Jesus does the same. Remember Jesus said "the son of man has no where to lay his head"? He didn't say "I have no where to lay my head.". But we all accept it as a quote from him. Look up other passages where God or Jesus speaks in third person.

Here is just one.

The Lord said to him, “Go down, and bring Aaron back up with you. But the priests and the people must not break through and come up to the Lord. Otherwise, the Lord will break loose against them.” - Exodus 19:24 Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 19:24 - Common English Bible

Note he dies not say and I will break loose against them. He talks about himself in third person.

This whole idea is just another excuse for those who do not want to take the bible for what it says and accept that God created just as he claimed.

 

[Archivist]

Paul presented Genesis as literal history and not allegory. Of course he did. Paul had been taught that. He wouldn't have understood it any other way. That doesn't make the Genesis creation accounts literal history.

What we are being told on this thread is that the OP believes the Genesis creation accounts to be literal history, therefore everyone else must believe the same. Yet we all interprete scripture. Some in here, for sample, while believing the Genesis account to be literal deny the literal meaning of the words they Jesus spoke at the Last Super, this is my Body, this is my Blood. They are, of course, entitled to their own interpretation; I choose to take the words of our Lord as literal.

The fact is that we all interpreted scripture.

 

[Speedwell]

Hold up here. I get that what was written is from a secondary person. Someone is saying "and God spoke these words.". But that does not make what God spoke irrelevant or untrue or even not real. People quoted Jesus all the time and we don't claim that what Jesus said was not what he said. We trust that's what he said.

The language here is God speaking. Take a look at what God says.
I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.You must have no other gods before me.Do not make an idol for yourself—no form whatsoever—of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.Do not bow down to them or worship them, because I, the Lord your God, am a passionate God. I punish children for their parents’ sins even to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me.But I am loyal and gracious to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.Do not use the Lord your God’s name as if it were of no significance; the Lord won’t forgive anyone who uses his name that way.Remember the Sabbath day and treat it as holy.Six days you may work and do all your tasks,but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. Do not do any work on it—not you, your sons or daughters, your male or female servants, your animals, or the immigrant who is living with you.Because the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and everything that is in them in six days, but rested on the seventh day. That is why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.Honor your father and your mother so that your life will be long on the fertile land that the Lord your God is giving you. - Exodus 20:2-12 Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20:2-12 - Common English Bible

I am the Lord your God. Refers to himself. Now look at other places where he uses or talks in a third person. Do not use the Lord's name in vain. He does not say"do not use my name in vain.". If we were to accept the thought that third person means God isn't speaking then this verse is meaningless and probably the whole command was made up by the writer and not given by God. The same thing goes for the Sabbath Day command. It too would have to have been made up by the writer and not given by God. Same goes for honoring your mother and father.

See the logical conclusion is that if there is a change in person then the writer is speaking and not God which invalidates many of the commands.

Does God ever speak that way other than here? Is this so unusual for God to speak that way? No it is not. There are other places is scripture where God uses third person to speak of himself. In fact Jesus does the same. Remember Jesus said "the son of man has no where to lay his head"? He didn't say "I have no where to lay my head.". But we all accept it as a quote from him. Look up other passages where God or Jesus speaks in third person.

Here is just one.

The Lord said to him, “Go down, and bring Aaron back up with you. But the priests and the people must not break through and come up to the Lord. Otherwise, the Lord will break loose against them.” - Exodus 19:24 Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 19:24 - Common English Bible

Note he dies not say and I will break loose against them. He talks about himself in third person.

This whole idea is just another excuse for those who do not want to take the bible for what it says and accept that God created just as he claimed.

LOL! No, it was just a question--one which neither of us can answer because we don't know enough about ancient Hebrew literary practices. The reactions I get from creationists are interesting, however. The thing is, don't you believe that every word in the Bible was written word-for-word by Jesus of Nazareth himself, whoever the ostensible author was? It shouldn't matter to doctrine that Ex 20:11 was put in by the transcriber. BTW, Jesus quotes don't count here; they were all written in Greek, not Hebrew and it is possible that the literary conventions were different.

 

[Aman777]

This whole idea of commandment three, where it says "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day;" I guess we should eliminate that since all that stuff about it being carved by the finger of God has to be false as well.
We can probably get rid of the fourth commandment as well, since we know that diet, exercise and avoiding illness are the keys to long life, not honoring your parents. While we're at it, we can get rid of number nine also since lust is a purely biological reaction over which we have no control.

So that leaves us seven commandments. If we keep four of them, that's a majority so that should work just fine. Can we all agree? I mean... God created man in His image, the least we can do is to return the favor.

You misunderstand God's commandments. In order to inherit Heaven, you MUST be perfect even as God is perfect. Mat 5:48 it's not a matter of how many commandments you keep but that you keep them ALL perfectly.

 

[Aman777]

So why does it matter whether a talking snake convinced a woman to eat a piece of fruit or sin entered the world in some other way.

There are many snakes in the world. One is them is named Satan and he is the "talking snake" you speak of.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Satan knew that ONLY Eve could tempt Adam to disobey God's command, and bring death upon all men. Rom 5:12

 

[Archivist]

There are many snakes in the world. One is them is named Satan and he is the "talking snake" you speak of.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Satan knew that ONLY Eve could tempt Adam to disobey God's command, and bring death upon all men. Rom 5:12

And if you want to believe in a literal reading of the Genesis creation accounts you can do that.

 

[rjs330]

LOL! No, it was just a question--one which neither of us can answer because we don't know enough about ancient Hebrew literary practices. The reactions I get from creationists are interesting, however. The thing is, don't you believe that every word in the Bible was written word-for-word by Jesus of Nazareth himself, whoever the ostensible author was? It shouldn't matter to doctrine that Ex 20:11 was put in by the transcriber. BTW, Jesus quotes don't count here; they were all written in Greek, not Hebrew and it is possible that the literary conventions were different.

But it does matter to doctrine. Those that state Genesis is no literal are the ones that have to make the claim of Exidus not being God talking. Because if it is God talking it smashes their doctrine. So they can just wipe it away by saying God didn't say that and we cannot rely on the writer to be correct. It's that same old song and dance. We can't rely on scripture to be accurate because it was written by people. Hmmm... Seems like I've heard that very same claim by athiests. And still no one can tell me why they don't trust scripture to be accurate. It's only accurate where they want it to be accurate. Jesus quotes do count as he was God was he not? He was also a Hebrew and spoke in Hebrew culture. The fact his words were quotes in Greek has nothing to do with how he said it. Whether in Hebrew or Greek he said the Son of Man referring to himself in third person and no matter whether it was Hebrew or Greek it is still third person. So being God and Hebrew the way he says things is relevant. There is evidence in the OT that God speaks in third person therefore it is more irrelevant to claim that Exodus quote is not God than it it to claim it is.

 

[rjs330]

Paul presented Genesis as literal history and not allegory. Of course he did. Paul had been taught that. He wouldn't have understood it any other way. That doesn't make the Genesis creation accounts literal history.

What we are being told on this thread is that the OP believes the Genesis creation accounts to be literal history, therefore everyone else must believe the same. Yet we all interprete scripture. Some in here, for sample, while believing the Genesis account to be literal deny the literal meaning of the words they Jesus spoke at the Last Super, this is my Body, this is my Blood. They are, of course, entitled to their own interpretation; I choose to take the words of our Lord as literal.

The fact is that we all interpreted scripture.

Why do you choose to take the Lord's words as literal? And why do you not choose to take Genesis as literal? What is your basis for making that decision? And why do you not choose to trust Paul's understanding?

 

[Aman777]

And if you want to believe in a literal reading of the Genesis creation accounts you can do that.

Amen since Satan IS a literal snake. The Lord rebuke him. Jde 1:9

Soon, every person on Earth, including atheists, scientists and historians, will see God's Truth, since the discoveries of Science and History in the last days will AGREE with Genesis One. All flesh will learn of God's Truth.

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon ALL flesh:

In July 2016 Scientists announced that they had discovered that ALL life came from WATER.
Meet Luca, the Ancestor of All Living Things - The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/26/science/last-universal-ancestor.html

God told us the SAME in Genesis One more than 3k years ago:

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly

That is evidence of things not seen and only God could have known and authored this Truth more than 3k years ago. It's empirical (testable) proof of God.

 

[Speedwell]

But it does matter to doctrine. Those that state Genesis is no literal are the ones that have to make the claim of Exidus not being God talking. Because if it is God talking it smashes their doctrine. So they can just wipe it away by saying God didn't say that and we cannot rely on the writer to be correct. It's that same old song and dance. We can't rely on scripture to be accurate because it was written by people. Hmmm... Seems like I've heard that very same claim by athiests. And still no one can tell me why they don't trust scripture to be accurate. It's only accurate where they want it to be accurate. Jesus quotes do count as he was God was he not? He was also a Hebrew and spoke in Hebrew culture. The fact his words were quotes in Greek has nothing to do with how he said it. Whether in Hebrew or Greek he said the Son of Man referring to himself in third person and no matter whether it was Hebrew or Greek it is still third person. So being God and Hebrew the way he says things is relevant. There is evidence in the OT that God speaks in third person therefore it is more irrelevant to claim that Exodus quote is not God than it it to claim it is.

Indeed. Keep in mind that it is the argument that I am talking about, not whether creation took place in six days. The mere possibility that Ex 20:11 is a parenthetical insertion by the transcriber is enough to spoil the argument--although not the six day creation. And clearly you don't have any real literary or linguistic support for your position or you wouldn't be hand-waving. It's just more preaching to the choir. The "Ex 20:11" argument, the "Dead Guy," the "Geneology," the "Calling Christ a liar," all nothing but weak apologetics.

You want to teach this in the public schools you are going to have to do much better. I have seen nothing from any creationist that a smart high school class wouldn't make mincemeat of. You will be facing catechized Catholic kids who know their doctrine, Jewish kids who can actually read biblical Hebrew and AP biology students who will make you look like fools. Good luck.

 

[Speedwell]

Why do you choose to take the Lord's words as literal? And why do you not choose to take Genesis as literal? What is your basis for making that decision? And why do you not choose to trust Paul's understanding?

The big reason is, of course, that the Garden story is manifestly a different genre than the Gospels, written at a different time in a different language by a different author with a different literary agenda. I don't agree that we know fully what Paul's understanding of the Garden story was, although it seems reasonable to suppose that he believed it to be historical in some sense. But that is still a long way from 100% accurate literal history.

 

[Archivist]

Why do you choose to take the Lord's words as literal?

Because that is how I read them. "This is my body" is pretty clear to me. Why would you not take them literally?

And why do you not choose to take Genesis as literal?

Because I read it as an allegory.

What is your basis for making that decision?

I have explained that numerous times.

And why do you not choose to trust Paul's understanding?

Because Paul was a man of his time.

 

[Archivist]

Amen since Satan IS a literal snake. The Lord rebuke him. Jde 1:9

Soon, every person on Earth, including atheists, scientists and historians, will see God's Truth, since the discoveries of Science and History in the last days will AGREE with Genesis One. All flesh will learn of God's Truth.

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon ALL flesh:

In July 2016 Scientists announced that they had discovered that ALL life came from WATER.
Meet Luca, the Ancestor of All Living Things - The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/26/science/last-universal-ancestor.html

God told us the SAME in Genesis One more than 3k years ago:

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly

That is evidence of things not seen and only God could have known and authored this Truth more than 3k years ago. It's empirical (testable) proof of God.

And you are entitled to your interpretation of scripture.

 

[Aman777]

And you are entitled to your interpretation of scripture.

Thanks but that is only the beginning. When you realize what I show, you will know that God's Truth in Genesis AGREES in every way with every discovery of Science and History. I didn't make it up but I can support my views with Genesis. I have found something rare and wonderful since it's proof of the literal God. His name is Jesus. God Bless you

 

[KWCrazy]

You misunderstand God's commandments. In order to inherit Heaven, you MUST be perfect even as God is perfect. Mat 5:48 it's not a matter of how many commandments you keep but that you keep them ALL perfectly.

Except that man will never be perfect. Man may be forgiven his imperfections. If only the perfect people made it to Heaven none would ever go. Moses and David were murderers. Peter denied Christ.

 

[Speedwell]

Except that man will never be perfect. Man may be forgiven his imperfections. If only the perfect people made it to Heaven none would ever go. Moses and David were murderers. Peter denied Christ.

I agree. We keep the commandments as well as we can, but it is Christ who makes us perfect.