Sabbath & Holy Days NECESSARY for salvation.

[Bob S]

It is the discussion between IamHebrew and I which you interjected your thoughts on the definition of grace.

I believe he asked what the definition of grace is and the answer given was unmerited favor. That was not good enough for Ima. My interjection was only to tell my opinion about the meaning of Grace.

 

[bugkiller]

Shalom bugkiller, you really don't know much about me yet do you? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Know all I need to know about you.

bugkiller

 

[1stcenturylady]

Shalom 1stcenturylady, I already KNOW exactly what you believe. You have NEVER heard what I believe. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Then I'm sorry if I misread you. I thought you DID tell me what you believe. What do you think I believe. I'm not a cookie cutter theologian, so don't think it is what anyone else has said.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I believe he asked what the definition of grace is and the answer given was unmerited favor. That was not good enough for Ima. My interjection was only to tell my opinion about the meaning of Grace.

I thought your answer was unmerited favor. Was I wrong? If, yes, then what is grace to you?

 

[ImAHebrew]

Shalom,

In Romans 7:21-25, Paul made a statement in which he summarized what said previously in which he said he delighted in obeying God's Law that he served with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive that he served with his flesh. He described God's Law as not being sin, but revealing what sin is (7:7), as holy, righteous, and good (7:12), and as being the good that he wanted to do (7:13-20), but contrasted that with the law of sin that stirred up sin to bear fruit unto death (7:5), that held him captive (7:6), that gave sin its power (7:8), and that caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do. So it is the law of sin that he described as sin having dominion over him, which we are not under when we are under grace (6:14), it is also the law of sin that came about to increase tresspassess (5:20), and God's grace increased by teaching us to obey God's Law and to reject the influence of the law of sin. In regard to Galatians 2:17, it does appear to me to be saying that anyone who desires justification had to be a sinner, but rather he was making a condition "if" statement.

Shalom Soyeong, I like how you think. Let me clear up several things. Our sin/transgression is what Sacrificed Yeshua, and we did this, "not knowing what we were doing," (Luke 23:34) with the HELP of the hands of wicked men (Acts 2:23). The Law REQUIRES that for one to be JUSTIFIED, one must SACRIFICE when they have sinned in ignorance (Leviticus 4:27-29). So, when one does PERFORM this sacrifice, it becomes RIGHTEOUSNESS for them. Well, the Righteousness that comes from FAITH, is by BELIEVING the Yeshua is YOUR Sacrifice, and that you did SACRIFICE Him by Sinning, therefore, anyone who desires this JUSTIFICATION in Messiah, HAD to be a sinner (Galatians 2:17), so that when sin is increased, this Free Gift of Righteousness is increased all the more (Romans 5:20). Does this explanation of Grace make any sense to you? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Shalom Soyeong, I like how you think. Let me clear up several things. Our sin/transgression is what Sacrificed Yeshua, and we did this, "not knowing what we were doing," (Luke 23:34) with the HELP of the hands of wicked men (Acts 2:23). The Law REQUIRES that for one to be JUSTIFIED, one must SACRIFICE when they have sinned in ignorance (Leviticus 4:27-29). So, when one does PERFORM this sacrifice, it becomes RIGHTEOUSNESS for them. Well, the Righteousness that comes from FAITH, is by BELIEVING the Yeshua is YOUR Sacrifice, and that you did SACRIFICE Him by Sinning, therefore, anyone who desires this JUSTIFICATION in Messiah, HAD to be a sinner (Galatians 2:17), so that when sin is increased, this Free Gift of Righteousness is increased all the more (Romans 5:20). Does this explanation of Grace make any sense to you? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

And Paul said to that interpretation - "GOD FORBID!!!"

What you are describing as grace is the sin of the Nicolaitans in the letters to the church of Ephesus and Pergamos in Revelation 2.

 

[Bob S]

Shalom Bob S, who said I was a "messianic?" You have NO IDEA who I Am. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Right, I have no idea. You could be playing games with us or you could be a Messianic. Jews wouldn't be quoting Paul, most Christians would use the term "Jesus". Messianics and JWs won't use the term Jesus or God. Well, I guess it boils down to who cares what you are or what your are not. Knowing what you are will not change my world.

 

[ImAHebrew]

And Paul said to that interpretation - "GOD FORBID!!!"

What you are describing as grace is the sin of the Nicolaitans in the letters to the church of Ephesus and Pergamos in Revelation 2.

Shalom 1stcenturylady, did YOU sacrifice Messiah? Is He YOUR sacrifice? If He is, HOW did you place Him upon the Cross? Do you not realize that those who KNEW that they had ALREADY placed Him upon the Cross BY SINNING, that IF they FELL back into SIN, they were RE-Crucifying Him afresh? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Shalom 1stcenturylady, did YOU sacrifice Messiah? Is He YOUR sacrifice? If He is, HOW did you place Him upon the Cross? Do you not realize that those who KNEW that they had ALREADY placed Him upon the Cross BY SINNING, that IF they FELL back into SIN, they were RE-Crucifying Him afresh? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew?

So you think that is a good thing? To sin so grace will abound?

 

[ImAHebrew]

Right, I have no idea. You could be playing games with us or you could be a Messianic. Jews wouldn't be quoting Paul, most Christians would use the term "Jesus". Messianics and JWs won't use the term Jesus or God. Well, I guess it boils down to who cares what you are or what your are not. Knowing what you are will not change my world.

Shalom Bob S, I'm not a messianic, nor am I a JW, nor ANYTHING you have ever encountered. Eventually, you WILL care. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Shalom Bob S, I'm not a messianic, nor am I a JW, nor ANYTHING you have ever encountered. Eventually, you WILL care. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Why, you don't believe you are Jesus do you?

 

[ImAHebrew]

So you think that is a good thing? To sin so grace will abound?

Shalom 1stcenturylady, the POWER of the Cross is to TURN sinners FROM their sin, and that is what the Grace of Elohim TEACHES. IF one remains IN their sin, they are UNDER the Law, Sacrificing Yeshua. Yeshua desires for you to LEARN how to be MERCIFUL to Him, and stop sinning. He desires MERCY, rather than you continuing to Sacrifice Him BY SINNING. Have you not heard what He said:

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the Law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill Me?

Disobedience to the Law of Moses is how we go about to KILL or SACRIFICE Yeshua. Please, be merciful, and STOP sinning. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[ImAHebrew]

Why, you don't believe you are Jesus do you?

Shalom 1stcenturylady, NO, I am NOT Yeshua, BUT, I am PART of Him, and you should listen to what I tell you. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Shalom 1stcenturylady, NO, I am NOT Yeshua, BUT, I am PART of Him, and you should listen to what I tell you. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

If you believe in deliberate sinning so grace can abound, don't you realize that is walking in darkness. Jesus didn't die so we could sin all the more! He died so we could be dead to sin, that it would no longer be our master.

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." Those sins are not forgiven. I don't think you want to know what my definition of grace is, but if you ever do, let me know - if you'll listen.

 

[Soyeong]

Shalom Soyeong, I like how you think. Let me clear up several things. Our sin/transgression is what Sacrificed Yeshua, and we did this, "not knowing what we were doing," (Luke 23:34) with the HELP of the hands of wicked men (Acts 2:23). The Law REQUIRES that for one to be JUSTIFIED, one must SACRIFICE when they have sinned in ignorance (Leviticus 4:27-29). So, when one does PERFORM this sacrifice, it becomes RIGHTEOUSNESS for them. Well, the Righteousness that comes from FAITH, is by BELIEVING the Yeshua is YOUR Sacrifice, and that you did SACRIFICE Him by Sinning, therefore, anyone who desires this JUSTIFICATION in Messiah, HAD to be a sinner (Galatians 2:17), so that when sin is increased, this Free Gift of Righteousness is increased all the more (Romans 5:20). Does this explanation of Grace make any sense to you? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Shalom,

God never gave any command that He required to be obeyed in order to become justified, but rather the one and only way that there has ever been to become justified is by faith, and by the same faith we are required to be careful to live in obedience to all of God's commands. Abraham was justified by faith, by the same faith he lived in obedience to all of God's commands, and God had no need to provide an alternative and unobtainable means of becoming justified by works when a perfectly good means of becoming justified by faith was already in place. According to John 8:56, Abraham saw Messiah's day and was glad, so the people who were justified in the OT were looked forward in faith to the promise of a redeemer just as we look backward in faith.

Take a scenario where someone owed you more money that they could ever repay, so you decide to forgive their debt. It wouldn't be a simple as just wiping the books clean because you would still be out the money they owed you, so in order to forgive their debt, you would essentially need to pay their debt for them in their place. The wages of Lawlessness is death, so that is the debt we owe, and in order for God to forgive us, He would need pay our debt for us in our place, and this is why it was necessary for Messiah to give himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness. We do not need to sacrifice Messiah, but rather he gave up his life on his own accord. I hadn't considered the angle where they needed to offer a sacrifice for their sin ignorance for crucifying Messiah, but I think you are reading too much into his words on the cross, especially if we would need to offer him as a sacrifice for the sin of offering him as a sacrifice. Also, Leviticus 4:27-29 does not stipulate that we will be justified by obeying that command, but rather if by faith we are careful to obey all God's commands, then it will be righteousness for us.

 

[ImAHebrew]

If you believe in deliberate sinning so grace can abound, don't you realize that is walking in darkness. Jesus didn't die so we could sin all the more! He died so we could be dead to sin, that it would no longer be our master.

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." Those sins are not forgiven. I don't think you want to know what my definition of grace is, but if you ever do, let me know - if you'll listen.

Shalom 1stcenturylady, you did not grasp or LISTEN to what I said, and I thought you PROMISED. You need to read what I wrote to Soyeong about Grace and the Free Gift of Righteousness. Paul taught that it was BY sinning that Grace did abound, and it is OUR obligation to NOT increase Grace, by REMAINING in Sin, but our obligation is to come into the cessation of our sin. That is the PURPOSE of Grace, to cause you/us to TURN from ALL of your/our iniquities (Acts 3:26), so that you/we are NO LONGER Sacrificing Yeshua (no deliberate sin). Do you understand NOW? Paul did not teach to REMAIN in Sin, but he sure did teach that YOUR sin and MINE did place Yeshua upon the Cross, and that FULFILLS what the Law REQUIRED from us with regards to our sin. We have accomplished Righteousness, by Sacrificing Yeshua, THROUGH many offences (Romans 5:16). Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[ImAHebrew]

Shalom,

God never gave any command that He required to be obeyed in order to become justified, but rather the one and only way that there has ever been to become justified is by faith, and by the same faith we are required to be careful to live in obedience to all of God's commands. Abraham was justified by faith, by the same faith he lived in obedience to all of God's commands, and God had no need to provide an alternative and unobtainable means of becoming justified by works when a perfectly good means of becoming justified by faith was already in place. According to John 8:56, Abraham saw Messiah's day and was glad, so the people who were justified in the OT were looked forward in faith to the promise of a redeemer just as we look backward in faith.

Take a scenario where someone owed you more money that they could ever repay, so you decide to forgive their debt. It wouldn't be a simple as just wiping the books clean because you would still be out the money they owed you, so in order to forgive their debt, you would essentially need to pay their debt for them in their place. The wages of Lawlessness is death, so that is the debt we owe, and in order for God to forgive us, He would need pay our debt for us in our place, and this is why it was necessary for Messiah to give himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness. We do not need to sacrifice Messiah, but rather he gave up his life on his own accord. I hadn't considered the angle where they needed to offer a sacrifice for their sin ignorance for crucifying Messiah, but I think you are reading too much into his words on the cross, especially if we would need to offer him as a sacrifice for the sin of offering him as a sacrifice. Also, Leviticus 4:27-29 does not stipulate that we will be justified by obeying that command, but rather if by faith we are careful to obey all God's commands, then it will be righteousness for us.

Shalom Soyeong, again, I do like how you think, and it would behoove you to listen. Substitutionalism is FALSE. Elohim will not substitute righteousness, and He will not justify the wicked through or by the killing of the Righteous and Innocent One. In fact, He will allow the wicked to live if it means that the Righteous would be killed:

Genesis 18:23-25 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that [are] therein? 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Your substitutional doctrine of having Elohim punish Yeshua in YOUR place so that the Righteous One should be AS the Wicked, is not doing right. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Soyeong]

Shalom Soyeong, again, I do like how you think, and it would behoove you to listen. Substitutionalism is FALSE. Elohim will not substitute righteousness, and He will not justify the wicked through or by the killing of the Righteous and Innocent One. In fact, He will allow the wicked to live if it means that the Righteous would be killed:

Genesis 18:23-25 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that [are] therein? 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Your substitutional doctrine of having Elohim punish Yeshua in YOUR place so that the Righteous One should be AS the Wicked, is not doing right. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

The sin offering is based on substitution where the person would lean on the offering and take its spotlessness while it took on their guilt, and then they would kill it in their place, so there is no avoiding substitution. As I pointed out, forgiveness entails substitution, so there would be no forgiveness of sins without it. You can not pay someone's debt without taking that debt on yourself. If someone were fined money for breaking a law and you paid that fine on the behalf, then you would be taking their debt on yourself without having any guilt. And as I point out, Messiah laid down his own life, which he did out of love.

 

[ImAHebrew]

The sin offering is based on substitution where the person would lean on the offering and take its spotlessness while it took on their guilt, and then they would kill it in their place, so there is no avoiding substitution. As I pointed out, forgiveness entails substitution, so there would be no forgiveness of sins without it. You can not pay someone's debt without taking that debt on yourself. If someone were fined money for breaking a law and you paid that fine on the behalf, then you would be taking their debt on yourself without having any guilt. And as I point out, Messiah laid down his own life, which he did out of love.

Shalom Soyeong, I truly understand how you are thinking, but it is not correct. Within Judaism, there was a debate as to what it meant to "lean on" or "place you hands upon the head" of the offering. Some concluded it meant "transference" and some argued it meant "identification." That "leaning on" was to mean that you placed your BELIEF upon the Head (which is Messiah), and that you became One with Him (identification) and that when He died, YOU DIED. You were crucified WITH Him, not that He died in your PLACE as your substitute. Paul taught that He was crucified WITH Messiah (Galatians 2:20), and that WHEN Messiah died, ALL died, not that He died in the place of ALL (2 Corinthians 5:14), and this is WHY Paul did not look at anyone as LIVING, "after the flesh"...all were dead (2 Corinthians 5:16), and what do you do with the DEAD? Do you not BURY them...in Baptism? So DYING in the place of someone is a "fairy tale." Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Shalom 1stcenturylady, you did not grasp or LISTEN to what I said, and I thought you PROMISED. You need to read what I wrote to Soyeong about Grace and the Free Gift of Righteousness. Paul taught that it was BY sinning that Grace did abound, and it is OUR obligation to NOT increase Grace, by REMAINING in Sin, but our obligation is to come into the cessation of our sin. That is the PURPOSE of Grace, to cause you/us to TURN from ALL of your/our iniquities (Acts 3:26), so that you/we are NO LONGER Sacrificing Yeshua (no deliberate sin). Do you understand NOW? Paul did not teach to REMAIN in Sin, but he sure did teach that YOUR sin and MINE did place Yeshua upon the Cross, and that FULFILLS what the Law REQUIRED from us with regards to our sin. We have accomplished Righteousness, by Sacrificing Yeshua, THROUGH many offences (Romans 5:16). Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

I'm certainly glad you clarified that we come to a "cessation of our sin." That's not what you said before, and I was shocked. So how do we come to a cessation of our sin through grace? What about grace makes us stop sinning?