Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

[-57]

The OT saints were saved and born again and could lose it as we read

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. "(Ezekiel 18:24 KJV)

And David had to repent of his sin and he knew there was a danger of ring cast away from God, psalm 51

So, you believe in a works based salvation...that explains a lot.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Not in the way people are saved post-Calvary. How could they be? And if they could be, why, then, couldn't we all?

We always could. They are just two separate, yet much the same idea, covenants...we are under the new covenant now. The old one required a sin offering, the new one was a single huge offering from God to handle everything. And no more having to slash the throats of cute little innocent animals...an innocent Christ took the place of all that....thank God.

 

[LoveofTruth]

It also ignores the question of why Christ needed to die if people could be saved before he was crucified.

Jesus died for the sins that were past also . God was able to give them the free gift and sow His word in thier hearts the seed or the true Light to those who hungered and thirst after righteousness . This was based upon Christ wirk in time .

 

[LoveofTruth]

So, you believe in a works based salvation...that explains a lot.

Not in my own works or dead works or works of the law but in Christ work on the cross for me and Christ work on me as I abide in Him

God works in all believers to make them perfect unto every good work

These works are needed and they are of God

I could say to some "show me your faith without God working in you and manifesting the life in your wAlk and I will show you my faith by God working in me and h life of Christ manifest in my walk

We are saved by grace through faith and created in Christ Jesus unto good works

 

[Kenny'sID]

So, you believe in a works based salvation...that explains a lot.

You throw something out there that sounds like a good defense for you, but in reality there is much more to it, look up "faith and works".

It's not workd based, and when you call it that, you are not telling the truth, just a partial truth for your own selfish reasons. It's bible based, and again look up the sheep and the goats for proof of needed works, unless you are afraid of what you will find, or have done it already.

 

[aiki]

We always could. They are just two separate, yet much the same idea, covenants...we are under the new covenant now. The old one required a sin offering, the new one was a single huge offering from God to handle everything. And no more having to slash the throats of cute little innocent animals...an innocent Christ took the place of all that....thank God.

As I said, OT worshipers of God were not saved in the way that people post-Calvary are. Nothing you've noted above rebuts this fact. Perhaps you should read Hebrews 9. It will explain the important differences between the sacrifices of the OT and the atonement of Christ in the NT.

Selah.

 

[-57]

No we read of sins of ignorance in scripture and to him that knoweth to do good and does it not to him it is sin

Many believers were ignorant of many things Paul would rebuke them at times saying things like "know ye not that the unrighteousness shall not inherit the kingdom of God ..,

Do you still sin? If so then you seem to be claiming Christ blood wasn't good enough to wash away your future sins...and are now doomed to hell. What a sad religion.

 

[aiki]

Jesus died for the sins that were past also . God was able to give them the free gift and sow His word in thier hearts the seed or the true Light to those who hungered and thirst after righteousness . This was based upon Christ wirk in time .

Christ's atonement might have been retroactive in its effect, but only for those in the OT who died as faithful worshipers of Jehovah. This was not the case with Judas.

Selah.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Stop playing dodge ball. Present it or retract it.

I did. that's why the Scripture reference turns to a link, to present the scripture when you click on it, but yeah, you have to put forth all that effort of clicking it. You do see how this looks don't you?

Let me ask you, and see if the truth is in you...are you familiar with the Sheep/goats scripture already?

 

[-57]

I did. that's why the Scripture reference turns to a link, to present the scripture when you click on it, but yeah, you have to put forth all that effort of clicking it. You do see how this looks don't you?

Let me ask you, and see if the truth is in you...are you familiar with the Sheep/goats scripture already?

Yes...what's your point?

 

[-57]

You throw something out there that sounds like a good defense for you, but in reality there is much more to it, look up "faith and works".

It's not workd based, and when you call it that, you are not telling the truth, just a partial truth for your own selfish reasons. It's bible based, and again look up the sheep and the goats for proof of needed works, unless you are afraid of what you will find, or have done it already.

You speak in riddles..thinking I can read your mind.
You do know that works don't produce salvation but rather salvation produces works.

 

[Kenny'sID]

As I said, OT worshipers of God were not saved in the way that people post-Calvary are. Nothing you've noted above rebuts this fact. Perhaps you should read Hebrews 9. It will explain the important differences between the sacrifices of the OT and the atonement of Christ in the NT.

Selah.

Of course it does, I just showed you a lot is the same. If you choose not to see what is biblicaly verifiable...up to you.

Also, I've read the bible , so maybe you need to explain what you think I'm not seeing.. The sacrifices are different but the same general idea. There are some reasons the new covenant is better, of course, else it would not have been changed. Otherwise it's much the same that is expected of us.

But, either way, I'd still like to hear your explanation, so I can see what you are doing with the scripture of which you're referring to. I'm just not going to see it means the same thing you have been taught, or havechosen to believe it does.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yes...what's your point?

I'm so glad you asked. You are now telling me you were familiar with the verse all along, yet you pretended otherwise. So even though I knew you would have to tell the truth when I put it the question the way I did, it still reveals, the truth is not in you.

You were evading the verse all along, because you knew what it entailed.

You've made your purpose clear here so, I think we're done.

 

[aiki]

Of course it does, I just showed you a lot is the same. If you choose not to see what is biblicaly verifiable...up to you.

Sharing some similarities between them no more makes the sacrifices of the OT equivalent to the atonement of Christ than the similarities of a guppy to a whale shark make them equivalent. Hebrews 9 is taken up with delineating the important differences between OT sacrifices and the NT atonement of Christ. And those differences make all the difference to the question of pre-Calvary salvation - as the writer of Hebrews explains.

Selah.

 

[Kenny'sID]

God spiritually views all in 2 categories:
1. Believers = saved
2. UNBelievers = UNsaved
Believers have spiritual Eternal Security of their salvation.
UNBelievers do NOT!

Then the question would be, do you think we can become unbelievers?

And that is not really a loaded question, however one must certainly look closely at what "believing" entails.

 

[-57]

I'm so glad you asked. You are now telling me you were familiar with the verse all along, yet you pretended otherwise. So even though I knew you would have to tell the truth when I put it the question the way I did, it still reveals, the truth is not in you.

You were evading the verse all along, because you knew what it entailed.

You've made your purpose clear here so, I think we're done.

You're now playing dodge ball. I simply asked you to present the portion of the verse you had in mind and an explanation....you refuse to do so. That makes me think you made a mistake.

It;s easy, present the verse and why...or move on.

 

[LoveofTruth]

As I said, OT worshipers of God were not saved in the way that people post-Calvary are. Nothing you've noted above rebuts this fact. Perhaps you should read Hebrews 9. It will explain the important differences between the sacrifices of the OT and the atonement of Christ in the NT.

Selah.

all OT saints were saved the same way we are by grace through faith. Not of works

 

[-57]

all OT saints were saved the same way we are by grace through faith. Not of works

I agree. That's waht the bible teaches us.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Christ's atonement might have been retroactive in its effect, but only for those in the OT who died as faithful worshipers of Jehovah. This was not the case with Judas.

Selah.

in John 17 Jesus said of the twelve, "thine they were [past tense speaking of all twelve Judas included], and thou gavest them to me" In Matthew 10 we see when Jesus called unto him HIS twelve ( not his 11 and one deal as some falsely say)

Judas was one of the ones even to jesus and one of His sheep at the beginning. Jesus ordained all twelve and gave all twelve power to cast out devils etc, and sent all twelve as sheep to the lost sheep

this is clear from scripture to the unbiased reader

very clear

Jesus said his sheep hear his vice and he knows them and he gives unto them eternal life. Judas was one of those. Then Judas fell by transgression and was lost as jesus said in John 17. And as we read in Acts 1

 

[Kenny'sID]

Sharing some similarities between them no more makes the sacrifices of the OT equivalent to the atonement of Christ than the similarities of a guppy to a whale shark make them equivalent. Hebrews 9 is taken up with delineating the important differences between OT sacrifices and the NT atonement of Christ. And those differences make all the difference to the question of pre-Calvary salvation - as the writer of Hebrews explains.

Right, and?

What did you want from me? You said they weren't the same and I gave you some reasons why they where, and you act like I'm up to something. lol. I never said they were equivalent, I even spoke of some differences. Sorry if they weren't the differences you wanted, but then, why didn't you just point those differences out to begin with?

You still didn't give me much, if anything. If you want me to know what you are saying, you have to say what you know.