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Question on Noah's Ark

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JD16

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There is scientific methodology which can be used for examining anything.
The results may might not be reproducible by a "hostile" investigator
but scientific methodology covers up all kinds of sloppy science.

I disagree, the scientific method can only be used to investigate the natural world.
You do understand that the scientific method is 'neutral' right? It's not dependent on the investigator as the results of such a test must be replicable and subjected to peer review? Any attempt at fraud can be easily exposed. And the most important aspect of it is,...it does not deal with the supernatural,....and by sloppy science I'm presuming you mean pseudo science, which by definition is not science. Christianity is a religion, and all religion requires faith,...there is no evidence. If there was, it can be reviewed and tested. So please explain how is it scientific in any way?
 
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SkyWriting

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You forgot to answer my question. Here it is again:

Which of these would you consider the most reasonable "assumption":
- a human walked there
- a bipedal dog with shoes in the shape of human feet walked there
- a supernatural ethereal demon put the tracks there to mislead us

My guess, or assumption, will 100%
in every single instance
have zero impact on the truth.
Absolutely zero.

All your asking is which answer would prop up my ego the most
due to my fear of being found wrong.

In the Indiana Dunes State Park a little boy disappeared
without a trace of him in sight. What is the most likely
reason he could not be found?

-a
-b
-c?

Did you guess there were vertical tubes or voids in the sand
20 to 30 feet deep? They closed off the entire area due to
the vertical voids in the sand.

Did you correctly guess why the voids were there?
You have to research the story to find out.
 
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AV1611VET

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Science is anything but faith,....do you understand the scientific method?
Do you?

There is no single list called "The Scientific Method." It is a myth.


The rules of a science-fair typically require that students follow THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD, or in other words, hypothesis-experiment-conclusion. The students must propose a hypothesis and test it by experiment. This supposedly is the "Scientific Method" used by all scientists. Supposedly, if you don't follow the rigidly defined "Scientific Method" listed in K-6 textbooks, then you're not doing science. (Some science fairs even ban astronomy and paleontology projects. After all, where's the "experiment" in these?)

Unfortunately this is wrong, and there is no single "Scientific Method" as such. Scientists don't follow a rigid procedure-list called "The Scientific Method" in their daily work. The procedure-list is a myth spread by K-6 texts. It is an extremely widespread myth, and even some scientists have been taken in by it, but this doesn't make it any more real. "The Scientific Method" is part of school and school books, and is not how science in general is done. Real scientists use a large variety of methods (perhaps call them methods of science rather than "The Scientific Method.") Hypothesis / experiment / conclusion is one of these, and it's very important in experimental science such as physics and chemistry, but it's certainly not the only method. It would be a mistake to elevate it above all others. We shouldn't force children to memorize any such procedure list. And we shouldn't use it to exclude certain types of projects from science fairs! If "The Scientific Method" listed in a grade school textbook proves that Astronomy is not a science, then it's the textbook which is wrong, not Astronomy.
"Ask a scientist what he conceives the scientific method to be and he adopts an expression that is at once solemn and shifty-eyed: solemn, because he feels he ought to declare an opinion; shifty-eyed because he is wondering how to conceal the fact that he has no opinion to declare." - Sir Peter Medawar
There are many parts of science that cannot easily be forced into the mold of "hypothesis-experiment-conclusion." Astronomy is not an experimental science, and Paleontologists don't perform Paleontology experiments... so is it not proper Science if you study stars or classify extinct creatures?


Or, if a scientist has a good idea for designing a brand new kind of measurement instrument (e.g. Newton and the reflecting telescope) ...that certainly is "doing science." Humphrey Davy says "Nothing tends so much to the advancement of knowledge as the application of a new instrument." But where is The Hypothesis? Where is The Experiment? The Atomic Force Microscope (STM/AFM) revolutionized science. Yet if a student invented the very first reflector telescope or the very first AFM, wouldn't such a device be rejected from many school science fairs? After all, it's not an experiment, and the lists called "Scientific Method" say nothing about exploratory observation. Some science teachers would reject the STM as science; calling it 'mere engineering,' yet like the Newtonian reflector, the tunneling microscope is a revolution that opened up an entire new branch of science. Since it's instrument-inventing, not hypothesis-testing, should we exclude it as science? Were the creators of the STM not doing science when they came up with that device? In defining Science, the Nobel prize committee disagrees with the science teachers and science fair judges. The researchers who created the STM won the 1986 Nobel prize in physics. I'd say that if someone wins a Nobel prize in physics, it's a good bet that their work qualifies as "science."

Forcing kids to follow a caricature of scientific research distorts science, and it really isn't necessary in the first place.

Another example: great discoveries often come about when scientists notice anomalies. They see something inexplicable during older research, and that triggers some new research. Or sometimes they notice something weird out in Nature; something not covered by modern theory. Isaac Asimov said it well:
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny...' "
This suggests that lots of important science comes NOT from proposing hypotheses or even from performing experiments, but instead comes from unguided observation and curiosity-driven exploration: from sniffing about while learning to see what nobody else can see. Scientific discovery comes from something resembling "informed messing around," or unguided play. Yet the "Scientific Method" listed in textbooks says nothing about this, their lists start out with "form a hypothesis." As a result, educators treat science as deadly serious business, and "messing around" is sometimes dealt with harshly.

Source: amasci.com
 
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KWCrazy

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And all the evidence demonstrates that such a thing never happened.
Your interpretation of the evidence.
We all know that the Colorado River couldn't cut through the Grand Canyon in 50 million years. At Grandview Point it's 7.400 feet high. Assuming that water never runs uphill, how would it have flowed up over the mountain with enough force to cut it down into a flowable ravine?

Comparably, the Mississippi river at its deepest point is only 200 feet deep. Wouldn't a river which is a mile wide at parts flow enough water to cut an even bigger canyon? Why hasn't it?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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You suggest there is a meaning hidden in the first few verses?

Not really. It's as plain as day when read in the larger context. If scripture were to be understood as written literally (translated really) there would be no need to study and meditate on it, as exhorted by the writers.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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You're being silly

Exactly!!

What you just used as an example is an absurd statement with or without including GOD

GIGO: garbage in, garbage out.

It's the exact same logic in both statements.

"if I assume that magic happens, then I can say that magic happens!!!"
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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But I am referring to the book you are imagining that you have read in the scriptures.
If this story was on Tom's bookshelf, Lord Xenu may be used as a witness.

It's the story of Scientology. A religion with millions of followers world wide.
 
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JD16

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Do you?

There is no single list called "The Scientific Method."

Sure I do, there may not be a single list, but what ever list is used it must contain the following

"systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses". Experiments need to be designed to test hypotheses. The most important part of the scientific method is the experiment"

"Scientists then test hypotheses by conducting experiments. Under modern interpretations, a scientific hypothesis must be falsifiable, implying that it is possible to identify a possible outcome of an experiment that conflicts with predictions deduced from the hypothesis; otherwise, the hypothesis cannot be meaningfully tested"

Scientific method - Wikipedia
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Not to last for a year and require the evacuation of every kind of animal in the region.
It took years to build the ark. Why not just move?
It wasn't just a flood, it was a flood that covered the mountains; not possible with easy run-off to the sea. You would have to stack water on itself.

It's just a story dude.
You seem to be under the impression that I am of the opinion that this story is true or is even based on a true event.

I'm just saying, if it actually IS based on a true event, then the only reasonable explanation is that it concerned an apocalyptic-style local flood, the kind that happens all the time and which doesn't require any supernatural shenannigans as an explanation.

All the fluff in the story is then just an exaggeration, which isn't exactly a rare phenomena either.

Like with that fire a few years ago at the local bakkery in my village. What actually happened was that their boiler caught fire. They controlled it themselves with a common fire extinguisher, but off course the fire squad came by as well, in all their might and glory and with several trucks.

The damage was minimal and ONLY the boiler caught fire.
That was on a wednesday. By the end of the week, at the local pub, the story being told was that the entire backery was ruined. I thought that was quite hilarious as that building was just down the street of my house. I also knew those people quite well.

I knew for a fact that it was just a small fire in the boiler only and that it was quickly under control. There was no further damage at all. They didn't even need to close the shop. Not even for a few hours.

So, in only 2 days, that story went from "the boiler is damage" to "the entire shop is ruined".

Imagine what it would turn into if that telephone game is allowed to continue for 4000 years.
 
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miknik5

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Exactly!!



GIGO: garbage in, garbage out.

It's the exact same logic in both statements.

"if I assume that magic happens, then I can say that magic happens!!!"
There's nothing I can say to you

You deny GOD

If you didn't, then you would understand and couldn't deny HIS sovereignty over all the things we labor after
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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My guess, or assumption, will 100%
in every single instance
have zero impact on the truth.
Absolutely zero.

All your asking is which answer would prop up my ego the most
due to my fear of being found wrong.

In the Indiana Dunes State Park a little boy disappeared
without a trace of him in sight. What is the most likely
reason he could not be found?

-a
-b
-c?

Did you guess there were vertical tubes or voids in the sand
20 to 30 feet deep? They closed off the entire area due to
the vertical voids in the sand.

Did you correctly guess why the voids were there?
You have to research the story to find out.

It is very telling how you dance around on this issue....

Why is it so hard for you to answer this very simple question?
Here it is again:

Which of these would you consider the most reasonable "assumption":
- a human walked there
- a bipedal dog with shoes in the shape of human feet walked there
- a supernatural ethereal demon put the tracks there to mislead us

So, what is your answer and why?
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Your interpretation of the evidence.


No.
The facts speak for themselves...

No global geological layer of a single flood.
No universal bottleneck in all of life.

It really is that easy.

We all know that the Colorado River couldn't cut through the Grand Canyon in 50 million years. At Grandview Point it's 7.400 feet high. Assuming that water never runs uphill, how would it have flowed up over the mountain with enough force to cut it down into a flowable ravine?

Comparably, the Mississippi river at its deepest point is only 200 feet deep. Wouldn't a river which is a mile wide at parts flow enough water to cut an even bigger canyon? Why hasn't it?


Ignoring the explanations of science for such geological formations, is not going to advance your case of magical floods.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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There's nothing I can say to you
Indeed, there isn't. Exactly the problem.

You need something more to convince me then "if we assume god, we can say god".

You deny GOD

Not exactly.
Rather: you assume god. I don't. Which isn't really the same as "denying god".

If you didn't, then you would understand and couldn't deny HIS sovereignty over all the things we labor after

Yes, if I believed as you believe, then I would believe as you believe.
 
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dad

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Not really. It's as plain as day when read in the larger context. If scripture were to be understood as written literally (translated really) there would be no need to study and meditate on it, as exhorted by the writers.
So for some reason you have not posted it is plain as day that we need to insert untold ages and strange battles and ruin and magic restoration into the first verses of the bible. OK. Good luck with that.
 
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Speedwell

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Your interpretation of the evidence.
We all know that the Colorado River couldn't cut through the Grand Canyon in 50 million years. At Grandview Point it's 7.400 feet high. Assuming that water never runs uphill, how would it have flowed up over the mountain with enough force to cut it down into a flowable ravine?

Comparably, the Mississippi river at its deepest point is only 200 feet deep. Wouldn't a river which is a mile wide at parts flow enough water to cut an even bigger canyon? Why hasn't it?
We all know? You don't know, and maybe the proprietors of whatever creationist ministry website you picked up that tidbit from don't know, but geologists have complete and well-evidenced explanations for those phenomena.
 
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