Is Jesus the only one who can pay for our sins?

[bling]

1. 
   
   
   
   A ransom, yes; a sacrifice, no. A ransom is an act of redemption.

You say: “Not a sacrifice”, but there was a sacrifice in the atonement process in the OT which was a poor shadow of what we have with the Christian atonement process, so what ‘action” was the reality of the OT sacrifices?

When a person today freely willingly gives up his life to save others we say he made a sacrifice, so did Christ do the same thing?

I fully agree there was an actual (not figurative) ransom payment (Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the Hebrew write all describe it as a ransom payment) so what is included in this ransom payment that excludes it from being a sacrifice?

Are we not called upon to be a sacrifice?

Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[EmSw]

No, the real question is why you have ignored what Jesus said?

You mean like, 'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'?

Did He say that for salvation? Absolutely NOT.

He NEVER said He went to the cross for salvation either.

Then please explain WHY He even went to the cross.

You might know if you explain why He went out into the wilderness.

I have already explained that to you. He, in fact, DID mention his coming sacrifice on the cross in John 3:16, which is linked to Gal 1:4 by the word for "gave". It means to give sacrificially.

Quit speculating. He said nothing about a sacrifice in John, and you know it.

Galatians 1:4
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Who gave who? Did God give, or did Jesus give? Besides, Galatians says nothing about a sacrifice. Please quit making stuff up.

However, it seems you're just not willing (or able) to explain why Jesus bothered sacrificing Himself on a cross for the sins of mankind. Why is that?

Jesus didn't sacrifice Himself on the cross. Nothing to explain. It seems you know very little about sacrifices. Head on over to Leviticus 3 and learn about sacrifices. You'll be amazed what you find. SACRIFICES WERE NEVER MADE ON PAGAN CROSSES! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! You are desecrating the holy things of God. You are profaning God's sacrifice.

Until you know what all God's sacrifice involves, quit making things up. God's sacrifices were not tried before pagan courts. God's sacrifices were not beaten before death. God's sacrifices had their throats cut and the blood drained. The blood was sprinkled on the altar and priest. The sacrifice was unblemished; Jesus was marred beyond recognition. All these add up to God not accepting Jesus' supposed sacrifice.

 

[EmSw]

You say: “Not a sacrifice”, but there was a sacrifice in the atonement process in the OT which was a poor shadow of what we have with the Christian atonement process, so what ‘action” was the reality of the OT sacrifices?

Read Leviticus 3 and you will see the actions before a sacrfice.

When a person today freely willingly gives up his life to save others we say he made a sacrifice, so did Christ do the same thing?

The sacrifice we make is not the same as Levitical sacrifices.

I fully agree there was an actual (not figurative) ransom payment (Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the Hebrew write all describe it as a ransom payment) so what is included in this ransom payment that excludes it from being a sacrifice?

Victory over the temptations of sin.

Are we not called upon to be a sacrifice?

Once you are without blemish and have a high priest perform the sacrifice, no, we are not called to be a sacrifice.

Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

I prefer to be told by Jesus Himself, not by an anonymous author. If a sacrifice was so important, why did Jesus not mention it once?

Hebrews 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

A high priest did not sacrifice himself. Jesus did not cut His own throat to let the blood drain. Again, read Leviticus 3 to see how sacrifices were performed to be acceptable to God.

Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

When you find Jesus saying He was a sacrifice, let me know. I will be glad to read it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You mean like, 'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'?

No, all the verses where eternal life is based on believing on Him.

He NEVER said He went to the cross for salvation either.

So, why can't you provide any explanation for why He went to the cross, then?

Quit speculating. He said nothing about a sacrifice in John, and you know it.

The word for "gave" in John 3:16 includes "offer a sacrifice".

Galatians 1:4
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Who gave who? Did God give, or did Jesus give?

Easy answers. Re: Gal 1:4, Jesus "gave Himself for our sins". Can you explain what that means, since you've denied that He made any sacrifice.

Re: John 3:16, the Father gave His Son. Obviously, as a sacrifice. Or, maybe you can explain in what way did the Father give the Son that wasn't a sacrifice.

Besides, Galatians says nothing about a sacrifice. Please quit making stuff up.

Just explain what Gal 1:4 means then.

Jesus didn't sacrifice Himself on the cross.

What was He doing there, then?

Nothing to explain.

Quite the opposite. It's your view that needs to explain WHY He went to the cross. Or does your view deny that He even went to the cross. Which is what Muslims have done; deny the cross.

It seems you know very little about sacrifices. Head on over to Leviticus 3 and learn about sacrifices.

The sacrifices were a picture or shadow of what Jesus came to do.

You'll be amazed what you find. SACRIFICES WERE NEVER MADE ON PAGAN CROSSES! NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! You are desecrating the holy things of God. You are profaning God's sacrifice.

How come Jesus' time on a cross was prophesied in the OT? Even down to His skivvies.

Until you know what all God's sacrifice involves, quit making things up.

Don't dodge your responsibility to explain why Jesus went to the cross.

God's sacrifices were not tried before pagan courts. God's sacrifices were not beaten before death. God's sacrifices had their throats cut and the blood drained. The blood was sprinkled on the altar and priest. The sacrifice was unblemished; Jesus was marred beyond recognition. All these add up to God not accepting Jesus' supposed sacrifice.

Just read Isa 53. Many Jewish synagogues won't read that chapter because of how much it describes what Jesus went through.

 

[EmSw]

No, all the verses where eternal life is based on believing on Him.

...'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'. Oops, you completely forgot this passage. It's not believing, but keeping.

So, why can't you provide any explanation for why He went to the cross, then?

What did you come up with on why He was driven into the wilderness?

The word for "gave" in John 3:16 includes "offer a sacrifice".

Again, you know nothing about OT sacrifices. You are trying so hard to include pagan sacrifices on a pagan cross.

Why did God have to offer a sacrifice? Is God sinful?

Easy answers. Re: Gal 1:4, Jesus "gave Himself for our sins". Can you explain what that means, since you've denied that He made any sacrifice.

The animals who were sacrificed DID NOT give themselves. You profane God's sacrifices.

John 6
32 Then Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

It is the bread of God which gives life, not a sacrifice.

John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Did you notice, you eat this bread, not sacrifice it. It is the man who eats this bread who will live forever. He then says -

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Did you notice you have no life in you, unless you eat His flesh and drink His blood. Have you done this? This is what you must do to have life.

Re: John 3:16, the Father gave His Son. Obviously, as a sacrifice. Or, maybe you can explain in what way did the Father give the Son that wasn't a sacrifice.

Why do you say 'obviously'? It doesn't say that at all. He gave the living bread from Heaven, now that is in the Bible. You don't sacrifice bread. I don't know, maybe you do.

He gave the Son to bring truth and life into the world, which He did. This truth you can't believe because you are bent on pagan sacrifices.

Just explain what Gal 1:4 means then.

Why are you so bent of a sacrifice? It doesn't say sacrifice there either.

What was He doing there, then?

John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Quite the opposite. It's your view that needs to explain WHY He went to the cross. Or does your view deny that He even went to the cross. Which is what Muslims have done; deny the cross.

He went to the cross, but not as a sacrifice. The Jews wanted to kill Him, and He allowed it.

The sacrifices were a picture or shadow of what Jesus came to do.

You don't even know what sacrifices were in the OT.

How come Jesus' time on a cross was prophesied in the OT? Even down to His skivvies.

Where was it prophesied He would die on a cross?

Don't dodge your responsibility to explain why Jesus went to the cross.

If you don't have eyes to see, I can't help you.

Just read Isa 53. Many Jewish synagogues won't read that chapter because of how much it describes what Jesus went through.

I'm not denying what He went through. Isaiah 53 again says nothing about a sacrifice. You're struggling now.

 

[Marvin Knox]

..................................The animals who were sacrificed DID NOT give themselves. You profane God's sacrifices..................................He went to the cross, but not as a sacrifice. The Jews wanted to kill Him, and He allowed it...........You don't even know what sacrifices were in the OT....................................I'm not denying what He went through. Isaiah 53 again says nothing about a sacrifice. You're struggling now.

"But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand." Isaiah 53:10

What in God's name have you been smoking?

 

[FreeGrace2]

...'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'. Oops, you completely forgot this passage.

No, I explained that verse. Your view totally misunderstands it.

It's not believing, but keeping.

I believe what Scripture says about how to have eternal life:
Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."


Acts 11:14

14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So, it's settled. One is saved and has eternal life by believing in the Messiah.

I said this:
"So, why can't you provide any explanation for why He went to the cross, then?"

What did you come up with on why He was driven into the wilderness?

WOW. What a dodge. OK, it's clear that you have no intention to answer my question. And no idea of why Jesus went to the cross.

There was no question about why Jesus went into the wilderness, but the Bible tells us exactly why. He was not driven, as you erroneously claim, but was led by the Spirit, in order to be tempted by Satan.

Again, you know nothing about OT sacrifices. You are trying so hard to include pagan sacrifices on a pagan cross.

It's quite obvious that you know nothing about WHY God instituted sacrifices in the first place.

Why did God have to offer a sacrifice? Is God sinful?

Why the stupid question? Hey 9:22 tells us why there must be the shedding of blood (sacrifice): forgiveness.

It's also quite obvious that you know nothing of propitiation or atonement.

John 6
32 Then Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

It is the bread of God which gives life, not a sacrifice.

I never said the sacrifice gave life. Why don't you actually read my posts before making such inexcusable errors? The WAY in which Christ gives eternal life is by purchasing it for everyone and giving it to those who believe.

John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Did you notice, you eat this bread, not sacrifice it.

Those with even average reading skills know that when Jesus said "which I WILL GIVE" refers to His sacrifice on the cross. By dying on the cross.

It is the man who eats this bread who will live forever. He then says -

Was Jesus teaching cannibalism? Or what did He mean by "eating this bread"?

Did you notice you have no life in you, unless you eat His flesh and drink His blood. Have you done this? This is what you must do to have life.

I thought your theology was the same as the Pharisees; keep the commandments.

Why do you say 'obviously'? It doesn't say that at all. He gave the living bread from Heaven, now that is in the Bible. You don't sacrifice bread. I don't know, maybe you do.

Seems you don't know a lot of things.

He gave the Son to bring truth and life into the world, which He did. This truth you can't believe because you are bent on pagan sacrifices.

In what way did God the Father "give the Son"? Why can't you see His giving is a sacrifice?

Why are you so bent of a sacrifice? It doesn't say sacrifice there either.

You wouldn't see it if it was right before your eyes.

He went to the cross, but not as a sacrifice. The Jews wanted to kill Him, and He allowed it.

Please explain WHY He went to the cross. This doesn't explain why.

Where was it prophesied He would die on a cross?

Just read all the gospels and note each time the events of the crucifixion were said to be fulfillment of Scripture.

I said this:
"Don't dodge your responsibility to explain why Jesus went to the cross."

If you don't have eyes to see, I can't help you.

This is just a very cheap dodge, once again.

I'm not denying what He went through. Isaiah 53 again says nothing about a sacrifice. You're struggling now.

But you just can't seem to be able to explain why Jesus went to the cross.

From what you have posted, it seems your view is just that He let people kill Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand." Isaiah 53:10

What in God's name have you been smoking?

Not necessarily anything. But I will note what Scripture says:

1 John 5:19 - We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Rev 12:9 - The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Claiming that Jesus was no sacrifice is just the stuff the devil wants people to believe.

 

[bling]

Read Leviticus 3 and you will see the actions before a sacrfice.



The sacrifice we make is not the same as Levitical sacrifices.



Victory over the temptations of sin.



Once you are without blemish and have a high priest perform the sacrifice, no, we are not called to be a sacrifice.



I prefer to be told by Jesus Himself, not by an anonymous author. If a sacrifice was so important, why did Jesus not mention it once?



A high priest did not sacrifice himself. Jesus did not cut His own throat to let the blood drain. Again, read Leviticus 3 to see how sacrifices were performed to be acceptable to God.



When you find Jesus saying He was a sacrifice, let me know. I will be glad to read it.

Lev. 3 is not talking about an atonement sacrifice you find that in Lev. 5, but is talking about the fellowship offering which is like a feast.

Lev. 3 only talks about one type of offering and not all the offerings that the Jews were to make?

Abraham offered up Isaac, but that was not a fellowship offering?

Do you think the provider of the New Testament (the Holy Spirit) would allow false doctrine to be part of His inspiring words in Hebrews?

Do you feel Paul also did not speak the truth: Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.

Or John: 1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

How can you trust any writer of the New Testament to get any of Christ’s words right?

You say: “The sacrifice we make is not the same as Levitical sacrifices.” But you are only taking the one “offering” in Lev. 3 (which is more a butchering and cooking of meat to be consumed and not a “sacrificing” and the word “sacrifice” is not even used in Lev. 3). You are saying, here, we do make a sacrifice, so did Christ also make a sacrifice?

Did Jesus willingly allow Himself to be tortured, humiliated and murdered? (Does that not sound like a sacrifice?)

 

[shakewell]

Can unbelievers pay for their sins by being in Hell or is Jesus the only one who can pay for our sins (link)?

People can't pay for their sins in hell. If they could, once they paid for them they could get out of hell. That doesn't happen in Scripture. Christ alone can redeem a person (1 Peter 1:18,19).

 

[EmSw]

"But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand." Isaiah 53:10

What in God's name have you been smoking?

Well let's see if Jesus fulfilled the requirements of a guilt offering, shall we?

Leviticus 5
1 ‘If a person sins in hearing the utterance of an oath, and is a witness, whether he has seen or known of the matter—if he does not tell it, he bears guilt.

Here we see the sin in which dictates a guilt offering. So, if Jesus was a guilt offering, it was first for those who were witnesses of a matter and did not tell it. Does this offender sound like you, Marvin?

2 ‘Or if a person touches any unclean thing, whether it is the carcass of an unclean beast, or the carcass of unclean livestock, or the carcass of unclean creeping things, and he is unaware of it, he also shall be unclean and guilty.
3 Or if he touches human uncleanness—whatever uncleanness with which a man may be defiled, and he is unaware of it—when he realizes it, then he shall be guilty.
4 ‘Or if a person swears, speaking thoughtlessly with his lips to do evil or to do good, whatever it is that a man may pronounce by an oath, and he is unaware of it—when he realizes it, then he shall be guilty in any of these matters.

Now we have additional offenses mentioned. Touching an unclean carcass unaware, touching human uncleanness unaware, and swearing, speaking thoughtlessly unaware. So, we have four offenses, and no more, for which a guilt offering is commanded. Are you guilty of any of these offenses, Marvin?

Now we will see how the guilt offering is carried out.

5 ‘And it shall be, when he is guilty in any of these matters, that he shall confess that he has sinned in that thing;

First, we see a confession of these offenses has to be made. This is applicable to the person bringing the offering. Did you make a confession to any of these offenses before the sacrifice , Marvin?

6 and he shall bring his trespass offering to the Lord for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin.
7 ‘If he is not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring to the Lord, for his trespass which he has committed, two turtledoves or two young pigeons: one as a sin offering and the other as a burnt offering.
8 And he shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer that which is for the sin offering first, and wring off its head from its neck, but shall not divide it completely.

Now we see additional requirement for the guilt offering. The offender must bring his own trespass offering, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid. The offender brings his offering to the priest to make atonement. Did you bring your own trespass offering, Marvin?

Or, if he is not able to bring a lamb, he can substitute turtledoves or pigeons. The heads must be wrung from its neck. Did you do this Marvin, if you couldn't bring a lamb?

Now we will see how the offering is actually carried out. (As you will see, there is no cross in this offering).

9 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, and the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering.
10 And he shall offer the second as a burnt offering according to the prescribed manner. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin which he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
11 ‘But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.
12 Then he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as a memorial portion, and burn it on the altar according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord. It is a sin offering.
13 The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him. The rest shall be the priest’s as a grain offering.’”

Okay, now we seen the nitty gritty of this guilt offering. The blood must be sprinkled on the side of the altar, not drain down a pagan cross. We even see flour offered. We also see that these offerings were burnt, not hung on a cross.

14 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:
15 “If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally in regard to the holy things of the Lord, then he shall bring to the Lord as his trespass offering a ram without blemish from the flocks, with your valuation in shekels of silver according to the shekel of the sanctuary, as a trespass offering.
16 And he shall make restitution for the harm that he has done in regard to the holy thing, and shall add one-fifth to it and give it to the priest. So the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.
17 “If a person sins, and commits any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the Lord, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his iniquity.
18 And he shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish from the flock, with your valuation, as a trespass offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him regarding his ignorance in which he erred and did not know it, and it shall be forgiven him.
19 It is a trespass offering; he has certainly trespassed against the Lord.”

Marvin, do I need to go into the details any further? Do you see how the OT guilt offering was carried out? The crucifixion wan't even close to God's demands of this offering. And yes, IF Jesus would render Himself as a guilt offering...However, we see He wasn't rendered as a guilt offering, and He will still see His offspring, will prolong His days, and the good pleasureof the Lord will prosper in His hand.

Now that you know what is involved in a guilt offering, you can stop pretending Jesus was sacrificed. You couldn't find where Jesus called Himself a sacrifice, so stop making it the foundation of your beliefs. Get on board with the truths Jesus gave us.

 

[EmSw]

Lev. 3 is not talking about an atonement sacrifice you find that in Lev. 5, but is talking about the fellowship offering which is like a feast.

Okie dokie, you got me. I should have said Leviticus 5, sorry.

Abraham offered up Isaac, but that was not a fellowship offering?

However, the 'son' didn't die. And for whose sins was this sacrifice made?

Do you think the provider of the New Testament (the Holy Spirit) would allow false doctrine to be part of His inspiring words in Hebrews?

Were false prophets allowed in the OT?

Deuteronomy 13
1 If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’
3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.

Do you feel Paul also did not speak the truth: Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

How is it Paul said he got this from Jesus, when Jesus didn't mention a sacrifice, as important as you make it? Show me any part of the Romans verse from the lips of Jesus. Could it be that God is testing you to know whether you will keep His commandments and obey His voice?

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.

So, who is your sacrifice, Jesus or you? Was Jesus' 'sacrifice' not enough, and now you have to be your own sacrifice?

Or John: 1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

John didn't use the word 'sacrifice'. He used propitiation, not the same as sacrifice.

How can you trust any writer of the New Testament to get any of Christ’s words right?

Many, many people wrote to others during the same time Paul did. Do you not know it was men who added the books they thought should be included? Did you not know they even had the apocrypha included in the Bible?

If anyone's words do not say what Jesus said, you should be aware. That's why it is so important to know and understand Jesus' words first, and put them in your heart. Only Jesus has the words of life.

You say: “The sacrifice we make is not the same as Levitical sacrifices.” But you are only taking the one “offering” in Lev. 3 (which is more a butchering and cooking of meat to be consumed and not a “sacrificing” and the word “sacrifice” is not even used in Lev. 3). You are saying, here, we do make a sacrifice, so did Christ also make a sacrifice?

I may be wrong, but weren't all Levitical sacrifices burnt. What was an Levitical sacrifice to you? Was it hanging on a pagan cross? Here is what I meant by our sacrifice -

Matthew 10:39
He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Mark 8:35
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it.

Luke 9:24
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

Luke 17:33
Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

Did Jesus willingly allow Himself to be tortured, humiliated and murdered? (Does that not sound like a sacrifice?)

This is not how a sacrifice was made in the OT. No animals were tortured; they had to be unblemished.

So, when Jesus says whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it, does that mean we must be tortured and humiliated?

 

[EmSw]

No, I explained that verse. Your view totally misunderstands it.

Why not just believe what it says? We don't need your explanation.

IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS. Don't let these words come back to haunt you, FG2.

I believe what Scripture says about how to have eternal life:
Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."


Acts 11:14

14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Now that you have a part of the picture, get the whole picture.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So, it's settled. One is saved and has eternal life by believing in the Messiah.

But you don't believe Him. When He said, ' if you want to enter life, keep the commandments', you refuse to believe Him.

I said this:
"So, why can't you provide any explanation for why He went to the cross, then?"

WOW. What a dodge. OK, it's clear that you have no intention to answer my question. And no idea of why Jesus went to the cross.

You didn't explain why Jesus was led into the wilderness. Once you understand that, you will know what happened at the cross.

There was no question about why Jesus went into the wilderness, but the Bible tells us exactly why. He was not driven, as you erroneously claim, but was led by the Spirit, in order to be tempted by Satan.

Get to know your Bible, FG2.

Mark 1:12
Immediately the Spirit drove Him into the wilderness.

How is it erroneous what I claimed?

It's quite obvious that you know nothing about WHY God instituted sacrifices in the first place.

And you don't know how sacrifices are offered. Just like keeping His commandment, one must do it the way God says. No ifs, ands, or buts. Sacrificing on a pagan cross is blasphemous.

Why the stupid question? Hey 9:22 tells us why there must be the shedding of blood (sacrifice): forgiveness.

When Jesus said to forgive others, or God will not forgive you, do you shed your blood for this forgiveness? Since you don't know what blood signifies, you will be left in the dark.

It's also quite obvious that you know nothing of propitiation or atonement.

And obviously, you don't know what repentance for the forgiveness of sins means.

I never said the sacrifice gave life. Why don't you actually read my posts before making such inexcusable errors? The WAY in which Christ gives eternal life is by purchasing it for everyone and giving it to those who believe.

If the sacrifice didn't give life, why was He 'sacrificed'? Actually Jesus said the way to enter life is to keep the commandments. That passage just gives you fits, doesn't it? You can try to explain it away, but Jesus' words are life, and you can't change that.

Those with even average reading skills know that when Jesus said "which I WILL GIVE" refers to His sacrifice on the cross. By dying on the cross.

Again, you do not know what is involved in OT sacrifices. You love pagan sacrifices so much.

Was Jesus teaching cannibalism? Or what did He mean by "eating this bread"?

Cannibalism? Is this what you think it means? Learn what 'eating' and 'bread' signify. Don't go making wild guesses.

I thought your theology was the same as the Pharisees; keep the commandments.

You are something else. Jesus said to keep the commandments. Why don't you believe and obey Him?

In what way did God the Father "give the Son"? Why can't you see His giving is a sacrifice?

John 6:32
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.

Do you see how easy it is when you read and believe the word?

Please explain WHY He went to the cross. This doesn't explain why.

It wasn't as a sacrifice. You are not ready for it. If you have your mind set on a sacrifice, not even God can change your mind. Hopefully you will come to a place to where God can teach you and bring you to the truth.

Just read all the gospels and note each time the events of the crucifixion were said to be fulfillment of Scripture.

And nothing about a sacrifice.

I said this:
"Don't dodge your responsibility to explain why Jesus went to the cross."

This is just a very cheap dodge, once again.

It's not my responsibility to explain anything to you. It is your responsibility to seek the truth. Of course, you must keep His commandments, or His truth is not in you.

But you just can't seem to be able to explain why Jesus went to the cross.

From what you have posted, it seems your view is just that He let people kill Him.

Keep His commandments, and then His truth will be in you. Don't you see, if you don't keep His commandments, you do not have the truth, and have to guess what everything means.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So, if Jesus was a guilt offering, it was first for those who were witnesses of a matter and did not tell it. Does this offender sound like you, Marvin?

Yes.

So, we have four offenses, and no more, for which a guilt offering is commanded. Are you guilty of any of these offenses, Marvin?

No more are mentioned in this particular passage. But there many more such offenses in the world for which Christ died.

Yes - in my natural state I am guilty of those and many more sins.

Did you make a confession to any of these offenses before the sacrifice , Marvin?

I was not there before the foundation of the world except in the mind of God.

The Word of God who was slain before the foundation of the world was and I have always had my being only in Him.

He fulfilled all requirements for me then in the Spirit and later in the flesh.

Now we see additional requirement for the guilt offering. The offender must bring his own trespass offering, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid. The offender brings his offering to the priest to make atonement. Did you bring your own trespass offering, Marvin?

Yes - in Him I have completed all requirements.

He is the sacrifice and He is the Priest and He is in me and I in Him.

Or, if he is not able to bring a lamb, he can substitute turtledoves or pigeons. The heads must be wrung from its neck. Did you do this Marvin, if you couldn't bring a lamb?

Thank God I and my high priest brought a lamb. We need not bring anything else. Certainly not my own good works.

You on the other hand obviously have not brought a lamb and do bring your good works to commend you to God.

Now we will see how the offering is actually carried out. (As you will see, there is no cross in this offering)......................................The blood must be sprinkled on the side of the altar, not drain down a pagan cross.

Hebrews 9:11-28 "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.” And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

You really are ignorant of the way of salvation.

Or - more likely still - you are purposefully misrepresenting the truth of scripture.

IF Jesus would render Himself as a guilt offering...However, we see He wasn't rendered as a guilt offering, and He will still see His offspring, will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

"If" = "then". You really do try to distort the truth here obviously hoping that people will not read the scriptures for themselves.
"But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand." Isaiah 53:10

He did= therefore the Father did --- get it?

Now that you know what is involved in a guilt offering, you can stop pretending Jesus was sacrificed. You couldn't find where Jesus called Himself a sacrifice, so stop making it the foundation of your beliefs. Get on board with the truths Jesus gave us.

You are a fool and I won't spend any more time with you here.

I hope to see you on the other side of things. But I doubt it very much.

 

[EmSw]

Yes.

No more are mentioned in this particular passage. But there many more such offenses in the world for which Christ died.

Yes - in my natural state I am guilty of those and many more sins.

I was not there before the foundation of the world except in the mind of God.

The Word of God who was slain before the foundation of the world was and I have always had my being only in Him.

He fulfilled all requirements for me then in the Spirit and later in the flesh.

Yes - in Him I have completed all requirements.

He is the sacrifice and He is the Priest and He is in me and I in Him.

Thank God I and my high priest brought a lamb. We need not bring anything else. Certainly not my own good works.

You on the other hand obviously have not brought a lamb and do bring your good works to commend you to God.

Hebrews 9:11-28 "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.” And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

You really are ignorant of the way of salvation.

Or - more likely still - you are purposefully misrepresenting the truth of scripture.

"If" = "then". You really do try to distort the truth here obviously hoping that people will not read the scriptures for themselves.
"But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand." Isaiah 53:10

He did= therefore the Father did --- get it?

You are a fool and I won't spend any more time with you here.

I hope to see you on the other side of things. But I doubt it very much.

Pagan sacrifices were carried out on a cross; the sacrifices God's accepted were carried out on an altar, no exceptions. No sacrifices were beaten before the sacrifice, else it wasn't accepted. The sacrifice didn't render itself as a guilt offering.

You have much to answer for, Marvin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why not just believe what it says? We don't need your explanation.

IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS. Don't let these words come back to haunt you, FG2.

The whole problem is your misunderstanding of what "enter life" means. It doesn't mean to believe the gospel, or even keep the commandments.

But you don't believe Him. When He said, ' if you want to enter life, keep the commandments', you refuse to believe Him.

This is hilarious. You've not believed all the verses where Jesus said to believe in Him for eternal life.

Cannibalism? Is this what you think it means?

Hardly. But why do you keep ignoring my questions. I asked if that's what you thought it meant.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Pagan sacrifices were carried out on a cross

Where do you get your information? Dying on a cross was the Roman method of execution.

 

[EmSw]

Where do you get your information? Dying on a cross was the Roman method of execution.

The Romans were pagan. And you want to sacrifice the Divine on a pagan cross.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Pagan sacrifices were carried out on a cross; the sacrifices God's accepted were carried out on an altar, no exceptions. No sacrifices were beaten before the sacrifice, else it wasn't accepted. The sacrifice didn't render itself as a guilt offering.

You have much to answer for, Marvin.

I do not believe that the sacrifice of Christ was carried out on a cross in Heaven. There is no cross in Heaven for which the cross on earth was a copy. Nor did I or the scriptures say there is.

I do not believe that the risen Christ was beaten by the Father in Heaven before completing the true temple work of God. Nor did I or the scriptures say He was.

The only thing I have to answer for is believing that the Christ fulfilled in the presence of the Father all that was written.

I will gladly stand on and answer for those beliefs.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The Romans were pagan. And you want to sacrifice the Divine on a pagan cross.

"the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Corinthians 1:18