Bottleneck Theory vs The Flood vs The Tribe of Benjamin

[TagliatelliMonster]

Oh, so "sciencedidit.

Science explains. Science doesn't "do".

 

[AV1611VET]

The only way you can marry this phenomena with your flood myth, is by stating that god went out of his way to explicitly make all traces of said genetic bottlenecks disappear magically in all species.

I don't even come close to saying that.

But some interpret it that way.

 

[AV1611VET]

Biologically seeing, a population over 300 individuals normally should do just fine in surviving.

And I'll say it again:

It depends on how robust the survivors are, and if they are genetically fit to institute a bottleneck recovery.

A population of mere 8 individuals, while 3 are even siblings and sons of the 4th one?
That population is biologically doomed to extinction.

And I'll say it again:

It depends on how robust the survivors are, and if they are genetically fit to institute a bottleneck recovery.

And guess what?

Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

I would say that is a prophecy that they were robust and genetically fit to institute a bottleneck recovery.

Assuming the book reflects actualy reality, off course.
But we all know that it doesn't. You know it to. I don't buy for a second that you truelly believe otherwise.

I won't dignify this with a response.

 

[AV1611VET]

Hmmm...

Perhaps you should look up what the average required credentials are of people that are hired to tell oil companies where to drill next in search of oil... and what criteria they use to conclude where there is a good chance of hitting oil.

Make sure they don't get away with getting required safety checks waived as well, or you may be drilling for water in someone's pond again.

 

[JD16]

And I'll say it again:

It depends on how robust the survivors are, and if they are genetically fit to institute a bottleneck recovery.And I'll say it again:

It depends on how robust the survivors are, and if they are genetically fit to institute a bottleneck recovery.

And guess what?

Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

I would say that is a prophecy that they were robust and genetically fit to institute a bottleneck recovery.I won't dignify this with a response.

AV,

I understand your position on this matter, but at least be logically consistent? If you have doubts that a population of 300 or even 1 million has a chance of surviving, then turn around in the next sentence and state that you believe a group of 8 did repopulate the earth......it's mind boggling to say the least

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Make sure they don't get away with getting required safety checks waived as well, or you may be drilling for water in someone's pond again.

Good job trying to shift the focus of the point to something irrelevant.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I don't even come close to saying that.

I didn't say you did.

I said that going that route is "the only way" you can acknowledge the existance of the actual evidence AND marry it with a flood myth as if it actually happened.

Your only other option to hang on to the flood myth is simply denying/ignoring the facts of reality.

Both are irrational positions, but in the first one there is at least the attempt to maintain some form of internal consistency and no need to simply ignore the facts of reality.

 

[AV1611VET]

I understand your position on this matter, but at least be logically consistent?

What???

If you have doubts that a population of 300 or even 1 million has a chance of surviving,

Doubts? I have no idea what you're getting at.

I thought my OP was clear enough.

... then turn around in the next sentence and state that you believe a group of 8 did repopulate the earth......it's mind boggling to say the least

Um ... you must have me mixed up with someone else?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

And I'll say it again:

It depends on how robust the survivors are, and if they are genetically fit to institute a bottleneck recovery.

No. It's not a matter of health, fitness or robustness.

It is a matter of lack of genetic variation.
There's no way to solve a lack of genetic variation.

A group of 8 is a group of 8 and it can only carry the variation of a group of 8.
A group of 8 can not carry with it the DNA of a group of 500.

It's a group of 8. That means that there are 8 DNA strings to work with. Not 200, not 3, not a million. Just the 8.

 

[AV1611VET]

I didn't say you did.

I said that going that route is "the only way" you can acknowledge the existance of the actual evidence AND marry it with a flood myth as if it actually happened.

Your only other option to hang on to the flood myth is simply denying/ignoring the facts of reality.

Both are irrational positions, but in the first one there is at least the attempt to maintain some form of internal consistency and no need to simply ignore the facts of reality.

Feel better now?

 

[JD16]

What???Doubts? I have no idea what you're getting at.

I thought my OP was clear enough.Um ... you must have me mixed up with someone else?

Please refer to post #319 thanks

 

[AV1611VET]

No. It's not a matter of health, fitness or robustness.

Yes it is a matter of robustness.

In consequence of such population size reductions and the loss of genetic variation, the robustness of the population is reduced and its ability to survive selecting environmental changes, like climate change or a shift in available resources, is reduced.

Conversely, depending upon the causes of the bottleneck, the survivors may have been the genetically fittest individuals, hence increasing the frequency of the fitter genes within the gene pool, while shrinking it.

SOURCE

 

[AV1611VET]

Please refer to post #319 thanks

Post 319 is yours, not mine.

I'll tell you what, JD.

This is my fourth attempt at trying to understand what a bottleneck is; and if I have to take this much flack for it, that's fine.

Nuts to it.

Just don't whine if later you see me simply saying, BOTTLENECKS CAN TAKE A HIKE whenever anyone mentions one.

At least I made an attempt.

And if I don't understand it ... so be it.

You guys are always harping that we should try and learn something, and if this is what we get for it, praise God I'm an ignoramus.

I don't need to cloud my mind up with useless facts and figures and can concentrate on the Scriptures instead.

As I said before, even if I was as knowledgeable as Ken Ham or Kent Hovind, it would only mean I'd be ridiculed that much more.

Ignorance is bliss.

 

[dmmesdale]

AV,

I understand your position on this matter, but at least be logically consistent? If you have doubts that a population of 300 or even 1 million has a chance of surviving, then turn around in the next sentence and state that you believe a group of 8 did repopulate the earth......it's mind boggling to say the least

It fits with population trends. They have a general time and an amount.
Where are all the people? - creation.com
The Jews are descendants of Jacob (also called Israel). The number of Jews in the world in 1930, before the Nazi Holocaust, was estimated at 18 million. This represents a doubling in population, on average, every 156 years, or 0.44% growth per year since Jacob. Since the Flood, after which the world population was eight, the world population has doubled every 155 years, or grown at an average of 0.45% per year. There is agreement between the growth rates for the two populations. Is this just a lucky coincidence?

 

[AV1611VET]

Is this just a lucky coincidence?

This bottlenecking stuff can take a hike.

It's probably something some scientist dragged out of a closet to use against the Bible.

And to think I could have made 5000 posts in the number threads, instead of wasting my time with this garbage.

 

[JD16]

Post 319 is yours, not mine.

I'll tell you what, JD.

This is my fourth attempt at trying to understand what a bottleneck is; and if I have to take this much flack for it, that's fine.

Nuts to it.

Just don't whine if later you see me simply saying, BOTTLENECKS CAN TAKE A HIKE whenever anyone mentions one.

At least I made an attempt.

And if I don't understand it ... so be it.

You guys are always harping that we should try and learn something, and if this is what we get for it, praise God I'm an ignoramus.

I don't need to cloud my mind up with useless facts and figures, and can concentrate on the Scriptures instead.

As I said before, even if I was as knowledgeable as Ken Ham or Kent Hovind, it wouldn't only mean I'd be ridiculed that much more.

Ignorance is bliss.

Post #319 is me trying to point out your inconsistency,

Ok, in very simple terms,....if there was a flood that drop the population to a group of just 8 people,...thats a 'bottleneck event'
and from what we understand, the lost of genetics from such an event would cause the extinction of the human race due to the lack of genetic variation,...

We would have bred ourselves retarded and died out long ago. How do we know that?....From the study of genetics and what we observe in nature when a population of a certain species drop below a certain number, usually around 300 it's classified as endangered,.....should we encounter a species with just 8 left in the world,....we classified that as extinct, because its a guarantee that, that group is the last of its kind, there is no way that species could recover which such a small population.

And since we're here today, that is evidence that no such bottleneck event took place, therefore the story of Noah's Ark is impossible according to science.

 

[JD16]

It fits with population trends. They have a general time and an amount.
Where are all the people? - creation.com
The Jews are descendants of Jacob (also called Israel). The number of Jews in the world in 1930, before the Nazi Holocaust, was estimated at 18 million. This represents a doubling in population, on average, every 156 years, or 0.44% growth per year since Jacob. Since the Flood, after which the world population was eight, the world population has doubled every 155 years, or grown at an average of 0.45% per year. There is agreement between the growth rates for the two populations. Is this just a lucky coincidence?

That would be true only if the world consist of just Jewish people,....but that group of 8 resulted in not just 18 million people, but the population of earth today which is estimated to be around 7 billion, which is impossible from a group of 8.....and of course, throughout the history the number rise and fall due to wars, disasters, diseases like the plague, spanish flu, so there the growth is not linear

And of course, the genetic factor, with just 8, we are definitely headed for extinction

 

[AV1611VET]

I have submitted a request for thread closure.

 

[Truthfrees]

MOD HAT

Closed at OP request