The Literal Fall of Man

[brinny]

No, but couldn't God just send bad people to a Purgatory place instead. No one, not even the devil (I think) would want to be tortured for eternity (unless the devil and his angels are sadomasochistic, which they actually might be, come to think of it).

I've often wondered about that and i've come to the conclusion that yes, the devil and his angels are most likely sadomasochistic and every kind of twisted-ness imaginable.

The purgatory place, that you mention, would that be like a "second chance" place?

 

[John Hyperspace]

Please elaborate on what you mean by asking if all of what you posted above is "figurative"?

Figurative meaning, not literal. When you said that Jesus bruised the head of Satan at the cross, you weren't meaning that Jesus literally knocked the head of a literal snake and made a literal bruise on the snake's literal head, right? You were speaking of a figurative bruising of a figurative head of a serpent that was... figurative?

 

[expos4ever]

In a nutshell, how is the curse on the serpent considered figurative when the observation is literal, and why are we told it will continue in a literal sense into the new world if it were just a story?

I need more than a "nutshell". Please express your argument as a set of related propositions, indicating any assumptions.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Well, if we were told the swine had been cursed to wallow in the mud and will continue to wallow in the mud as part of their punishment in the new world, then one can conclude their behavior was different prior to the punishment.

Of course, it would be observable because it was literal. We would not see it if it had been a figurative punishment.




Because when it speaks of the serpent being more crafty than the beasts of the field, it was a reference to the animal nature. One can draw from the example of the donkey here. When the donkey spoke, he said his own words, guided by its own experience and observations. In other words, it wasn't forced to speak but did so of its own will when it had been granted the ability. In that sense, one can take that back to the serpent and conclude it wasn't forced to speak such things, but rather permitted it when given the ability to speak. Therefore, it also holds some guilt in its role in the fall, and likewise punished for the same actions.

Honestly, it seems to me the spirit of your question is really, "If I take this literally, how can I understand it figuratively?" and I suppose my answer would propose, you can't. If you see it literal then you're not seeing it figuratively. That's a contradiction in terms. You're basically saying "If a person understands this literally, then they don't understand it figuratively" then explaining how you understand it literally.

 

[brinny]

Figurative meaning, not literal. When you said that Jesus bruised the head of Satan at the cross, you weren't meaning that Jesus literally knocked the head of a literal snake and made a literal bruise on the snake's literal head, right? You were speaking of a figurative bruising of a figurative head of a serpent that was... figurative?

Satan, who had taken the form of a serpent, the one that had actual legs as a matter of fact, before it was cursed to crawl on its belly, in the dust of the earth. Yeah, that serpent is what Satan took the form of.

And in prophesying, God at that time used figurative language to state what was to come. It was in the spiritual realm that Satan was defeated at the shedding of Christ's blood and His death and resurrection. It is written.

Using the term "figurative" might be a bit confusing, since the defeat of Satan is quite "literal", albeit in the spiritual realm.

Sometimes it said that the Bible is "figurative" and that can sometimes morph into it is "mythical".

We wouldn't want that to happen, would we brother?

 

[expos4ever]

In a nutshell, how is the curse on the serpent considered figurative when the observation is literal, and why are we told it will continue in a literal sense into the new world if it were just a story?

Here is what I mean:

1. The account clearly has the serpent transitioning to "dust-eating" state from some other state;
2. The serpent of today still "eats dust" (moves on its belly);
3. We know that in the future when the curse is reversed......
...
10. Therefore the serpent has to be real.

I am very skeptical but please present your argument more precisely and in a more formal and structured manner.

 

[CrystalDragon]

I've often wondered about that and i've come to the conclusion that yes, the devil and his angels are most likely sadomasochistic and every kind of twisted-ness imaginable.

The purgatory place, that you mention, would that be like a "second chance" place?

I agree there about the devil and his angels there. I assume no human would want to be tortured forever though. So yeah, I'd say they should go to a Purgatory type place, where they're given punishment that actually fit the crime, rather than identical torture for really evil people and people who were good but didn't believe just for growing up in the wrong place or not seeing the Bible as anything different from ancient myth.

If people, eventually, were sorry and showed it with complete sincerity, I wouldn't have them prove it in some way (maybe placing them into a simulated situation involving seeing what their past self did and protesting against/stopping it). THEN, if they were really REALLY sincere in their repentance, and they had proven they had truly changed, THEN they would get to heaven.

If the truly vile ones were never sorry (though given eternity I think they would be eventually, given punishment), then they'd stay in Purgatory. Again though, not being eternally tortured (that's evil, people would agree if anyone else but God did it), but being punished in a way that fit the crimes.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Satan, who had taken the form of a serpent, the one that had actual legs as a matter of fact, before it was cursed to crawl on its belly, in the dust of the earth. Yeah, that serpent is what Satan took the form of.

And in prophesying, God at that time used figurative language to state what was to come. It was in the spiritual realm that Satan was defeated at the shedding of Christ's blood and His death and resurrection. It is written.

Using the term "figurative" might be a bit confusing, since the defeat of Satan is quite "literal", albeit in the spiritual realm.

Sometimes it said that the Bible is "figurative" and that can sometimes morph into it is "mythical".

We wouldn't want that to happen, would we brother?

It never said Satan was the serpent. The evidence of Genesis stated it was just a serpent and nothing more.

 

[HeatRamosHidden]

The literal Fall of Man? We're we all Winged Monkies before being kicked out of Heaven? How did we survive the Literal Fall Of Man?

 

[brinny]

I agree there about the devil and his angels there. I assume no human would want to be tortured forever though. So yeah, I'd say they should go to a Purgatory type place, where they're given punishment that actually fit the crime, rather than identical torture for really evil people and people who were good but didn't believe just for growing up in the wrong place or not seeing the Bible as anything different from ancient myth.

If people, eventually, were sorry and showed it with complete sincerity, I wouldn't have them prove it in some way (maybe placing them into a simulated situation involving seeing what their past self did and protesting against/stopping it). THEN, if they were really REALLY sincere in their repentance, and they had proven they had truly changed, THEN they would get to heaven.

If the truly vile ones were never sorry (though given eternity I think they would be eventually, given punishment), then they'd stay in Purgatory. Again though, not being eternally tortured (that's evil, people would agree if anyone else but God did it), but being punished in a way that fit the crimes.

You bring up a good point, and that is about the urgency of all of this. No one knows what day or hour they will die. THat's why it is written that NOW is the time for repentance, TODAY is the day of salvation. That is why i pray for these mixed up celebrities who need it desperately. So many die tragic, unexpected deaths. I also pray for people the world over. I find it tragic that anyone dies in such a forlorn and lost condition.

I don't want anyone to join the devil and his angels in that horror of a place either.

 

[brinny]

The literal Fall of Man? We're we all Winged Monkies before being kicked out of Heaven? How did we survive the Literal Fall Of Man?

Isn't that what the entire Bible, from Genesis through Revelation, is about brother?

 

[CrystalDragon]

You bring up a good point, and that is about the urgency of all of this. No one knows what day or hour they will die. THat's why it is written that NOW is the time for repentance, TODAY is the day of salvation. That is why i pray for these mixed up celebrities who need it desperately. So many die tragic, unexpected deaths. I also pray for people the world over. I find it tragic that anyone dies in such a forlorn and lost condition.

I don't want anyone to join the devil and his angels in that horror of a place either.

But they wouldn't if God didn't send them there in the first place—I feel like the scenario I described is more fair, just, and loving.

 

[brinny]

But they wouldn't if God didn't send them there in the first place—I feel like the scenario I described is more fair, just, and loving.

God did what you describe already, in sending His only begotten Son to die in our place.

Was that not loving or just enough?

 

[HeatRamosHidden]

Joking aside, the Literal Fall of Man, isn't that we fell, we were cast out.

 

[CrystalDragon]

God did what you describe already, in sending His only begotten Son to die in our place.

Was that not loving or just enough?

God didn't need to send Jesus to die for us. Why did forgiveness require a blood sacrifice? It was that way for war gods (come to think of it Yahweh was the name of a Canaanite war god...)

 

[brinny]

God didn't need to send Jesus to die for us. Why did forgiveness require a blood sacrifice? It was that way for war gods (come to think of it Yahweh was the name of a Canaanite war god...)

That's how serious sin is. It required a seriously perfect, and innocent Sacrifice to take our place.

The bottom line is that Jesus did not stay "dead", but arose, because He WAS perfect, spotless, and without sin. He is the RISEN Christ.

God knew exactly what was required and what He was doing.

 

[CrystalDragon]

That's how serious sin is. It required a seriously perfect, and innocent Sacrifice to take our place.

The bottom line is that Jesus did not stay "dead", but arose, because He WAS perfect, spotless, and without sin. He is the RISEN Christ.

God knew exactly what was required and what He was doing.

I don't think you get it, WHY did it require a blood sacrifice? That seems more like an "angry tribal war god" thing than an "all-loving creator God" thing.

 

[brinny]

I don't think you get it, WHY did it require a blood sacrifice? That seems more like an "angry tribal war god" thing than an "all-loving creator God" thing.

Are you thinking that God was "blood-thirsty" regarding His Son shedding His blood on the cross?

 

[CrystalDragon]

Are you thinking that God was "blood-thirsty" regarding His Son shedding His blood on the cross?

Well he seemed to be that way in the Old Testament with the whole thing about rules for animal sacrifices as "sin offerings" and the smell of burnt flesh being "an aroma pleasing to the Lord". Why couldn't there have been another way, something that didn't involve Jesus dying? Why does it seem like that "blood must be spilled to forgive" thing?

 

[Ron Gurley]

Question: The Literal "Fall" of Man? (=~"original sin"?)
aka
The result of the Disobedience of A&E per Genesis account?

ACTUAL ...NOT FIGURATIVE!...POINTS 1-4 = Gen. 3:22-24
1. no longer walked and talked with God in peace...a SIN barrier
2. Cast from Eden
3. Barred from partaking of the "tree of life" by angels
4. Although termed a curse, God DISCIPLINED!
a. Man~Gen. 3:17-19...a CHANGE in HIM + environment outside Eden
b. Woman ~Gen. 3:16...a CHANGE in HER outside Eden
c. Serpent ~=devil...Gen. 3:14-15...an partially unfulfilled PROPHECY!
The devil was defeated at the Cross by Jesus, but he remains alive and kicking.