Should Genesis be taken literally?

[-57]

In order to understand sin you have to understand free will. We are given freedom of choice. If we did not have this freedom then we would be slaves.

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Romans 8

That still didn't explain where our sin nature came from.

 

[Speedwell]

That still didn't explain where our sin nature came from.

What is the difference between being a sinner and having a "sin nature?"

 

[-57]

Is this what really happened?

No. It's not what the bible teaches us.

 

[-57]

What is the difference between being a sinner and having a "sin nature?"

Why can't you simply answer the question?

 

[Speedwell]

Why can't you simply answer the question?

I did. Post 698.

 

[-57]

Then we are told that they were not allowed to eat from the tree of life. We do not hear about the tree or life until Rev 22: "On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life,and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Adam was not only sent to till the ground, we know he was the first to till the ground. We are told in Rev 2:5 "there was not a man to till the ground." Now the ground was cursed and he would have to deal with thorns and thistles. There were no weeds in the garden of Eden but now He was going to have to deal with weeds.

Genesis 2:9 mentions the tree of life. Gen 2:16 tells us that they could eat from the tree of life.

15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.

The tree of life would have been amongst the "any tree"

 

[-57]

Refuse? I have answered you many times in various forums over the years.

We sin because at some point we acquired the knowledge of good and evil and the ability to contemplate our own mortality--which the other creatures do not possess--either by eating a piece of magic fruit or in some other fashion and thus sin and death came into the world.

Now you can go back to pretending I have never answered the question.

Where/when/how.... in human history did we acquire the knowledge of good and evil?

 

[Speedwell]

Where/when/how.... in human history did we acquire the knowledge of good and evil?

Don't know. What's the difference between being a sinner and having a "sin nature?"

 

[-57]

Don't know. What's the difference between being a sinner and having a "sin nature?"

Have you never read Genesis? It answers the question that you seem to not know the answer to.

 

[HenryM]

Evolution is not equal to science, of course, in the same way that squares are not equal to rectangles; evolution is certainly a secure part of science, and your denials will not remove it.

Get a grip on some dictionary, to learn what is science. Hint - it's not theorising about stuff.

 

[JacksBratt]

Then we are told that they were not allowed to eat from the tree of life. We do not hear about the tree or life until Rev 22: "On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life,and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Adam was not only sent to till the ground, we know he was the first to till the ground. We are told in Rev 2:5 "there was not a man to till the ground." Now the ground was cursed and he would have to deal with thorns and thistles. There were no weeds in the garden of Eden but now He was going to have to deal with weeds.

Actually the tree of life is mentioned in Genesis... twice.

Genesis 2:8-9

The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


Genesis 3:22-24

Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

[JacksBratt]

Don't know. What's the difference between being a sinner and having a "sin nature?"

We all have a sin nature. As soon as we acted on it, we became a sinner.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Get a grip on some dictionary, to learn what is science. Hint - it's not theorising about stuff.

You never heard of Einstein's theory of relativity? Of Newton's theory of gravitation? Information theory? Theory of thermodynamics? Heliocentrism theory? Germ theory of disease?

You've got to stop arguing about words and how to use words, and start thinking about evidence and the implications of evidence if you want to be effective in discussing science.

 

[JacksBratt]

Is this what really happened?

It was a dark and stormy night. Lucifer, enjoying the destructive actions of the storm, could almost forget the pain of his banishment from the regions of light to this God-forsaken planet. It was a lot better than being cast into hell. Fortunate was he to possess the stewardship title to this place, issued before the unfortunate incident that the so-called good angels called his rebellion. Few and meager were the spoils left him from before his fall. He did have, still, an invitation to convene with the other sons of God at a far future time in heaven, and he was relishing how his appearance there would cause general consternation. It would be good to get off this planet for a moment at least . . .

Lucifer's musings were interrupted by a demonic visitation.

"Greetings, excellent son of the dawn, lord of our light, wisdom of the world, chief of the powers of the air, great dragon", muttered a craven Beelzebub, rushing through the required honorifics. "We have stumbled upon a region on this planet we are not allowed to enter".

"WHAT"? roared the fallen lord of this earth. "That's contrary to my entitlement! Show me the place!"

In a moment, Lucifer and Beelzebub were there. Sure enough, guardian angels barred them from going past a hedge that surrounded the garden of Eden. Every time they tried to force their way in, they were turned back.

Nursing his hurts, Lucifer pondered the irony; he had been so proud when Divine Omniscience had instructed him to share his new, unheard of ideas about defense and attack with Michael back in his days before his banishment. Now his own lessons - Michael knew everything about war that he did - were being turned against him.

He decided to try reasonable debate.

"Why, Michael, are you hindering me from walking on this part of my lawful estate?" he bawled out.

"Oh, its the universal law of justice. You damned and unlawful spirits are not allowed to deal with a free willed creature who bears the image of God."

"WHAT?" roared Lucifer. "That's a blatant violation of my contractural rights to this place! Don't you know I'm the sole proprietor here? You can't bring one of those half breed animal - spirit things to MY domain!"

"Silly demon", sniffed Michael, "Nobody imported this creature here, he evolved naturally, and therefore is rightfully here on his own. And his rights to an uncontaminated spiritual bond with God trump your rights to the place. "

Lucifer looked around, abashed. Sure enough, while he had been brooding for the past 65 million years, ever since he first expressed his rage on the life of this planet on his arrival, hominids had evolved a surprising amount of intelligence. There were lots of them all over the middle east and Africa, but none had any souls . . . yet.

He had spent much time, recently, admiring beetles. Such elegant, endlessly beautiful forms . . . They had been a distraction all along, to keep him from noticing the hominids!

"This man", continued Michael, "started thinking there must be a creator and God. This automatically entitled him to complete protection from such as you and we made this garden for him. He has become an immortal soul. He has a wife now, taken from his own flesh, they two are going to reproduce, enlarge the garden, awaken to understanding eternity their brothers and sisters after the flesh, and when there is no place left on earth for you and your ilk, you will go to . . . . "

He merely pointed in the extra dimensional direction to the place prepared for Lucifer and his followers. No more needed to be said.

Lucifer quailed. His doom was sure. He remembered a prophecy that had been made - that from the earth itself a living being would come that would redeem the planet from his rule and cast him out to his prepared destiny. Not that he was happy now, he definately wanted to postpone such an event. This monstrous improper blend of animal and spirit - if he merely started sharing his ideas of eternity, God, the spiritual realm . . . the other homo sapiens would awaken to become immortal souls! The whole planet could become infested with enough spiritually able residents to banish him from his only refuge! As for the time it would take - in just a hundred generations, even less, spiritual humanity could fill the globe, leaving him no place to roam! Clearly his time was short.

Back at his lair, he brooded. So long ago, it seemed an eternity now, but he clearly remembered the committee meeting the holy angels had devoted to the creation of this planet. It had taken them six days to design the world and its life forms, how it would be, and they had set up the initial conditions to make them come about through the natural operation of God's laws. As part of the divine allocation of angelic responsibilities, the earth had been assigned to him. When he had been cast out of heaven, the assignment was still valid, because it had been an eternal assignement. And now . . . it must not escape him!

Finally Lucifer came up with a plan. If he could not enter Eden directly, he could enter Eden, perhaps, by remote control. And if even an angel such as myself can rebel, perhaps the new creature - what was its name? Adam? could be enduced to rebel. Maybe even then could be remotely controlled!

He tried remote control on various species, and found it could be accomplished. Soon, a nearby tree snake wandered across the hedge about Eden and began to have conversation with the inhabitants. The plan was simple - get them to sin. Of course, since this naieve couple had all their needs met, were perfectly happy, it was a minor difficulty to even figure out how they COULD sin. They didn't even seem to have been given any moral guidance he could use to coax them to rebel with.

Meanwhile, a truly terrible set of events was taking place. The couple was being educated. Fruit had been prepared with special nerve pattern altering compounds . . . they only had to eat a fruit and learn. Already they had learned a lot about language, mathematics, how to till the ground and raise crops, how to domesticate animals . . . . it wouldn't be long before the present boundaries of Eden would be enlarged or bypasssed.

Then one day Eve happened to mention something about a certain tree . . . that carried the knowledge of good and evil. But it wasn't time to eat it yet.

What if they learned it out of sequence?

LOL nope.. but it would make a great movie and be just as close to the truth as the "Noah" movie from 2014.....Which is properly denoted as Fantasy/Drama.

Again, the work of the enemy. Take a biblical event, twist it all up, take out the important parts, keep enough of the original plot for the people to recognize it as Biblical then add just enough lies to keep them from the core principals.

It's all blasphemy.

 

[AnnaliseH]

I have a question for those of you who base your interpretation of Genesis on Apostolic Tradition.

You believe that your beliefs were handed down to you directly from the original Apostles, passed along from generation to generation of successor Apostles. Correct?

 

[AnnaliseH]

Another quote for you. This time from Pierre-Paul Grasse (University of Paris and past President, French Acadamie des Sciences) in Evolution of Living Organisms, Academic Press, New York, 1977, pg. 88

Some contemporary biologists, as soon as they observe a mutation, talk about evolution. They are implicitly supporting the following syllogism: mutations are the only evolutionary variations, all living beings undergo mutations, therefore all living beings evolve.
The logical scheme is, however, unacceptable: first, because its major premise is neither obvious nor general; second, because its conclusion does not agree with the facts. No matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of evolution.
We add that it would be all too easy to object that mutations have no evolutionary effect because they are eliminated by natural selection. Lethal mutations (the worst kind) are effectively eliminated, but others persist as alleles. The human species provides a great many examples of this, e.g., the color of the eyes, the shape of the auricle, dermatoglyphics, the color and texture of the hair, the pigmentation of the skin. Mutants are present within every population, from bacteria to man. There can beno doubt about it. But for the evolutionist, the essential lies elsewhere: in the fact that mutations do not coincide with evolution.

Emphasis in bold added by me.

 

[HenryM]

You never heard of Einstein's theory of relativity? Of Newton's theory of gravitation? Information theory? Theory of thermodynamics? Heliocentrism theory? Germ theory of disease?

You've got to stop arguing about words and how to use words, and start thinking about evidence and the implications of evidence if you want to be effective in discussing science.

You sure know how to pick them. Evolution. Heliocentrism. Germs. Relativity. When curtain falls, all four (my take) will be exposed. First two absolutely, if I may say so.

Thankfully, there's Newton law of gravity (not theory) that's actually useful for real world applications.

What is universally accepted scientific law (not theory), expressed in a formula, that's discovered within macro evolution, and that's now used in science? Come to think of it, maybe there is some, we are far off in the end times, nothing would surprise me.

 

[joshua 1 9]

That still didn't explain where our sin nature came from.

What do you mean by sin nature? Are you referring to the works of the flesh?

Galatians 5:19-21King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Another quote for you. This time from Pierre-Paul Grasse (University of Paris and past President, French Acadamie des Sciences) in Evolution of Living Organisms, Academic Press, New York, 1977, pg. 88

Some contemporary biologists, as soon as they observe a mutation, talk about evolution. They are implicitly supporting the following syllogism: mutations are the only evolutionary variations, all living beings undergo mutations, therefore all living beings evolve.
The logical scheme is, however, unacceptable: first, because its major premise is neither obvious nor general; second, because its conclusion does not agree with the facts. No matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of evolution.
We add that it would be all too easy to object that mutations have no evolutionary effect because they are eliminated by natural selection. Lethal mutations (the worst kind) are effectively eliminated, but others persist as alleles. The human species provides a great many examples of this, e.g., the color of the eyes, the shape of the auricle, dermatoglyphics, the color and texture of the hair, the pigmentation of the skin. Mutants are present within every population, from bacteria to man. There can beno doubt about it. But for the evolutionist, the essential lies elsewhere: in the fact that mutations do not coincide with evolution.

Emphasis in bold added by me.

mere words. And they are wrong.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

You sure know how to pick them. Evolution. Heliocentrism. Germs. Relativity. When curtain falls, all four (my take) will be exposed. First two absolutely, if I may say so.

Thankfully, there's Newton law of gravity (not theory) that's actually useful for real world applications.

What is universally accepted scientific law (not theory), expressed in a formula, that's discovered within macro evolution, and that's now used in science? Come to think of it, maybe there is some, we are far off in the end times, nothing would surprise me.

Well, you don't believe germs make us sick, you don't believe the earth orbits the sun, and you don't believe e=mc^2.

That is consistent with rejecting evolution as well.

Thanks for your frank admissions.

I'm not sure why you don't believe the earth orbits the sun while accepting Newton's gravitational theory, but . . . . . it doesn't matter. It's certainly nothing to do with actual evidence.