Should Genesis be taken literally?

[expos4ever]

They teach it in all the world, it is called Genesis.

Really? Where, exactly in Genesis are you taught to misrepresent science (I.e. evolution) as religion?

 

[expos4ever]

It seems as though creationists have developed an entire lexicon of demonizing rhetoric in the apparent belief that this will magically cause the mountain of evidence for evolution to evaporate.

 

[rjs330]

You just contradicted your previous post.

It's the one that you posted just before the one I quoted.

 

[rjs330]

And I have never disputed it.I have never disputed the divine inspiration and authority of scriptureSelf-serving apologetics. Never mind, I'm happy to be an heretic, a liar, a false teacher, a Bible-hater and a Christ denier. If you people thought I was a "real" Christian I would start worrying about whether I was right with the Lord.

C'mon speed you are not being accurate here. You often use the excuse of how literal Genesis was not taught or believed by the early church or the church fathers. We've also had conversations concerning how other literary works can be used to show how Scripture doesn't mean what it says. You constantly state that the church never believed in the plenary verbal etc inspiration of Scripture. Then when I point out that you are incorrect in that you claim you never said that. You certainly have at minimum implied the things above. Jesus and the apostles were the earliest fathers and used Scripture as the ONLY authority and made enough statements that it was NOT allegory but actual events. No where do they EVER hint at other literature nor do they EVER hint that Genesis is not factual actual history. You still cannot show it. You cannot show how they did not believe in Sola Scriptura. There is no evidence of that.

 

[rjs330]

And I have never disputed it.I have never disputed the divine inspiration and authority of scriptureSelf-serving apologetics. Never mind, I'm happy to be an heretic, a liar, a false teacher, a Bible-hater and a Christ denier. If you people thought I was a "real" Christian I would start worrying about whether I was right with the Lord.

Well then you better start questioning yourself because I do believe you are a real Christian. But you also have a false creations doctrine that has no scriptural support. But that doesn't make you an unbeliever. There were believers in Bible times that had false doctrines also, but Paul and the apostles never called them unbelievers. It was only when the doctrines started leading people away from Christ that he really came down that hard. Otherwise and the apostles just tried to straighten the people out on the doctrinal issue.

 

[The Times]

Really? Where, exactly in Genesis are you taught to misrepresent science (I.e. evolution) as religion?

Evilution is not science. Evolution is man's imagination of a new found religion that is beyond the definition and measurements of science. Yes, I would agree to a certain extent that it is pseudo science at best and this leads me to believe that it is no different to the pundants who pushed alchemy in their days.

The religion of alchemy and evolution are pseudo sciences that I call science fiction. These pseudo sciences are good for National geographic Hollywood fairy tail entertainment stories, with the common theme as follows.....

Many many billions of years, there was a rock and out of that rock life began and it became a whale, after many death cycle efforts, then the whale grew legs and walked on land and from then four legged beasts evolved after millions of death cycles and then monkey magic evolved who grew to stand up on this two feet, like a primordial man and then through many many millions of death cycles life overcame death...... yawn.......

In an ecosystem there is interdependent connections that if one is not present the other can not proceed even if millions of hit and miss trials existed. It is like trying to drive a car, without going to apply for a licence, the effort is in vain because you will not continue very far before you find a huge obstacle thrown in your way. Nature has preventative measures that prevent occurances of diseases and contamination of environment by a predetermined requirement of X, Y and Z being met before A can exist.

Just like there are laws for driving a car, called road rules, the macro environment operates by consistent laws, that will prevent A from existing regardless of trials in the billions, because the preventative measures will annihilate any foreign entity wanting to find its way into the local micro environment.

We see evidence every where such preventative measures are in place, that prevent runaway endemic bacteria and contaminants from forming a chemical outcome that produces A to then threaten X, Y and Z

Evolution is a psuedo science fairy tale religion that is no different to the gold and poison drinkers of alchemy. Please don't drink the poison of evolution and don't push it on defenseless children by brainwashing them into a warped reality that is absent of evidence.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

People that study scripture know of the characteristics of say, a parable, poem, psalm and, in revelations, there are complex metaphors.

One of the characteristics of a literal statement is, it turns out to be either true or false

If a statement turns out to be false, then it did not come from God.

If your literal interpretations lead you to believe the earth is only about 6000 years old and each species was created seperately without evolution, then your interpretations are false. Because we know, now, the earth is billions of years in age and all earthly life came from a single ancestral source through evolution.

Your faith, then, is proven wrong.

Your only choice, in order to retain a belief in the Bible that is grounded in reality as we know it, is to accept the Genesis account as true in the sense of a parable, or a metaphor, or as an allegory . . . call it what you will.

Otherwise, you force the scriptures to be false, and I for one choose not to do that, and I implore you to also not do that.

 

[The Times]

Many pharmaceutical and wicked men looking to make money from mass vaccinations in Africa and elsewhere have tried in vain to kick start an epidemic, through swine flu, mad cows and other forms of man made germ warefare against the micro and macro environment and they have observed many safeguards that prevents the germ from living past its expected survival. In fact without vaccination you will see that the disease, such as the black plague and others die out because the living earth's preventative measures are in place that stops these wild fires from spreading andc taking over the ecosysyem.

The Evolutionist must not also prove their species theory, which should really be defined as kind, because after all the bible in Genesis that every creature was made after their KIND.

The evolutionist must also prove that there existed different laws that given the observable measured science, which allowed a foreign lifeform to evolve. They must show evidence that contradict the very laws that govern our ecosystem and must therefore prove on every occassion why the preventative measures did not kick in or were none existent to hault that foreign lifeform in its place. Evolutionist must show evidence to discredit the observable science today that clearly shows throughout history and without the availability of modern medicine, how certain foreign bacteria, contaminants were prevented from spreading elsewhere in the ecosysyem, considering that it required only one segment of the population that didn't follow the protocol for the foreign lifeform, in order for it to get out into the environment and be a permanent enemy to the ecosysyem.

Take for example the black plague, why did it stop and why does it not exist in the natural environment. Surely they must have missed one or two rodents.

You see our ecosystem macro and micro has counterneasures by intelligent design that prevents the annihilation of man. The Genesis account has the almighty God claiming to do it the way he said so. So believe God and count man as a fool that he has historically being proven to be time after time again.

 

[The Times]

If we have forced vaccinations, then be very concerned that there is a depopulation agenda out to kill you.

No threat is beyond the abilities of the intelligent designers preventative and predictive measures to hault it its tracks. There is no pandemic and the only thing that media will do is to lie to all and decieve governments to make the vaccinations mandatory. This world is a illusionary reality constructed by the lamestream fake news media, that is controlled by those evil and sinister men and women, who think that the world is rightfully theirs and that they own you and are entitled to say whether you live or die.

We know that Evilution is their offspring child abd that natural selection is nothing more than an atheistic world view and from Stalin to Marxist pundants they all push this lie down everyone's throat. They are the money men that have bought out corupt scientists who would do and say anything to get million dollar grants.

We have to accept that man is corrupted and God is Holy and righteous and so the question is why would Christians believe man over and above God's Genesis account?

Don't be fooled, there is no evolution of species, it is a lie.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

But that doesn't answer the question...because you said some things were instant and others were not...how can you decide from what is written in scripture what is what?

We all stopped deciding from scripture what was literally true or not when we accepted the findings of science that the earth's rotation is the cause of day and night, and not really the sun moving across the sky.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

If we have forced vaccinations, then be very concerned that there is a depopulation agenda out to kill you.

No threat is beyond the abilities of the intelligent designers preventative and predictive measures to hault it its tracks. There is no pandemic and the only thing that media will do is to lie to all and decieve governments to make the vaccinations mandatory. This world is a illusionary reality constructed by the lamestream fake news media, that is controlled by those evil and sinister men and women, who think that the world is rightfully theirs and that they own you and are entitled to say whether you live or die.

We know that Evilution is their offspring child abd that natural selection is nothing more than an atheistic world view and from Stalin to Marxist pundants they all push this lie down everyone's throat. They are the money men that have bought out corupt scientists who would do and say anything to get million dollar grants.

We have to accept that man is corrupted and God is Holy and righteous and so the question is why would Christians believe man over and above God's Genesis account?

Don't be fooled, there is no evolution of species, it is a lie.

Vaccinations prevent disease, they don't foster depopulation.
Many media tell the truth, not all of them lie
This world is real, God's creation is a real creation
God is in ultimate control
Evolution is proven to be true (in the layman's use of the word "proven")
The opposition to evolution is a lie of Satan, doing Satan's intended work of driving people away from believing in Jesus because of a false link between belief in Jesus and denying evolution.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Mods, if this isn't in the right section please move, I wasn't sure where the best place for this discussion would be, as this has more to do with the entire book and not only creation.

Genesis is the history of Israel's roots...most believe Moses to be the author of the book, and if we go by the chronology from Genesis to Exodus, he wouldn't have been born until a couple thousand years after the account of Adam. Prior to this, these stories would have been handed down through oral tradition.

When stories are told from one generation to the next things change. Some things may be added, others taken away...things become embellished...that's just how it is. It doesn't mean that anyone is lying, necessarily, just that what we hear as a child and what we teach to our children about a subject may change slightly based on our recollection. And then there are those that like to add their own spin to make things more interesting, and it sticks...

A good, more modern example of this would be the story of Jesse James...many accounts made him out to be a Robin Hood of his day, only stealing from the rich and helping the poor...after the Civil War there was a lot of distrust in this country, and people wanted a hero they found him in this notorious outlaw...the truth of the matter was he was your typical run of the mill thief...albeit a very good one...but stories were made up about him in newspapers, books and songs...and now, 140 years later, there are those that think he was, as the "The Ballad of Jesse James" said, "a friend to the poor that would never have a brother suffer pain." In this instance, of course, we can look back at actual accounts from the day and easily put these claims to rest.

So, is it possible that this is what happened with Genesis? That after years of oral tradition some of the "facts" changed? I'm not saying this as a dig at creationism, or anything like that. Nor am I saying that there is no truth to be found in Genesis...I believe it paints a beautiful picture of creation, of God's desire to have a relationship with His people, of man's biggest obstacle to overcome being his sinful nature, and how the foundation was being laid for the Christ.

I don't read Genesis literally. I think it's allegory.

 

[Speedwell]

C'mon speed you are not being accurate here. You often use the excuse of how literal Genesis was not taught or believed by the early church or the church fathers.

I think you have missed the point. I have always maintained that the early church (and perhaps the majority of Churches worldwide today) taught that Genesis was historic. It is clear, for example, that Paul thought the Bible stories he used in his preaching were historic. What I don't see in the early church is the teaching that either Genesis is 100% accurate literal history or you're an evil lying heretic--like I do from modern creationists and as we have seen in this very thread. I am sure you have seen St. Augustine's famous remarks remarks on Genesis.
Augustine of Hippo on the Literal Meaning of Genesis
Can you really read that and read the posts of a typical modern creationist like our colleague KWCrazy and tell me with a straight face that the early Church taught the same thing as creationists do now?

We've also had conversations concerning how other literary works can be used to show how Scripture doesn't mean what it says.

We have had fruitless conversations about how to use extra-biblical works to learn what kind of history it is--but you, like other creationists, think there is only one kind, and if I try to make that point you merely assume that I am trying to make Genesis into allegory to fit evolution into it and, like other creationists, you react accordingly. Forgetting about evolution for a minute (as if a creationist could ever do that) historiography is a fascinating subject which discusses the different ways in which historical narratives have been written in the past. But no, creationists don't buy it.

You constantly state that the church never believed in the plenary verbal etc inspiration of Scripture. Then when I point out that you are incorrect in that you claim you never said that.

You must have been talking to somebody else, because I've always said that and I'm saying the same thing now.

You certainly have at minimum implied the things above.

Or you have inferred them.

Jesus and the apostles were the earliest fathers and used Scripture as the ONLY authority and made enough statements that it was NOT allegory but actual events.

Again with the false dichotomy.

No where do they EVER hint at other literature...

They knew how history was written in their day. We have to study extra-biblical literature to help us find out what that was.

nor do they EVER hint that Genesis is not factual actual history.

You're baffling me with that accurate use of historiographical terminology.

You cannot show how they did not believe in Sola Scriptura. There is no evidence of that.

Then where did the Church get it's authority? Why was the term Apostolic Tradition even coined?

 

[expos4ever]

Evilution is not science.

To say this is to either lie or demonstrate ignorance. Nobody - no one - outside of the creationist camp will agree with this. While forums like these offer the potential for constructive discourse, the freedom for anyone to post whatever they want (as long as they do not abuse forum rules) allows for the possibility of the most egregious nonsense to be aired. Fair enough - people should have the right to express their views no matter how ill-informed and outright wacky they may be.

But if people are going to be allowed to lie or to demonstrate staggering ignorance, those who know better should also have the right to call them on this.

Many many billions of years, there was a rock and out of that rock life began....

The theory of evolution does not deal with the very origins of life, so your statement here is misleading.

 

[expos4ever]

I don't read Genesis literally. I think it's allegory.

How's it going my friend from Kazakhstan? It's going down to below -35 with the wind-chill overnight here in eastern Canada. How is the weather over there. We are not going to fight over the evolution thing since it appears we have the same views about Genesis.

 

[Code Phox]

Interesting question and it could relate to the whole book.. There are parts that I struggle with even currently. However, I guess I run on faith they are true. I have experienced to much for me to be convinced there is a God and he would be powerful enough to create something like the bible. The Bible is just a collection of testimonies with many authors. I have a testimony, but it's not important enough to be in the book as the concept is already there.. if I were to add, so could anyone and it would be corruptible, maybe?

Anyways, I trust the meaning. I have learned lots about the talking serpent. How we were created. Want an example?
Adam was made from a pile of dust. The dust is actually a collection of all the molecules of your body being sucked out of the ground and placed in the correct position to make a workable/functioning body. At the time, the environment was very moist as the garden was designed to water itself. What are you made out of? Like 50%+ water... God then breathed into us, placing a miracle into an empty shell. Like a body makes clothes move, your soul moves your thoughts and body. You an advanced molecular machinery known as biologo.

 

[rjs330]

I think you have missed the point. I have always maintained that the early church (and perhaps the majority of Churches worldwide today) taught that Genesis was historic. It is clear, for example, that Paul thought the Bible stories he used in his preaching were historic. What I don't see in the early church is the teaching that either Genesis is 100% accurate literal history or you're an evil lying heretic--like I do from modern creationists and as we have seen in this very thread. I am sure you have seen St. Augustine's famous remarks remarks on Genesis.
Augustine of Hippo on the Literal Meaning of Genesis
Can you really read that and read the posts of a typical modern creationist like our colleague KWCrazy and tell me with a straight face that the early Church taught the same thing as creationists do now? We have had fruitless conversations about how to use extra-biblical works to learn what kind of history it is--but you, like other creationists, think there is only one kind, and if I try to make that point you merely assume that I am trying to make Genesis into allegory to fit evolution into it and, like other creationists, you react accordingly. Forgetting about evolution for a minute (as if a creationist could ever do that) historiography is a fascinating subject which discusses the different ways in which historical narratives have been written in the past. But no, creationists don't buy it. You must have been talking to somebody else, because I've always said that and I'm saying the same thing now. Or you have inferred them. Again with the false dichotomy.They knew how history was written in their day. We have to study extra-biblical literature to help us find out what that was.You're baffling me with that accurate use of historiographical terminology.
Then where did the Church get it's authority? Why was the term Apostolic Tradition even coined?

So you do believe that the early church did believe in the verbal plenary etc inspiration of Scripture? Hmm.. it didn't sound like it from the many discussions we've had. It's interesting you mention the kind of history. There are only three options to choose from. Either it is allegory and the events never actually occurred or its actual history and the events occurred exactly as stated or its false history with perhaps real people but a made up stories surrounding them. Like Washington and the cherry tree. There isn't anything else. The thing is you need some evidence that it wasn't actual history and everything is false. And there isn't any.

 

[Code Phox]

Vaccinations prevent disease, they don't foster depopulation.
Many media tell the truth, not all of them lie
This world is real, God's creation is a real creation
God is in ultimate control
Evolution is proven to be true (in the layman's use of the word "proven")
The opposition to evolution is a lie of Satan, doing Satan's intended work of driving people away from believing in Jesus because of a false link between belief in Jesus and denying evolution.

Do you really believe in Evolution?

 

[cre8id]

Abraham was born, raised and educated in the city of Ur. He had the best education you could get in his day and the people of UR were very advanced at that time in science. Just like Moses as the adopted son of a pharaoh had the best education you could get in Egypt at the time and he had full access to the library there at the time. Also Moses studied religion under his father in law Jethro a priest of Midian. We know that Abraham had contact with melchizedek. Jesus is considered a priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Just a note about Melchizedek, some speculate that Shem may have actually been Melchizedek. According to some Jewish non-biblical writings, Shem helped raise and educate Abraham... but, again, that is mostly speculation not based on anything solid from the Bible itself.

 

[The Times]

Vaccinations prevent disease, they don't foster depopulation.
Many media tell the truth, not all of them lie
This world is real, God's creation is a real creation
God is in ultimate control
Evolution is proven to be true (in the layman's use of the word "proven")
The opposition to evolution is a lie of Satan, doing Satan's intended work of driving people away from believing in Jesus because of a false link between belief in Jesus and denying evolution.

The vaccinations to prevent outbreaks is what I was talking about. I vaccinate my children for known diseases. God has used man and gave him increasing of knowledge to be for the betterment of man.

Evolution is not a science, evolution like alchemy is psuedo science that has absolutely no benefit to man. On the other hand God would create an environment to sustain and to benefit man.

Evolution has no benefits and is an unproven psuedo science theory that needs to be believed on faith, rather than observable facts.

Evolution advocates try to attach as many scientific terms to the evolution theory in an effort to deceptively try to legitimize it as scientific. Listen guys you can say the earth is flat and use scientific terms until the cows come home, however it is still NOT science.

The God of the Bible is a just and loving God, he doesn't resort to your problematic views of a world that came about out of chaos. Evolution depends on chaotic events involving many hits and misses and misery associated from premature death.

The God of the Bible as documented in Genesis is a loving God who is in ultimate control of his creation and creates things perfect the first time, without resorting to a hit and miss affair.

God doesn't use the formulae order out of chaos, this concept is Luciferean and it is the devil and his followers who would push the idea order out of chaos.

The trick of creating chaos and then seizing power under the pretense of putting things back in order is a tried and true method of deception and manipulation. It's the meaning behind the Latin motto: ORDO AB CHAO meaning ORDER OUT OF CHAOS.

It is Satan that promotes the idea order out of chaos. It is Satan behind EVIL-ution.