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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry.
In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Have it occurred to you that maybe it's not for us to know the details? What's certainly for us is to believe in God. There is a reason why pride is a sin.
I could see Adam, reaching at that apple, and saying, "You know, I agree with God, but I just want to know the details..."
The difference there being that God commanded Adam to not eat the fruit of that particular tree...there is no commandment that says we shouldn't try to learn how something happened.
Going with the logic of this post we wouldn't have electricity, telephones, cars, computers, running water, any of the modern luxuries that our ancestors in the not so distant past didn't have.
I imagine we will never have all of the answers, this side of eternity...but while we're here, why not use the brains we've been given by the Creator?
There is a point at which we just have to accept that God did it in the manner that He said He did. To go beyond the actual words is to add to Scripture.
In the end, it all comes down to faith. If it were important for us to know, it would be there. Since it isn't, we'll have to wait till we get to heaven.
The difference there being that God commanded Adam to not eat the fruit of that particular tree...there is no commandment that says we shouldn't try to learn how something happened.
Going with the logic of this post we wouldn't have electricity, telephones, cars, computers, running water, any of the modern luxuries that our ancestors in the not so distant past didn't have.
I imagine we will never have all of the answers, this side of eternity...but while we're here, why not use the brains we've been given by the Creator?
Your OP was not about your undertaking to come up with scientific discovery to benefit mankind like electricity, telephones, cars, computers or running water did. Your OP was publicly voicing doubt on Christian site about what we have as only written account of God's word about our creation. So no need to go to inventors of electricity when you don't like the answer to your question.
Would God, who is love, let that accepted account of His words through thousands of years be fraudlent? God gave us the sun, and the moon, and the water, and air, and food, and talent, and creativity, and love above all. And He gave us account of how we came to be. But it's not enough, we want more, and more, and more. That's what being fallen is.
Your OP was not about your undertaking to come up with scientific discovery to benefit mankind like electricity, telephones, cars, computers or running water did. Your OP was publicly voicing doubt on Christian site about what we have as only written account of God's word about our creation. So no need to go to inventors of electricity when you don't like the answer to your question.
Would God, who is love, let that accepted account of His words through thousands of years be fraudlent? God gave us the sun, and the moon, and the water, and air, and food, and talent, and creativity, and love above all. And He gave us account of how we came to be. But it's not enough, we want more, and more, and more. That's what being fallen is.
Actually, my OP was more about voicing doubt in the way we view the scripture...from the literal perspective...not the scripture itself. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
The difference there being that God commanded Adam to not eat the fruit of that particular tree...there is no commandment that says we shouldn't try to learn how something happened.
Going with the logic of this post we wouldn't have electricity, telephones, cars, computers, running water, any of the modern luxuries that our ancestors in the not so distant past didn't have.
I imagine we will never have all of the answers, this side of eternity...but while we're here, why not use the brains we've been given by the Creator?
Let me try and answer this with an unorthodox approach:
China as you may well know is the oldest and most enduring civilization in history. Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism came about in 400 to 500 BC in China yet China is much older going back 2,500 BC; and before Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism there was another belief --- a belief in one God named, Shangdi. In the ancient Chinese writing which are known as Chinese radicals similar to the ancient Egyptians pictographs, it uses symbols to represent it's meaning.
You'll notice the Chinese radical for "create", when broken down reveals a curious meaning; you'd think that to create something you create something with your hands, but the word "create" is shown to be the creation of man from dust, or to speak something into existence.
From that rational, is simply speaking a miracle into existence not a satisfactory answer? The Bible always put emphasis on His Word, because the Word of God is powerful and alive. (Hebrews 4:12; Jeremiah 23:29).
That said, who knows, perhaps there is a scientific language to measure the mechanics behind a miracle, which in this case God created the heaven and the earth. As it's written: "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings." (Proverbs 25:2).
Let me try and answer this with an unorthodox approach:
China as you may well know is the oldest and most enduring civilization in history. Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism came about in 400 to 500 BC in China yet China is much older going back 2,500 BC; and before Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism there was another belief --- a belief in one God named, Shangdi. In the ancient Chinese writing which are known as Chinese radicals similar to the ancient Egyptians pictographs, it uses symbols to represent it's meaning.
You'll notice the Chinese radical for "create", when broken down reveals a curious meaning; you'd think that to create something you create something with your hands, but the word "create" is shown to be the creation of man from dust, or to speak something into existence.
From that rational, is simply speaking a miracle into existence not a satisfactory answer? The Bible always put emphasis on His Word, because the Word of God is powerful and alive. (Hebrews 4:12; Jeremiah 23:29).
That said, who knows, perhaps there is a scientific language to measure the mechanics behind a miracle, which in this case God created the heaven and the earth. As it's written: "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings." (Proverbs 25:2).
After the Apostle Paul's conversion he was blind, the Lord sent Ananias to lay hands on him and pray for his healing and we are told that something like scales fell from his eyes and he was able to see again. This is a miracle too. But we have more detail...the detail doesn't negate the miracle, it just offers more explanation.
Again, I do NOT deny the miracle of creation...I just want deeper understanding.
After the Apostle Paul's conversion he was blind, the Lord sent Ananias to lay hands on him and pray for his healing and we are told that something like scales fell from his eyes and he was able to see again. This is a miracle too. But we have more detail...the detail doesn't negate the miracle, it just offers more explanation.
Again, I do NOT deny the miracle of creation...I just want deeper understanding.
And I'm sure it will be revealed to you one day. My wisdom to you is pray with a humble heart for discernment and guidance.
All in all, it's important to remember that we are all brethren in Christ, and what's most important for being a Christian is fellowship and salvation.
And I'm sure it will be revealed to you one day. My wisdom to you is pray with a humble heart for discernment and guidance.
All in all, it's important to remember that we are all brethren in Christ, and what's most important for being a Christian is fellowship and salvation.
This is why I typically try to avoid the creation discussions...I tend to be very ecumenical...so it's worrisome to see or hear the words that come from some about their brothers and sisters that believe differently than they do. I was actually hoping we could avoid the creation v evolution debate...but I knew better lol.
This is why I typically try to avoid the creation discussions...I tend to be very ecumenical...so it's worrisome to see or hear the words that come from some about their brothers and sisters that believe differently than they do. I was actually hoping we could avoid the creation v evolution debate...but I knew better lol.
You don't find it worrisome that a lot of people believe they came from monkeys, millions of years ago, in direct contradiction to only written account of God's words, and, not surprisingly, in accordance with godless/atheist worldview?
Each step towards "evolutionary" existence is step away from God, even if it might be a small step, because it diminishes the nature of man's relationship with God. Of course, God could have made the universe how He wanted, so if He wanted He could of made us through evolution. I can certainly accept that. But what we have from account of His word is that He didn't, that we are much more important to Him to be created as evolution theorises, while at the same time evolution theory is peppered with fraud and holes. Put two and two together, and you can have a conclusion on the topic.
Now, having a private view on it is one thing, while publicly promoting or instigating "a discussion" (we have seen how it's been) leaning to atheist worldview is another, because you are influencing hundreds or thousands of people.
So if one does damage to himself, no matter how large or small damage is, it's a damage to one. If one's action damage relationships with God of hundreds, thousands or millions of people, than that damage is times hundreds, thousands, millions.
I am not saying you are doing damage, I am saying that it's probably wise to move with caution when publicly puting out things on matters of God, because responsibility is huge. Imagine even one soul making a wrong step because of something you instigated. If one has a reason to publicly contradict or instigate contradiction about something that's accepted to be from God, I guess it better be an extremely good reason, which I don't even know what would it be.
Yes, Jesus's death on the cross is sufficient because He took our sins upon Himself. But why did He need to become a man in order to do so?
Paul - one of the greatest Hebrew scholars who ever lived, if not the greatest - gave us the answer in Romans 5:14,15. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Because of Adam's initial sin, all his descendants are sinful. Jesus became a man, took on the form of the sons of Adam, so that His death as a man on that cross might be sufficient for all mankind. To turn the first part of that into an allegory or a myth, robs Christ's atonement of its full power. That is how a literal view of Genesis enables the rest of the doctrines to hang together.
You don't find it worrisome that a lot of people actually believe they came from monkeys, millions of years ago, in direct contradiction to only written account of God's words, and, not surprisingly, in accordance with godless/atheist worldview?
Each step towards "evolutionary" existence is step away from God, even if it might be a small step, because it diminishes the nature of one's relationship with God. Of course, God could have made the universe how He wanted, so if He wanted He could of made us through evolution. I can certainly accept that. But what we have from account of His word is that He didn't, that we are much more important to Him to be created as evolution theorises, while at the same time evolution theory is peppered with fraud and holes. Put two and two together, and you can have a conclusion on the topic.
Now, having a private view on it is one thing, while publicly promoting or instigating "a discussion" (we have seen how it's been) leaning to atheist worldview is another, because you are influencing hundreds or thousands of people.
So if one does damage to himself, no matter how large or small damage is, it's a damage to one. If one's action damage relationships with God of hundreds, thousands or millions of people, than that damage is times hundreds, thousands, millions.
I am not saying you are doing damage, I am saying that one should be caution what to put out publicly on matters of God, because responsibility is huge. Imagine even one soul making a wrong step because of something you instigated in such manner. So if one has a reason to publicly contradict or instigate contradiction about something that's accepted to be from God, one should have an extremely good reason, which I don't even know what would it be.
Those of us who believe that evolution occurred do not believe that humans "came from monkeys." Evolution doesn't make that claim. Perhaps you should learn something about evolution before making such false claims.
Let's see... There was Clement, mentored by St. Peter and chosen by him to be successor Bishop of Rome. How could he know anything about Christianity? Then there were Polycarp and Ignatious, students of St. John. Might as well throw their books into the toilet--after all, they're not The Bible. And so on, but never mind. None of them were "real" Christians, because they were not conservative Evangelical Protestants so you don't really care to hear about them, except to find fault.
Here's a little thought experiment for you. You have a chance to be the first creationist who hasn't dodged it: Suppose convincing and unassailable documentary evidence came to light that the Garden story was intended by its (divinely inspired) author to be an etiology--a "Just-So" story. What would that do to your faith? Would you quit being a Christian?
Those of us who believe that evolution occurred do not believe that humans "came from monkeys." Evolution doesn't make that claim. Perhaps you should learn something about evolution before making such false claims.
Perhaps you should actually read the source book for your worldview.
That's from page 111 of "The Descent of Man" by Charles Darwin.
Here's full paragraph: "In the class of mammals the steps are not difficult to conceive which led from the ancient Monotremata to the ancient Marsupials; and from these to the early progenitors of the placental mammals. We may thus ascend to the Lemuridae; and the interval is not very wide from these to the Simiadae. The Simiadae then branched off into two great stems, the New World and Old World monkeys; and from the latter, at a remote period, Man, the wonder and glory of the Universe, proceeded."
Perhaps you should actually read the source book for your worldview.
That's from page 111 of "The Descent of Man" by Charles Darwin.
Here's full paragraph: "In the class of mammals the steps are not difficult to conceive which led from the ancient Monotremata to the ancient Marsupials; and from these to the early progenitors of the placental mammals. We may thus ascend to the Lemuridae; and the interval is not very wide from these to the Simiadae. The Simiadae then branched off into two great stems, the New World and Old World monkeys; and from the latter, at a remote period, Man, the wonder and glory of the Universe, proceeded."
Those of us who believe that evolution occurred do not believe that humans "came from monkeys." Evolution doesn't make that claim. Perhaps you should learn something about evolution before making such false claims.
Ah, yes it does. It has us as having "common ancestors". So, is this the way God created man "in His own image" by having common ancestors as monkeys, chimps and gorillas?
You may look at Genesis as allegory, but why? Why, if God had the capability to do it as indicated, why would He do it differently and then tell us He did it as Genesis states?
Here's a little thought experiment for you. You have a chance to be the first creationist who hasn't dodged it: Suppose convincing and unassailable documentary evidence came to light that the Garden story was intended by its (divinely inspired) author to be an etiology--a "Just-So" story. What would that do to your faith? Would you quit being a Christian?
Would I quit being a Christian? No. I first became a Christian from a background of materialistic atheism (there are different types of atheists) and fully believing in "deep time" and the evolution of everything from molecules to man. When I became a Christian, as to the age of the earth, etc., I simply swapped my atheistic views of evolution to a theistic view of evolution. I could conceivably return to that POV, but all the theological issues I have with that viewpoint would have to be cleared up as well, and, so far, that has not happened.
I know there are many fine Christians that believe in the 'Standard' Cosmology and "deep time" earth history. I do not dispute that at all. I have obviously come to a place where I disagree rather ferverantly with others about this 'secondary' doctrine (the age of the earth is not a 'primary' or 'essential' doctrine). The age issue is still important as it impacts how we treat and interpret God's Holy Word... which does impact our faith.
Evolution is the excuse many have for rejecting parts of the Bible they don't like. If we are essentially primates then why would adultery be a sin? It's natural. If the six day creation is a lie then so is the Fourth Commandment. I don't have to rest and honor God. I can go golfing, get drunk watching sports or whatever else I want. The best part is that if they get to pick and chose what parts they like that can also pretend there is no judgment and there is no Hell.
It's like the old line. God made man in his image. Man, being a gentleman, returned the favor.
