Should Genesis be taken literally?

[expos4ever]

From Francis Collins, a highly credentialed Christian scientist:

The shelves of many evangelicals are full of books that point out the flaws in evolution, discuss it only as a theory, and almost imply that there's a conspiracy here to avoid the fact that evolution is actually flawed. All of those books, unfortunately, are based upon conclusions that no reasonable biologist would now accept.

So: how you explain the position of this particular believer?

 

[AnnaliseH]

Did you even read the quote from one of your own evolutionist scientists? Or do you simply prefer not to see anything that does not agree with your ideas?

 

[Speedwell]

Did you even read the quote from one of your own evolutionist scientists? Or do you simply prefer not to see anything that does not agree with your ideas?

It doesn't matter. This thread is about interpreting Genesis, not evolution.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Except a talking serpent....

Do you believe a donkey rebuked a man? I do, because the bible tells me. You believe the red sea split in two but not a talking serpent? You believe the sun stood still? A man was swallowed by a fish? But not a serpent talking? No where does the bible say Genesis is allegory. It was there for a reason and it is true. You must understand the beginning to understand the end.

 

[Archivist]

No. I consider those who are knowingly saying things that are false to be lying.

Then I guess you think that I am a liar. Sad, because I wouldn't say the same about you. As I have said numerous times, you are entitled to your interpretation.

I consider those who teach contrary to what the Scriptures say to be false teachers.

Anyone can be a good teacher or a false teacher. Telling anyone anything as a stated fact is teaching.

But I am teaching nothing contrary to scripture. I believe that the creation stories in Genesis are allegories.

If I tell you the British sank the Bismark early in WWII that's teaching. If I contend that the Bismark slipped away and became a floating night club in Peru that's false teaching.

But we aren't talking about the Bismark.

That's different from giving an opinion. I represent my opinions as opinions, and God's word as fact. If someone can show me that I'm wrong I'm more than willing to admit it. However, When the Fourth Commandment says "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day," I know that those words are true. They were carved by God Himself on stone tablets. God cannot lie.

I've nnevers aid that God has lied. I have said that the creation stories in Genesis are allegories.

 

[Archivist]

Do you believe a donkey rebuked a man? I do, because the bible tells me. You believe the red sea split in two but not a talking serpent? You believe the sun stood still? A man was swallowed by a fish? But not a serpent talking? No where does the bible say Genesis is allegory. It was there for a reason and it is true. You must understand the beginning to understand the end.

Where does scripture does Jesus say that the story of the Good Samaritan is a parable? It doesn't. Yet most Christians regard it as such.

 

[AnnaliseH]

It doesn't matter. This thread is about interpreting Genesis, not evolution

Actually, it does matter. Because the only reason for you not to interpret Genesis literally is because you are coming to the book with a prior conviction that evolution is true. But evolution is at its core a humanistic doctrine, invented by men trying to explain away a need for God. As the quote I quoted pointed out, from their own admission.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Where does scripture does Jesus say that the story of the Good Samaritan is a parable? It doesn't. Yet most Christians regard it as such.

I did not reference parables intentionally nor did I refer to that story and it does not take away that Genesis is meant to be literal.

 

[KWCrazy]

If you can't defend your position without recourse to falsehoods like that, what good is it?

You could just say, "There is no Fourth Commandment."
It would make as much sense. After all, why honor a Sabbath if there was never a Sabbath? If the Lord didn't rest on the seventh day of creation, there should only be nine commandments.

 

[Archivist]

I did not reference parables intentionally nor did I refer to that story and it does not take away that Genesis is meant to be literal.

I know that you didn't reference the parables. I did that to show that there are parts of the Bible that are meant for instruction, not necessarily to be taken literally. I simply accept the Genesis creation stories as allegories, not as literal accounts of creation.

 

[expos4ever]

What evidence?

The evidence that the world gives us by observation.

Is personal testimony evidence?

It is an unreliable form of evidence that would not pass muster under a scientific approach to understanding the world.

Does the testimony of many in this forum who have experienced personal miracles count as evidence?

It might carry some weight; however, given the misrepresentation, the almost certain lying, and other patently irrational things we see in this and other threads, I understand why people in general view such claims with extreme skepticism.

Is your "rational" mind open to the possibility that there are things unseen; entities which exist beyond the scope of the physical world? Are you capable of such abstract thought? Is "reality" the sum total of all existence or just the physical world?

You are proving my point about the well-deserved low degree of credibility ascribed to fundamentalists: There is nothing I have posted that would lead a rational person to believe that I do not believe in "unseen things", or entities beyond what is presently known (i.e. the physical world).

And what does this have to do with the matter of evolution and the Genesis creation account?

 

[Speedwell]

You could just say, "There is no Fourth Commandment."
It would make as much sense. After all, why honor a Sabbath if there was never a Sabbath? If the Lord didn't rest on the seventh day of creation, there should only be nine commandments.

You're not paying attention. What I said was the Ex 20:11 is not part of the fourth commandment as written in stone by God.

 

[expos4ever]

The nice thing about quoting a the word of God is that you aren't using your words, so you aren't ever wrong.

Ladies and Gentlemen: Here we have the smoking gun - the admission by the fundamentalist that he/she believes that they basically cannot be mistaken.

This is magical thinking, profoundly at odds with the clear evidence that you and others are wrong very often indeed.

Worse, it is dangerous for our society as a whole. When people believe that they have perfect knowledge of truth, with no need to test their beliefs in the real world, we are all put in very real danger.

 

[Speedwell]

Actually, it does matter. Because the only reason for you not to interpret Genesis literally is because you are coming to the book with a prior conviction that evolution is true.

It's not the only reason, it's not even the best reason and it is most certainly not my reason--as I have repeatedly explained in this thread. But the fact that you feel you have to resort to a slanderous falsehood tells me quite a bit about YECism.

 

[expos4ever]

It's not the only reason, it's not even the best reason and it is most certainly not my reason--as I have repeatedly explained in this thread. But the fact that you feel you have to resort to a slanderous falsehood tells me quite a bit about YECism.

Indeed. There is a much larger issue here than the matter of evolution. This thread is literally festooned with misrepresentation, probable outright lies, demonization, and inflaming rhetoric. And almost all of it - and don't make me prove this because I will - coming from the "YEC" side.

We have a lot more to worry about than the problems, if any, that arise in virtue of people not believing the facts about how human life arose. There is arguably such a thing as fundamentalist mindset, and it is arguably a very dangerous thing for the health of our society. I hope and expect we will see fundamentalist thinking decline as it butts heads with reality and is slowly eroded away. But, in the meantime, we need to be on our guard against it's insidious and pernicious influences.

 

[KWCrazy]

You're not paying attention. What I said was the Ex 20:11 is not part of the fourth commandment as written in stone by God.

Please cite your evidence.
I'll cite Matthew Chapter 5.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Okay.... Ill throw in Matthew 19.
4 And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
How did He make them male and female from the beginning if man didn't come along for millions of years?
You're teaching heresy.

 

[expos4ever]

So you only believe what you can observe.

Are you serious? I never said anything that would support such an assertion.

 

[expos4ever]

Not quite.
The word of God can't be wrong.

Sorry, but your words on the record:

The nice thing about quoting a the word of God is that you aren't using your words, so you aren't ever wrong.

This goes beyond the claim that God can't be wrong - you have clearly claimed that you are never wrong.

 

[HenryM]

Verse from Psalm 146 comes to mind:

Don’t put your trust in human leaders.
Don’t trust in people who can’t save you.
When they die, they return to the ground.
On that day their plans come to nothing.

 

[Speedwell]

Please cite your evidence.

Check the voicing of the passage--a very important indicator in a language without quotation marks.