My Abiogenesis Challenge

[miknik5]

True.

Then there is nothing that you need

 

[HitchSlap]

Then there is nothing that you need

"Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better."
-Albert Einstein

 

[miknik5]

"Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better."
-Albert Einstein

Look deep into Romans 1 and understand there's a difference in glorifying temporal things that will pass and glorifying the CREATOR of all things who will not pass

 

[Skreeper]

Look deep into Romans 1 and understand there's a difference in glorifying temporal things that will pass and glorifying the CREATOR of all things who will not pass

Why should I glorify something that hasn't even been shown to exist?

 

[HitchSlap]

Look deep into Romans 1 and understand there's a difference in glorifying temporal things that will pass and glorifying the CREATOR of all things who will not pass

"All things must pass."
-George Harrison

 

[miknik5]

Why should I glorify something that hasn't even been shown to exist?

Oh I wasn't talking to you

 

[miknik5]

"All things must pass."
-George Harrison

10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

-The Word of GOD

 

[HitchSlap]

10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

-The Word of GOD

"We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.”
-Cthulhu

 

[miknik5]

"We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.”
-Cthulhu

This isn't my home

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

We were talking about abiogenesis

You said people are in the process of looking for evidence. Any progress that you could disclose here?

Why yes, actually:

(Credit reddit user /u/maskedman3d)
Abiogenesis is a working hypothesis, it is currently our best idea as to how life originated given the current evidence. Some say it contradicts the "law(very loosely named)" of biogenesis, but it doesn't. Biogenesis disproves the archaic idea that full formed modern lifeforms like maggots and and mice magically arise from inanimate matter like rotting corpses and dirty laundry. By contrast abiogenesis suggest that early life arose from complex chemical reactions and self replicating molecular compounds and structures. But is there any evidence for such an event? Yes:

What we have observed:

• Glycolaldehyde, a sugar which is used to form RNA, forms naturally in space
• That 52 amino acids, 8 of which are found in terrestrial proteins, are found in Carbonaceous chondritesiron rich metionrites
• And that large organic macromolecular compounds can be found in comets*
  
• That peptide bonds between amino acids form at the air–water interface
• That lipid bilayers are capable of spontaneous formation
• The chemicals needed for two of life's metabolic pathways are found near hydrothermal vent

New:

• Delicate organic molecules found on the dwarf planet Ceres probably formed there

Expanded info:

* 16 organic compounds including four compounds that have never before been detected in comets found on Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

Experimental Data:
RNA:

• Ribonucleotides can form abiotically
• Conditions like meteorite impacts can generate the four nucleobases adenine, guanine, cytosine and uracil
• Pyranosyl-RNA can self assemble
• RNA like molecules can self assemble
• Precursors of ribonucleotides, amino acids and lipids from an possible abiotic origin
• Spontaneous Formation of RNA Strands, Peptidyl RNA, and Cofactors
• The replication of RNA and the expression of functional RNA can be accomplished with RNA alone
• Researchers synthesized RNA enzymes that can replicate themselves without the help of any proteins or other cellular components

New:

• Thioester peptide nucleic acids {tPNAs} self-pair with complementary tPNA strands and cross-pair with RNA and DNA Summery article from Wired
• Methyl-RNA: an evolutionary bridge between RNA and DNA?

Amino Acids:

• 22 amino acids synthesized under abiotic conditions
• Fatty acids, amines and an amino acid called glycine formed in conditions similar to meteorite impact

Proteins:

• DNA, amino acids, and ribosomes used to manufacture proteins without using cells
• Protein like amino acid chains called Proteinoids form abiotically

New:

• Fatty molecules POPC added to solution caused unlikely self-organization and production of proteins

New:

Chemical Evolution:

• Divergence of self-replicating chemicals mimics speciation

The physics of entorpy and abiogenesis:

• Entropy help shape protein Integrin αIIbβ3
• Entropy causes genome to self organize
• Entropy-driven stacking of plant photosynthetic membranes
• Thermodynamics might drive abiogenesis

Genetic "code" and formation:

• Proto-genes and de novo gene birth
• New genes from non-coding sequence

New:

• Structural Insights into the Origins of DNA Polymerase Fidelity

Also of interest:

• "Chemically active” droplets grow to the size of cells and spontaneously divide
• The Origins of the RNA World
• The RNA Worlds in Context
• Papers from the Szostak Lab

New:

• Evolution of biological information
• The origin of ion-pumping proteins could explain how life began in, and escaped from, undersea thermal vents.
• The Otto Research Group publications on chemistry and biology

 

[miknik5]

Why yes, actually:

(Credit reddit user /u/maskedman3d)
Abiogenesis is a working hypothesis, it is currently our best idea as to how life originated given the current evidence. Some say it contradicts the "law(very loosely named)" of biogenesis, but it doesn't. Biogenesis disproves the archaic idea that full formed modern lifeforms like maggots and and mice magically arise from inanimate matter like rotting corpses and dirty laundry. By contrast abiogenesis suggest that early life arose from complex chemical reactions and self replicating molecular compounds and structures. But is there any evidence for such an event? Yes:

What we have observed:

• Glycolaldehyde, a sugar which is used to form RNA, forms naturally in space
• That 52 amino acids, 8 of which are found in terrestrial proteins, are found in Carbonaceous chondritesiron rich metionrites
• And that large organic macromolecular compounds can be found in comets*
  
• That peptide bonds between amino acids form at the air–water interface
• That lipid bilayers are capable of spontaneous formation
• The chemicals needed for two of life's metabolic pathways are found near hydrothermal vent

New:

• Delicate organic molecules found on the dwarf planet Ceres probably formed there

Expanded info:

* 16 organic compounds including four compounds that have never before been detected in comets found on Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

Experimental Data:
RNA:

• Ribonucleotides can form abiotically
• Conditions like meteorite impacts can generate the four nucleobases adenine, guanine, cytosine and uracil
• Pyranosyl-RNA can self assemble
• RNA like molecules can self assemble
• Precursors of ribonucleotides, amino acids and lipids from an possible abiotic origin
• Spontaneous Formation of RNA Strands, Peptidyl RNA, and Cofactors
• The replication of RNA and the expression of functional RNA can be accomplished with RNA alone
• Researchers synthesized RNA enzymes that can replicate themselves without the help of any proteins or other cellular components

New:

• Thioester peptide nucleic acids {tPNAs} self-pair with complementary tPNA strands and cross-pair with RNA and DNA Summery article from Wired
• Methyl-RNA: an evolutionary bridge between RNA and DNA?

Amino Acids:

• 22 amino acids synthesized under abiotic conditions
• Fatty acids, amines and an amino acid called glycine formed in conditions similar to meteorite impact

Proteins:

• DNA, amino acids, and ribosomes used to manufacture proteins without using cells
• Protein like amino acid chains called Proteinoids form abiotically

New:

• Fatty molecules POPC added to solution caused unlikely self-organization and production of proteins

New:

Chemical Evolution:

• Divergence of self-replicating chemicals mimics speciation

The physics of entorpy and abiogenesis:

• Entropy help shape protein Integrin αIIbβ3
• Entropy causes genome to self organize
• Entropy-driven stacking of plant photosynthetic membranes
• Thermodynamics might drive abiogenesis

Genetic "code" and formation:

• Proto-genes and de novo gene birth
• New genes from non-coding sequence

New:

• Structural Insights into the Origins of DNA Polymerase Fidelity

Also of interest:

• "Chemically active” droplets grow to the size of cells and spontaneously divide
• The Origins of the RNA World
• The RNA Worlds in Context
• Papers from the Szostak Lab

New:

• Evolution of biological information
• The origin of ion-pumping proteins could explain how life began in, and escaped from, undersea thermal vents.
• The Otto Research Group publications on chemistry and biology

Okay

Now what did they bring forth?

Any recognizable identifiable animal, vegetable, or mineral?

 

[miknik5]

Why are you giving a list of.....components?

 

[Gene2memE]

Okay

Now what did they bring forth?

Any recognizable identifiable animal, vegetable, or mineral?

Is a bacteria animal, vegetable, or mineral?
Is a prion animal, vegetable, or mineral?
Is a virus animal, vegetable, or mineral?
Is a self replicating molecule animal, vegetable, or mineral?

Why do the initial steps of life need to meet grade school category classifications?

 

[miknik5]

Is a bacteria animal, vegetable, or mineral?
Is a prion animal, vegetable, or mineral?
Is a virus animal, vegetable, or mineral?
Is a self replicating molecule animal, vegetable, or mineral?

Why do the initial steps of life need to meet grade school category classifications?

They have to make up some visible recognizable form of life

You can't give me the bits and pieces, tell me they self replicate outside of a recognizable vessel and pass it off as Abiogenesis

 

[miknik5]

You are the scientists who classify living things
And you want to list replicating RNA as evidence of abiogenesis?

What is it?
What did it become?

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

Okay

Now what did they bring forth?

Any recognizable identifiable animal, vegetable, or mineral?

Did you even make it past grade school science class?

You haven't "brought forth" anything but preaching, grand-standing and unsupported assertions in this thread. You couldn't have even skimmed all of those articles and papers in the time between my posting it and your response. Stop pretending to be so smart. Humble yourself and try and learn what it is you're arguing against.

BTW, nice moving of the goalposts. You ask for progress and then criticize when we haven't produced a new organism from scratch.

 

[miknik5]

Is a bacteria animal, vegetable, or mineral?
Is a prion animal, vegetable, or mineral?
Is a virus animal, vegetable, or mineral?
Is a self replicating molecule animal, vegetable, or mineral?

Why do the initial steps of life need to meet grade school category classifications?

Im pretty sure we were talking about living recognizable things created spontaneously without any input from existing

Did you even make it past grade school science class?

You haven't "brought forth" anything but preaching, grand-standing and unsupported assertions in this thread. You couldn't have even skimmed all of those articles and papers in the time between my posting it and your response. Stop pretending to be so smart. Humble yourself and try and learn what it is you're arguing against.

BTW, nice moving of the goalposts. You ask for progress and then criticize when we haven't produced a new organism from scratch.

Isn't that the whole point of abiogenesis?

Bringing forth something living and recognizable from scratch?

Something that nobody can do but GOD?

 

[Speedwell]

Im pretty sure we were talking about living recognizable things created spontaneously without any input from existing


Isn't that the whole point of abiogenesis?

Bringing forth something living and recognizable from scratch?

Something that nobody can do but GOD?

I don't know what you mean by "recognizable." Certainly, the first life would not be anything like the any of the creatures alive today.

 

[Gene2memE]

They have to make up some visible recognizable form of life

No, they don't. They don't have to be "life" as we'd recognise it. They just have to be biological entities that can reproduce. Small, simple things that can make more of themselves and change.

The difference between "life" and "not life" isn't sharp. There's no clear gap between the two. Rather, there's a number of gradients of complexity and structure that humans put an arbitrary line (or series of lines) across.

You can't give me the bits and pieces, tell me they self replicate outside of a recognizable vessel and pass it off as Abiogenesis

Sure I can.

Bacteria fit pretty much any definition of "life", they're probably the most common form of life, but they're neither animals or plants. They're not even in the same domain as animals and plants, as their cells don't have the same structure.

Viruses probably aren't life - they fit some definitions but not others. But they're probably the most common type of reproducing biological entities. They're still out there, in their quadrillions, reproducing, but they're not animals or plants either.

Prions definitely aren't life - they're basically complex proteins. But we know that they can reproduce and evolve via mutation (even though they lack DNA), suggesting that even without DNA/RNA, relatively simple combinations of chemical interactions can become progressively complex.

 

[miknik5]

I don't know what you mean by "recognizable." Certainly, the first life would not be anything like the any of the creatures alive today.

I don't even know what to say

I'm speechless
I can't imagine what for even