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My Abiogenesis Challenge

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Gene2memE

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Im pretty sure we were talking about living recognizable things created spontaneously without any input from existing

I dont think ANYONE else here, or elsewhere, is talking about abiogenesis as "living recognizable things created spontaneously without any input from existing [life]".

This is your formulation.

The earliest thing we recognise as life was probably a form of simple photosynthetic bacteria, which may be as much as 3.8 billion years old. It took billions and billions of years before these started to become more complex. The fossils we have from 1.1 billion to 800 million years ago are still really basic compared to existing bacteria.
 
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miknik5

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No, they don't. They don't have to be "life" as we'd recognise it. They just have to be biological entities that can reproduce. Small, simple things that can make more of themselves and change.

The difference between "life" and "not life" isn't sharp. There's no clear gap between the two. Rather, there's a number of gradients of complexity and structure that humans put an arbitrary line (or series of lines) across.



Sure I can.

Bacteria fit pretty much any definition of "life", they're probably the most common form of life, but they're neither animals or plants. They're not even in the same domain as animals and plants, as their cells don't have the same structure.

Viruses probably aren't life - they fit some definitions but not others. But they're probably the most common type of reproducing biological entities. They're still out there, in their quadrillions, reproducing, but they're not animals or plants either.

Prions definitely aren't life - they're basically complex proteins. But we know that they can reproduce and evolve via mutation (even though they lack DNA), suggesting that even without DNA/RNA, relatively simple combinations of chemical interactions can become progressively complex.
But these...simple structures already exist

How is this an example of abiogenesis?
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Im pretty sure we were talking about living recognizable things created spontaneously without any input from existing


Isn't that the whole point of abiogenesis?

Bringing forth something living and recognizable from scratch?

Something that nobody can do but GOD?
You're starting to sound like Chuck Missler.
I love this video. The complete stupidity of it makes me smile.
 
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miknik5

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Why are you astonished? Did you have something else in mind?
Yeah
Scientists overstepping reproduction and trying to recreate copies of living animals (which includes man)

Not strange concoctions of strange invented peculiarities
 
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Speedwell

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Yeah
Scientists overstepping reproduction and trying to recreate copies of living animals (which includes man)

Not strange concoctions of strange invented peculiarities
Well, whatever bizarre idea you have of abiogenesis, its not what the rest of us are talking about. Abiogenesis is the study of how life first arose from non-life, not about popping modern creatures into existence.
 
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AV1611VET

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Abiogenesis is the study of how life first arose from non-life,
God did it, that's how.
Speedwell said:
... not about popping modern creatures into existence.
A man was once searching in vain for his keys. When a cop asked where he lost them, he pointed down the alley. "Then why are you looking here?" the cop asked. "Because there's more light here," the man replied.
 
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miknik5

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Well, whatever bizarre idea you have of abiogenesis, its not what the rest of us are talking about. Abiogenesis is the study of how life first arose from non-life, not about popping modern creatures into existence.
Yeah but ultimately isn't that what man is trying to do, trying to figure out how to bring forth life from non living unrecognizable matter in an attempt to remove GOD from the equation as CREATOR
 
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Speedwell

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Yeah but ultimately isn't that what man is trying to do, trying to figure out how to bring forth life from non living unrecognizable matter in an attempt to remove GOD from the equation as CREATOR
No. That's just creationist slander.
 
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miknik5

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Well, whatever bizarre idea you have of abiogenesis, its not what the rest of us are talking about. Abiogenesis is the study of how life first arose from non-life, not about popping modern creatures into existence.
It's bizarre
Period
 
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Speedwell

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I'm not a creationist

That isn't the name I was given
Whatever, it's still slander.

Think about it: a large number of the scientists working on the problem are theists, many of them Christians. Perhaps you don't think they are "real" Christians but they think they are, they believe in God, so accusing them of trying to "remove God from the equation" is ludicrous. The rest are atheists who don't think God was ever part of the equation to begin with so they aren't trying to remove Him either. If what they discover proves inconvenient to your theology that's too bad for you, but it is nobody's intention.

This is not about God, be honest, it's about the Bible.
 
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bhsmte

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Whatever, it's still slander.

Think about it: a large number of the scientists working on the problem are theists, many of them Christians. Perhaps you don't think they are "real" Christians but they think they are, they believe in God, so accusing them of trying to "remove God from the equation" is ludicrous. The rest are atheists who don't think God was ever part of the equation to begin with so they aren't trying to remove Him either. If what they discover proves inconvenient to your theology that's too bad for you, but it is nobody's intention.

This is not about God, be honest, it's about the Bible.
With some folks, if you disagree with them, they are the enemy.
 
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miknik5

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Whatever, it's still slander.

Think about it: a large number of the scientists working on the problem are theists, many of them Christians. Perhaps you don't think they are "real" Christians but they think they are, they believe in God, so accusing them of trying to "remove God from the equation" is ludicrous. The rest are atheists who don't think God was ever part of the equation to begin with so they aren't trying to remove Him either. If what they discover proves inconvenient to your theology that's too bad for you, but it is nobody's intention.

This is not about God, be honest, it's about the Bible.
Whatever

It's still the "tower of Babel"

It's men competing against meant to make a name for themselves losing sight of the ONE to whom they belong

You can wear as many outward "coats" as you choose (costs and names and labels you gave yourself) but what it keeps coming back to is man in relation to GOD..,,creation subject to THE CREATOR
 
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Speedwell

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Whatever

It's still the "tower of Babel"

It's men competing against meant to make a name for themselves losing sight of the ONE to whom they belong

You can wear as many outward "coats" as you choose (costs and names and labels you gave yourself) but what it keeps coming back to is man in relation to GOD..,,creation subject to THE CREATOR
And a naturalistic abiogenesis does no more to unseat Him than a naturalistic evolution did.
 
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Speedwell

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You can't. No doubt about it

So what is the purpose of this
To improve our understanding of the natural world (which for theists is God's own handiwork and so worthy of the effort) and in particular our biology, which will have a direct effect on medical science.
 
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