Mary - Christian Prototype

[Paul Yohannan]

As for salvation, even the RCC does not force belief of such for salvation

The RCC regards as anathema any who deny that St. Mary is the Theotokos, the Mother of God, in accordance with the Council of Ephesus.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

By the way this has been a wonderful thread and I want to salute @Philip_B for posting it

I am still searching for the point of it. The OP author says it is not about praying to Mary, but what does the OP argue is lacking in those that respect Mary, but don't pray to her? The only other visible effect is for a church to create images and shrines to her. You could also add pilgrimages to her shrine. The thread does not argue the need for these although some have listed doing so.

To me it seems pointless to argue so much about how certain churches might honor one of many important people in the Bible.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

To me it seems pointless to argue so much about how certain churches might honor one of many important people in the Bible.

St. Mary is the most important woman in the Bible, first among the saints. If you find this discussion pointless, no one is compelling you to participate.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

View attachment 190715

St. Yevgeny Rodniodov, Martyr for Christ, pray for us!



We either pray for or pray with the deceased, depending on whether or not we know them to be glorified.

In the Orthodox Church, when a saint is determined to be in Heaven, one last memorial service is had for him, at which he is prayed for, and from then on, he is prayed with, officially.

However, unofficially, saints are venerated before their official veneration. An example would be St. Yevgeny Rodniodov. He is a Russian Orthodox soldier who was captured and beheaded by Chechen Muslims in 1996. They offered to spare his life if he embraced Islam. He refused. His glorification has not yet occurred officially, primarily due to a question raised by some bishops concerning his military status, but I and many others venerate him as a saint (if he had died in combat, that would not be martyrdom; if he had been beheaded for reasons other than refusing to commit apostasy by becoming a Muslim that would also not be martyrdom, but as it happens, he was captured, and then killed, for refusing to renounce Christ).

My real question, is there any difference to praying/petitions addressed to Mary vs any other dead saint? My understanding is that those that pray to Mary do so because she is able to better effect the petitions than any other dead saint. Don't know if it is believed that any other dead saint can even effect any petition.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

My real question, is there any difference to praying/petitions addressed to Mary vs any other dead saint? My understanding is that those that pray to Mary do so because she is able to better effect the petitions than any other dead saint. Don't know if it is believed that any other dead saint can even effect any petition.

I can't answer that question, because St. Mary nor the other saints are dead. The very condition of sainthood is one of life in Christ. In the case of the Theotokos, even her body was assumed into Heaven, like that of St. Elias.

If you rephrase your question to omit the phrase "dead saint," a phrase I regard as an offensive oxymoron, I can provide an answer, although I should advise you the issue is quite complex.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

St. Mary is the most important woman in the Bible, first among the saints.

Not what scripture says. Further Jesus said differently, that John the Baptist was greater than any born of women.

If you want to argue logically, that Mary was the mother of God, than Mary's mother is just as important, and Mary's grandmother, and ...

If you find this discussion pointless, no one is compelling you to participate.

Only the Spirit compels me to continue to preach such; to believe what is in scripture and to hold accountable those that promote differently in General Theology. If you just want to preach your doctrine without it being questioned, then just move it to the RCC section.

Understand that those in GT hold a wide range of "interpretation of scripture". As such, people that argue here are expected to defend their positions and not just state them, aka get on a soap box. I belief I am following in the spirit of GT and challenging the positions stated here.

Further, I would like to impress something on you. I think the best way I have learned is to have to defend what I state as my belief. For then I search, personally from scripture the reason for my belief. I have learned more from searching scripture to defend my belief than just what one has stated in their OP in GT.

If you find questioning of your belief difficult or defense of it troublesome then don't blame me for any angst here.

 

[Philip_B]

Your fear is unwarranted, for scripture list wherein lies our atonement. It is in the sacrifice of Jesus in his death.

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

Hebrews 2:17For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

No scripture teaches any certain "understanding" or practice toward Mary is required for atonement of our sins.


As for salvation, even the RCC does not force belief of such for salvation. You allude to a "damaged? salvation, but I say either you are or not saved. No half saved people. As for the requirements for salvation scripture puts it as simply as

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Now, I don't want to start another huge debate on the requirements of salvation, only that it has nothing to do with ones understanding or reverence of Mary.

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore he had to become like his brothers and sisters in every respect,
so that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God,
to make a sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the people.​

I know that Paul does not like it, however I think you may be helped in understanding what I am saying if you had a glance at the arguments put forward by Anselm in his work Cur Deus Homo. Without the role of Mary - who I would argue was not simply a vassal but a willing participant in the plan of God, we could not say as is attested in Hebrews 'Therefore he had to become like his brothers and sisters in every respect'.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Now we can't hear God like we hear a living brother, so how do we know that God can hear us? Scripture says so, that God hears all and knows all our thoughts.

How do we know that Mary can hear what we say both aloud and silently? Certainly not from scripture. And so the majority of Protestant that subscribe to Sola Scriptura will not be convinced to follow a man-made tradition of praying/talking to Mary.

Peace be with you.


Luke 2 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon: this man was just, and feared God, and waited for the consolation of Israel, and the holy Ghost was upon him.

34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is appointed for the fall and rising again of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be spoken against,

35 (Yea and a sword shall pierce through thy soul) that the thoughts of many hearts may be opened.


Is this Scripture? Whether you believe Scripture is a totally different story altogether.


God bless you.

 

[Meowzltov]

Not at all. Righteousness before God and salvation are closely related because they are both based entirely in Jesus Christ.

I disagree.

First of all, righteousness means different things, especially in the scriptures.

The sort of righteousness spoken of in the OT is someone who habitually (although not perfectly) follows the precepts of God. If the whole People of Israel walks in righteousness (aka follows the Torah) God will allow them to live in the Promised Land. That's the covenant. Nothing to do with eternal life.

In the NT, righteousness is someone who by grace stands forgiven before God. It brings salvation, meaning eternal life.

 

[Meowzltov]

The issue is not that the dead saints can petition God for the living. There is scripture supporting this. The issue is, can the dead saints be so all knowing as to read our minds.

If they are praying for us, then they are aware of what is going on.

 

[Philip_B]

Peace be with you.
Luke 2 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon: this man was just, and feared God, and waited for the consolation of Israel, and the holy Ghost was upon him.
34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is appointed for the fall and rising again of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be spoken against,
35 (Yea and a sword shall pierce through thy soul) that the thoughts of many hearts may be opened.
Is this Scripture? Whether you believe Scripture is a totally different story altogether. God bless you.

Luke 2:25
Now there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; this man was righteous and devout, looking forward to the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit rested on him.

Luke 2:34-35
Then Simeon blessed them and said to his mother Mary, ‘This child is destined for the falling and the rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be opposed so that the inner thoughts of many will be revealed—and a sword will pierce your own soul too.’​

It would seem on the basis of limited research that the passages you quote are in the received canon of scripture, and I thank you for bringing it to our attention. As it so happens I do believe it.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

It would seem on the basis of limited research that the passages you quote are in the received canon of scripture, and I thank you for bringing it to our attention. As it so happens I do believe it.

How enlightening. I agree it is scripture. Does the quoted scripture answer either of the questions asked in the initial quote of my post? NO.

I could quote the entirety of scripture and not have any support to answer the second quoted question. "Can Mary hear what we say aloud and silently?"

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

If they are praying for us, then they are aware of what is going on.

You make an assumption of a power equal to God in being able to read minds. Scripture explicitly says God has this power. No other is stated to have this ability. Further it is a lesson and great comfort that Satan does not have this ability, from the story of Job.

Further, to continue your argument that to be aware of another's situation does not imply being able to read their minds. If so we living could read the minds of others. Also, the angels and all the other dead could read our minds and we could pray equally to them also.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The RCC regards as anathema any who deny that St. Mary is the Theotokos, the Mother of God, in accordance with the Council of Ephesus.

Look up the RCC definition for who is included in the Church. If the RCC professes that those outside of their doctrine will still be saved and are part of the Church, then I hardly think the assignment of "anathema" is fitting. Of course some Catholics do consider those that disagree with them anathema.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Not what scripture says.

Actually, it is what Scripture says, on the basis of John 1 and Luke 1.

Further Jesus said differently, that John the Baptist was greater than any born of women.

Once again, you quote our Lord only partially, and with deleterious effect. For our Lord goes on to make it clear that that does not apply in the Kingdom of Heaven, where St. Mary the Theotokos now dwells bodily.

We are blessed on Earth with the holy and wonderworking relics of St. John, whereas St. Mary was, along with St. Elias and our Lord, assumed into Heaven bodily (albeit in her case, at the time of her natural death, allowing her experience of the human condition to be perfect and complete, for she is the new Eve, just as Christ is the new Adam).

If you want to argue logically, that Mary was the mother of God, than Mary's mother is just as important, and Mary's grandmother, and ...

The reason why St. Mary is the most important saint is blindingly obvious: she alone is the Mother of God.

That being said, Sts. Joachim and Anna are the Holy and Righteous Forebears of our Lord God Incarnate. They are not as close to God as St. Mary, because they did not physically give birth to Him; they did not suckle God at their breast, or feed, care and nurture Him as a child. The intimate and unique bond between mother and child lies at the heart of the hyperdoulia.

All of the ancestors of God are holy and worthy of veneration, which is why Matthew 1 begins by listing them. This family tree in Matthew 1 is not mere ornamentation; it contains a deep theological meaning showing how our God inserted Himself directly into the Human race.

Only the Spirit compels me to continue to preach such; to believe what is in scripture and to hold accountable those that promote differently in General Theology.

You are welcome to use the General Theology forum as you see fit, as long as you adhere to the CF.com Statement of Faith, the GT Statement of Purpose, and the sitewide rules.

If you just want to preach your doctrine without it being questioned, then just move it to the RCC section.

I am not a member of the Roman Catholic Church; it would be a violation of the SOP of their forum for me to "preach" in there, although as it happens, I do not presume to preach anywhere (although I could do so here, or in Traditional Theology, or The Ancient Way). I discuss theology with like minded persons, and I debate theology in defense of the ancient faith.

Understand that those in GT hold a wide range of "interpretation of scripture". As such, people that argue here are expected to defend their positions and not just state them, aka get on a soap box.

That is actually not quite correct; whereas the rules for General Theology do permit debates over theological matters (although not to the same extent as Controversial Christian Theology), members who post in this forum are under no absolutely obligation to respond to criticisms or engage in debates concerning their statements, and indeed, many do not.

Also, it is against the rules in General Theology or any other forum to derail a thread, that is to say, to intentionally take it off of the intended topic, or to try to discourage via goading, flaming, harassment or disruptive behavior the person who posts a thread from continuing to participate in it.

Note that I am not accusing anyone of doing this, rather, I am just as a courtesy to any interested reader, yourself included, explaining this aspect of CF.com rules, from the perspective of forum staff, as a routine reminder.

I belief I am following in the spirit of GT and challenging the positions stated here.

In GT you are certainly welcome to challenge any position you see as long as you do not derail the thread or flame, goad, or harass the OP, or teach contrary to the CF.com Statement of Faith, or otherwise ignore the Statement of Purpose.

Further, I would like to impress something on you. I think the best way I have learned is to have to defend what I state as my belief. For then I search, personally from scripture the reason for my belief. I have learned more from searching scripture to defend my belief than just what one has stated in their OP in GT.

If you find questioning of your belief difficult or defense of it troublesome then don't blame me for any angst here.

I myself frequently use the dialectical method to refine my belief, in particular, by discussing with other Orthodox and traditional Christians various aspects of our faith.

 

[JoeP222w]

The free gift came upon all men.

The elect, not all men that have ever existed.

Now if a man chooses not to take advantage of that, that is on him, but God has done all the work necessary to redeem the human race.

And following that logic, if the gift is not effective for all mankind, as evidenced by those in Hell, then God's redemption is not effective for all and God fails in what He endeavors to do, against the almighty will of man. A completely unbiblical notion.

Those who suffer in the next life will be those who have not taken the free gift to all mankind and worked with it to change themselves into the likeness of Christ and attain union with Him, which is eternal salvation or eternal life.

Then God is not sovereign nor almighty by your logic.

 

[JoeP222w]

Before Christ was born on earth, before He could do righteousness and thus become the righteous Son of God, Abel existed and is called "righteous."

Christ did not "do" righteousness. He has always been righteous. Righteousness is not of works, lest anyone should boast.

How is Abel called righteous thousands of years before Christ is born?

Through His faith in God, not by his works.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks.

 

[JoeP222w]

The sort of righteousness spoken of in the OT is someone who habitually (although not perfectly) follows the precepts of God. If the whole People of Israel walks in righteousness (aka follows the Torah) God will allow them to live in the Promised Land. That's the covenant. Nothing to do with eternal life.

Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. (20) For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Galatians 3:21-24 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. (22) But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. (23) Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. (24) So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

 

[Light of the East]

Christ did not "do" righteousness. He has always been righteous. Righteousness is not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Through His faith in God, not by his works.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks.

I've kind of lost track of the theme of this thread. We started with the Theotokos and have wound up discussing the idea of righteousness.

Well, Joe, I certainly am not in a mood to argue with Scripture. The fact is that Abel is righteous.

 

[Light of the East]

The elect, not all men that have ever existed.

That doesn't appear to be what the Scripture is saying:

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

So in this verse, we see that all have been separated from God by the offence of Adam, and all are reunited to God by the gift of grace through Christ's obedience.

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

I honestly don't know how much more clear this could be.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This verse repeats and strengthens what Paul stated in verse 18. The idea of an "elect" who alone receive salvation and the rest are condemned to eternal torment is a hideous perversion of the love of God.

And following that logic, if the gift is not effective for all mankind, as evidenced by those in Hell, then God's redemption is not effective for all and God fails in what He endeavors to do, against the almighty will of man. A completely unbiblical notion.

This is precisely the argument that Patristic Universalists have. Is man's will greater than God's will? Is the power of weak, sinful man greater than the power of the sovereign God? Of course not.

Then God is not sovereign nor almighty by your logic.

On the contrary. If the work of Christ on the Cross is applied to all mankind, and if the will of God is the salvation of all mankind, then how do you say that it is not accomplished? By looking at this life alone? Life on earth, short as it is, is just the starting point of a great journey into the Father's house. Some begin here, some do not. Do not judge what happens in the next life by what happens here in this life.