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Jack Chick's View on Catholicism

Monk Brendan

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i meant padre pio.

Oh! Sorry. Padre Pio was, as far as I know, a genuine Christian, flowing in the Holy Spirit. He could tell you your sins, he could know, from far off, that a person needed healing, and would pray for that person. I've heard a lot about him, and all I can see it that he was a holy man of God
 
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Sammy-San

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Oh! Sorry. Padre Pio was, as far as I know, a genuine Christian, flowing in the Holy Spirit. He could tell you your sins, he could know, from far off, that a person needed healing, and would pray for that person. I've heard a lot about him, and all I can see it that he was a holy man of God

What about the bilocation? that seems almost occult to me.
 
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Monk Brendan

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What about the bilocation? that seems almost occult to me.

This is also something that is known in very holy people. It is not occult, it is a moving of the Holy Spirit.
 
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redleghunter

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But what about the Orthodox Churches? Or other Eastern Churches? They use the same books, and they are used in the Liturgies of the Church

BTW, what is similar between deuterocanonical books and protocanonical books? They are all CANONICAL!
The Roman Catholic canon is smaller than the Eastern Orthodox canon. And the Ethiopian Orthodox canon larger than all.

I guess they did not get the memo the canon was settled. :)
 
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prodromos

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What is the source for your understanding? Athanasius (c. 367), excluded the Book of Esther among the "7 books not in the canon but to be read" along with the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Judith, Tobit, the Didache, and the Shepherd of Hermas. (Athanasius of Alexandria - Wikipedia)

Gregory of Nazianzus (330 – 390) concurred with the canon of Anastasius.

● The list of O.T. books by the Council of Laodicea (363) may have been added later, and is that of Athanasius but with Esther included. It also contains the standard canon of the N.T. except that it omits Revelation, as does Cyril, thought to be due to excessive use of it by the Montanist cults

John of Damascus, eminent theologian of the Eastern Church in the 8th century, and Nicephorus, patriarch of Constantinople in the 9th century also rejected the apocrypha, as did others, in part or in whole.

● The fourth century historian Euesibius also provides an early Christian list of both Old and New Testament books. In his Ecclesiastical History (written about A.D. 324), in three places quoting from Josephus, Melito and Origen, lists of the books (slightly differing) according to the Hebrew Canon. These he calls in the first place 'the Canonical Scriptures of the Old Testament, undisputed among the Hebrews;' and again,'the acknowledged Scriptures of the Old Testament;' and, lastly, 'the Holy Scriptures of the Old Testament.' In his Chronicle he distinctly separates the Books of Maccabees from the 'Divine Scriptures;' and elsewhere mentions Ecclesiasticus and Wisdom as 'controverted' books. (Eusebius on the Canon of Scripture)

Cyril of Jerusalem (d. circa. 385 AD) exhorts his readers “Of these read the two and twenty books, but have nothing to do with the apocryphal writings. Study earnestly these only which we read openly in the Church. Far wiser and more pious than thyself were the Apostles, and the bishops of old time, the presidents of the Church who handed down these books. Being therefore a child of the Church, trench thou not upon its statutes. And of the Old Testament, as we have said, study the two and twenty books, which, if thou art desirous of learning, strive to remember by name, as I recite them.” (Cyril of Jerusalem on the Canon of Scripture)

His lists supports the canon adopted by the Protestants, combining books after the Hebrew canon and excludes the apocrypha, though he sometimes used them, as per the standard practice by which the apocrypha was printed in Protestant Bibles, and includes Baruch as part of Jeremiah.

● Likewise Rufinus:

38.But it should also be known that there are other books which are called not "canonical" but "ecclesiastical" by the ancients: 5 that is, the Wisdom attributed to Solomon, and another Wisdom attributed to the son of Sirach, which the Latins called by the title Ecclesiasticus, designating not the author of the book but its character. To the same class belong the book of Tobit and the book of Judith, and the books of Maccabees.

With the New Testament there is the book which is called the Shepherd of Hermas, and that which is called The Two Ways 6 and the Judgment of Peter.7 They were willing to have all these read in the churches but not brought forward for the confirmation of doctrine. The other writings they named "apocrypha,"8 which they would not have read in the churches.

These are what the fathers have handed down to us, which, as I said, I have thought it opportune to set forth in this place, for the instruction of those who are being taught the first elements of the Church and of the Faith, that they may know from what fountains of the Word of God they should draw for drinking. (Rufinus of Aquileia on the Canon of Scripture)

●Summing up most of the above, the Catholic Encyclopedia states,

At Jerusalem there was a renascence, perhaps a survival, of Jewish ideas, the tendency there being distinctly unfavourable to the deuteros. St. Cyril of that see, while vindicating for the Church the right to fix the Canon, places them among the apocrypha and forbids all books to be read privately which are not read in the churches. In Antioch and Syria the attitude was more favourable. St. Epiphanius shows hesitation about the rank of the deuteros; he esteemed them, but they had not the same place as the Hebrew books in his regard. The historian Eusebius attests the widespread doubts in his time; he classes them as antilegomena, or disputed writings, and, like Athanasius, places them in a class intermediate between the books received by all and the apocrypha. The 59th (or 60th) canon of the provincial Council of Laodicea (the authenticity of which however is contested) gives a catalogue of the Scriptures entirely in accord with the ideas of St. Cyril of Jerusalem. On the other hand, the Oriental versions and Greek manuscripts of the period are more liberal; the extant ones have all the deuterocanonicals and, in some cases, certain apocrypha.

The influence of Origen's and Athanasius's restricted canon naturally spread to the West. St. Hilary of Poitiers and Rufinus followed their footsteps, excluding the deuteros from canonical rank in theory, but admitting them in practice. The latter styles them "ecclesiastical" books, but in authority unequal to the other Scriptures. St. Jerome cast his weighty suffrage on the side unfavourable to the disputed books... (Catholic Encyclopedia, Canon of the Old Testament, eph. mine)

● The Catholic Encyclopedia also states as regards the Middle Ages,

In the Latin Church, all through the Middle Ages [5th century to the 15th century] we find evidence of hesitation about the character of the deuterocanonicals. There is a current friendly to them, another one distinctly unfavourable to their authority and sacredness, while wavering between the two are a number of writers whose veneration for these books is tempered by some perplexity as to their exact standing, and among those we note St. Thomas Aquinas. Few are found to unequivocally acknowledge their canonicity. The prevailing attitude of Western medieval authors is substantially that of the Greek Fathers. The chief cause of this phenomenon in the West is to be sought in the influence, direct and indirect, of St. Jerome's depreciating Prologus (CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Canon of the Old Testament)

None of which were ecumenical=infallible, thus not representing all the churches, and to be consistent with the Maryson poster who dismisses non-infallible statements, then these are not determinitive of the canon either. Webster finds,

“The seventh Ecumenical Council officially accepted the Trullan Canons as part of the sixth Ecumenical Council. The importance of this is underscored by canon II of Trullo which officially authorized the decrees of Carthage, thereby elevating them to a place of ecumenical authority. However, the Council also sanctioned were the canons of Athanasius and Amphilochius that had to do with the canon and both of these fathers rejected the major books of the Apocrypha. In addition, the Council sanctioned the Apostolical canons which, in canon eighty-five, gave a list of canonical books which included 3 Maccabees, a book never accepted as canonical in the West.101 Furthermore, the Apostolical canons were condemned and rejected as apocryphal in the decrees of Popes Gelasius and Hormisdas.102 Thus indicating that the approval given was not specific but general.” (Untitled Document)

This may help; Triablogue: Eastern Orthodox Acceptance Of The Hebrew Canon

What confusion? It as well understood that he rejected the deutros as Scripture proper, even if he was later induced to include them in his Vulgate (which was not a uniform publication). Some think Jerome later defended the apocrypha based on comments about Daniel, but which is countered here.

Jerome wrote in his Prologue to the Books of the Kings,

“This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a helmeted [i.e. defensive] introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is outside of them must be placed aside among the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus the Son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd [of Hermes?] are not in the canon. The first book of Maccabees is found in Hebrew, but the second is Greek, as can be proved from the very style.

In his preface to Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs he also states,

“As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it read these two volumes for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church.” (Shaff, Henry Wace, A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, p. 492)

J. N. D. Kelly finds,

"Jerome, conscious of the difficulty of arguing with Jews on the basis of books they spurned and anyhow regarding the Hebrew original as authoritative, was adamant that anything not found in it was ‘to be classed among the apocrypha’, not in the canon; later he grudgingly conceded that the Church read some of these books for edification, but not to support doctrine."Kelly, [J. N. D. (1960). Early Christian Doctrines. San Francisco, USA: Harper. p. 55.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states,
Obviously, the inferior rank to which the deuteros were relegated by authorities like Origen, Athanasius, and Jerome, was due to too rigid a conception of canonicity, one demanding that a book, to be entitled to this supreme dignity, must be received by all, must have the sanction of Jewish antiquity, and must moreover be adapted not only to edification, but also to the "confirmation of the doctrine of the Church", to borrow Jerome's phrase. (Catholic Encyclopedia, Canon of the Old Testament; CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Canon of the Old Testament)

In his famous ‘Prologus Galeatus’, or Preface to his translation of Samuel and Kings, he declares that everything not Hebrew should be classed with the apocrypha, and explicitly says that Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Tobias,and Judith are not in the Canon. These books, he adds, are read in the churches for the edification of the people, and not for the confirmation of revealed doctrine” (Catholic Encyclopedia, Canon of the Old Testament)

The distinction then is that while “good,” they were not for doctrinal use. As the above source states regarding St. Athanasius, “Following the precedent of Origen and the Alexandrian tradition, the saintly doctor recognized no other formal canon of the Old Testament than the Hebrew one; but also, faithful to the same tradition, he practically admitted the deutero books to a Scriptural dignity, as is evident from his general usage.

An excerpt from the Prologue to the Glossa ordinaria (an assembly of “glosses,” that of brief notations of the meaning of a word or wording in the margins of the Vulgate Bible) expresses this distinction:

The canonical books have been brought about through the dictation of the Holy Spirit. It is not known, however, at which time or by which authors the non-canonical or apocryphal books were produced. Since, nevertheless, they are very good and useful, and nothing is found in them which contradicts the canonical books, the church reads them and permits them to be read by the faithful for devotion and edification. Their authority, however, is not considered adequate for proving those things which come into doubt or contention,or for confirming the authority of ecclesiastical dogma, as blessed Jerome states in his prologue to Judith and to the books of Solomon. But the canonical books are of such authority that whatever is contained therein is held to be true firmly and indisputably, and likewise that which is clearly demonstrated from them. (note 124, written in AD 1498, and also found in a work attributed to Walafrid Strabo in the tenth century... Untitled Document)

This question was not only a matter of controversy between Catholics and Protestants: it was also the subject of a lively discussion even between Catholic theologians. St Jerome, that great authority in all scriptural questions, had accepted the Jewish canon of the Old Testament. The books of Judith, Esther, Tobias, Machabees, Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, which the majority of the Fathers, on the authority of the Septuagint, treated as canonical, Jerome described as apocryphal, that is, as not included in the canon though suitable for the edification of the faithful… — Jedin,, History of the Council of Trent, pgs 55,56

Following Jerome, Cajetan also relegated the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament to a secondary place where they could serve piety but not the teaching of revealed doctrine.Jared Wicks tr., Cajetan Responds: A Reader in Reformation Controversy (Washington: The Catholic University Press of America, 1978). See also Cardinal Cajetan, "Commentary on all the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament," Bruce Metzger, An Introduction to the Apocrypha (New York: Oxford, 1957), p. 180.)

Part one of two since this forum's software is flaky on formatting, adding BB quotes and changing formatting on its own! And jumping to the top if you cut any word.
Just a note that in the East, the terms "Deuterocanonical" and "Apocrypha" refer to completely different books. They are not synonyms.
 
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Sammy-San

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Oh! Sorry. Padre Pio was, as far as I know, a genuine Christian, flowing in the Holy Spirit. He could tell you your sins, he could know, from far off, that a person needed healing, and would pray for that person. I've heard a lot about him, and all I can see it that he was a holy man of God

Did you hear it from people who knew him?
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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I am a student of history--especially Church history, and while I admit that SOME of the excesses of the bishops and abbots, priests and so on were wrong, the TRUTH of the Catholic faith is NOT wrong, and did NOT need reforming.

The issues that Martin Luther had with the Catholic Church was its practice of making people pay to get their relatives out of purgatory. These were called "indulgences". He also objected to the money-making practice of displaying relics and charging visitors a fee for viewing them. Apparently there were so many pieces of the cross of Christ displayed around the different churches and in Rome, that if all the wood was put together, it would have been enough to make all the crosses that Spartacus and his followers were crucified on all along the Appian Way! Also, one big money spinner was a display of Mary's breast milk in a glass container in Rome. The money made from these financed the great Catholic Cathedrals around the Catholic world at the time.

The reason why the Catholic Church so opposed Luther was not to do with his doctrine concerning Justification By Faith, it was his opposition to Indulgences and Relics. The opposition was there because the Church was afraid of losing such a large amount of revenue.

Luther would have preferred to stick with the Church and reform it from within, but the opposition was so fierce that he and his followers had to find other places to worship, and so the Lutheran Church was born.
 
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Jack Isaacks

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This is also something that is known in very holy people. It is not occult, it is a moving of the Holy Spirit.

There are stories of something very close to bilocation in the NT. The Risen Jesus disappeared from the two pilgrims to Emmaus. Deacon St. Philip was apparently teleported from Jerusalem to the oasis where he met the Ethiopian Eunuch, and after the baptism was teleported back.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
 
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You do realize Tertullian was being facetious?

Plus, wasn't Tertullian a heretic?
I seem to remember that he started off with Montanist views but rejected them in favour of orthodox theology. It is interesting that recent research reveals that the Montanists were genuine believers who wanted to bring people back to Christ because of the decline of the established church. It was considered heretical because the Catholic Church opposed it in the same way it opposed any new move of God. It is interesting to note that the Montanists experienced miraculous healings and deliverances where these things had largely declined in most of the established churches. The only evidence we have of the movement is from the Catholic point of view. But the researchers have read between the lines of the Court transcripts and negative accounts to discover that the Montanists were remarkably similar to the modern Charismatic movement. Of course I know that some will say. "Ha ha! They were heretics all right! Just like today's Charismatics!" Be that as it may, it shows that its foundational doctrines concerning the death and resurrection of Christ and the nature of Christ and God were sound.
 
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Jack Isaacks

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(That last question is of particular personal interest to me given that I am a proponent of full and immediate ecumenical reconciliation between the EO and OO churches, and we disagree on the number of councils)

Oh, my dear brother Paul, one of my dearest prayer requests is restoration to visible Eucharistic communion among the pre-Reformation Churches.

In my own studies of Coptic Liturgical texts (lex orandi lex crendi), I see no difference in the doctrines of our churches.

My own plan for helping bringing about this reconciliation we both long for is to venerate each other's saints, especially the New Martyrs, and emphasize what we hold in common.

Beloved Pope Shenouda, pray to God for us.

New Coptic Martyrs in Libya, pray to God for us.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
 
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prodromos

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It is interesting that recent research reveals that the Montanists were genuine believers who wanted to bring people back to Christ because of the decline of the established church.
What research would that be? Who are the authors and what are their sources?
 
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~Anastasia~

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I seem to remember that he started off with Montanist views but rejected them in favour of orthodox theology. It is interesting that recent research reveals that the Montanists were genuine believers who wanted to bring people back to Christ because of the decline of the established church. It was considered heretical because the Catholic Church opposed it in the same way it opposed any new move of God. It is interesting to note that the Montanists experienced miraculous healings and deliverances where these things had largely declined in most of the established churches. The only evidence we have of the movement is from the Catholic point of view. But the researchers have read between the lines of the Court transcripts and negative accounts to discover that the Montanists were remarkably similar to the modern Charismatic movement. Of course I know that some will say. "Ha ha! They were heretics all right! Just like today's Charismatics!" Be that as it may, it shows that its foundational doctrines concerning the death and resurrection of Christ and the nature of Christ and God were sound.
Yes, the Montanists remind me of Pentecostals in some ways.

I wouldn't be claiming similarity to them in many ways as a thing to be desired though ...
 
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DrBubbaLove

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And I have read that among other authorities, different canons were sanctioned by the Council in Trullo (Quinisext Council) in 692 and the seventh Ecumenical Council (787)

And that just prior to Trent, The Polyglot Bible (1514) of Cardinal Ximenes separated the Apocrypha from the canon of the Old Testament and soon received papal sanction.

While there was a general acceptance of the larger canon, that "the Church had long accepted" infers a uniformity that did not exist until after Trent (esp. beyond the canon), and thus the significant debate during Trent substantiated in past threads here.

Rather, it is hardly true at all to suggest they were not sure about those 7 books until Trent declares it, or else there would not have been debate, or if a RC can be sure about what it is God without an an infallible decree, then it minimizes what RCs maximize when faced with opposition (as seen here, to dismiss contrary ECF judgments).

Moreover, while RCC ratified a list almost 1200 years old, the Protestant canon is more ancient than that of Rome's, reflecting a more ancient canon held by Palestinian Jews from before the third century, and which is affirmed in Catholicism: “the protocanonical books of the Old Testament correspond with those of the Bible of the Hebrews, and the Old Testament as received by Protestants.” “...the Hebrew Bible, which became the Old Testament of Protestantism.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia>Canon of the Old Testament; htttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm)

The Protestant canon of the Old Testament is the same as the Palestinian canon. (The Catholic Almanac, 1960, p. 217)

In addition,

Luther and the Reformers (overall) treated the Apocrypha as many others did, which was that these books were not to be held as equal to the Scriptures, but were useful and good to read, but not for establishment of doctrine. Luther's Bible included almost all the apocryphal books of the Catholic canon, wanting them to be available despite not being qualified to be classed as Scripture, and therefore he placed apocryphal works between the Old and New Testaments following the ancient practice of Jerome, who had separately placed such at the end of the Old Testament. (The New Oxford Annotated Bible with the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical Books, by Michael David Coogan, Marc Zvi Brettler, p. 457)

Likewise, as J. N. D. Kelly states,

For the Jews of Palestine the limits of the canon (the term is Christian, and was not used in Judaism) were rigidly fixed; they drew a sharp line of demarca- tion between the books which 'defiled the hands', i.e. were sacred, and other religiously edifying writings. (J. N. D. KELLY, EARLY CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES, FOURTH EDITION, ADAM & CHARLES BLACK LONDON, p. 53 )

Also,

“Luther's translation of the Bible contained all of its books. Luther also translated and included the Apocrypha, saying, "These books are not held equal to the Scriptures, but are useful and good to read." He expressed his thoughts on the canon in prefaces placed at the beginning of particular Biblical books. In these prefaces, he either questioned or doubted the canonicity of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation (his Catholic contemporaries, Erasmus and Cardinal Cajetan, likewise questioned the canonicity of certain New Testament books). Of his opinion, he allows for the possibility of his readers to disagree with his conclusions. Of the four books, it is possible Luther's opinion fluctuated on two (Hebrews and Revelation). Luther was of the opinion that the writers of James and Jude were not apostles, therefore these books were not canonical. Still, he used them and preached from them.” (Five More Luther Myths; Alpha and Omega Ministries - Toward a Defense of the Faith)
Reading a collection of work the Church itself preserved for us and summaries of it (encyclopedia) that present an entire view, to then form an opinion from it based in large part on something already believed is something many people do. Your view of it would be why you are Protestant and not Catholic.

Again, and this was also evident in my prior postings, the record has plenty of people including my patron Saint expressing doubts about the "level of inspiration" of these 7 books. It also has plenty of people that apparently remained silent on it - making no comments. It also has people that defended against the opinion - inspiration from God is inspiration. Yet NO ONE until the protestors of the Reformation were insisting levels of inspiration was such a disparity that something needed to be done about it. Even Saint Thomas with his doubts, quotes from that collection of books along with the rest of the OT without making any distinction. Way back when Saint Jerome felt compelled to write his prologue to the Vulgate commenting on "levels of inspiration" the Church had long before that ALREADY been using these seven books and it was known to be apart of Liturgies (as in verses from them read in Mass). That usage and the relative uniformity of East/West did not happen over night.

So this whole idea that ample evidence of people talking about levels of inspiration indicated the same dispute the Reformers were having with these books (and apparently more in some cases) is nonsense. Unlike the rather slanted view of many Protestants today, the Church does not insist on uniformity on every single thing, (young earth creationism would be another example). However the Church will suffer obstinate dissension only so long after first attempting correction. Wars had already been fought and were continuing (not all involving Rome) so it was clear these dissenters were not coming back anytime soon. This forces the Church to act on many issues to take a stand against all stated dissension at that time, the canon was only one issue. With ZERO evidence in almost 1200 years of historic record of any one getting even a slap on the wrist for talking about "levels of inspiration", to suggest then that all of sudden it becomes a major issue after such a long time is a rather dim view of the Church. We had and will have our share of obstinate knuckleheads among us as all groups of human do, but people should give the smarter Catholics a little more credit than that.

That a Protestor today would want to view the Church that way I would not doubt. Been there done that most of my life. People often find what they are looking for approaching history that way. Saying to us, ah there see you are lying about it, we have people talking about level of inspirations going back to Saint Jerome. Yes, but I mentioned that too in my first detailed post on the matter. Thanks for pointing that out again and adding to it a rather low opinion of me and those of us who would ask what the point is. What goes unsaid in all the cherry picking of various Church records is an equal voice from either silence on the matter or direct defense from essentially saying inspiration is inspiration, what do levels matter, especially when in practice we all treat these books the same as any other. Which was also mentioned in my posts.

What the Church cannot tolerate would be some one holding that opinion (that there are levels of inspiration) and wanting to force that opinion on everyone else when obviously the Church had long allowed both opinions to stand without any practical distinction in usage. That equality in usage means regardless of their level of inspiration view, the Spirit was leading no one to abandon equal usage of these books in the Bible. So declaring again after 1200 years that the canon remains untouched, unchanged and is actually now will forever more be ONLY these 73 books, was only done because of the obstinance of the protestors against the Church.

Personally I actually kind of wish they had not closed the canon, not because some books need to be tossed but with a hope that more might one day be uncovered. But with years that hope would have to be a very faint one, unless some aliens visited and return copies to us I guess.:oldthumbsup:
 
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This is also something that is known in very holy people. It is not occult, it is a moving of the Holy Spirit.

Indeed. St. John Maximovitch is known to have been in two places at once.
 
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Oh! Sorry. Padre Pio was, as far as I know, a genuine Christian, flowing in the Holy Spirit. He could tell you your sins, he could know, from far off, that a person needed healing, and would pray for that person. I've heard a lot about him, and all I can see it that he was a holy man of God

A bit like St. Seraphim of Sarov, or Elder Paisios the Athonite and his followers Elder Joseph the Hesychast and Elder Ephrem, the hegumen of St. Anthony's in Florence, AZ
 
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Paul Yohannan

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You do realize Tertullian was being facetious?

Plus, wasn't Tertullian a heretic?

The post linked to looks like an interloper to me. The first Roman bishop to claim the title of Pontifex Maximus was Leo, who in the OO church we do not regard as a saint because we disagree with his involvement at Chalcedon in the excommunication of St. Dioscorus.

Tertullian did become a Montanist. His earlier theological writing is useful, but his later material was typical Montanist-rigorist nonsense. It is lamentable.
 
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Another comedic example from Divine Comedy store. As is the ability of some camels to extrude part of their digestive track and let it hang in a rather disgusting looking bag from their mouth. Rather showing we are what we eat perhaps or the idea some are led by their stomachs - maybe am struggling at comedic expression here I guess.

Eeeeewwwwwwwwwwww

I did not realize camels did that. Which ones have this ability? What about Llamas and Alpacas?
 
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