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Jack Chick's View on Catholicism

MarysSon

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So you agree with noted Catholic historian Jedin that even leading into Trent there was a Catholic tradition of the proto and deutero canons?

That this debate was not some machination of Luther, other reformers and Protestants in general?

That noted Athanasius, a Doctor of both the East and West Catholic Church has some misgivings for the deutero books?

I forgot to add to my post to my buddy @DrBubbaLove the following from another noted Trent era scholar, Cardinal Cajetan.

In 1532, Cajetan wrote his Commentary on All the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament (dedicated to Pope Clement VII ). In this work, Cajetan leaves out the entirety of the Apocrypha since he did not consider it to be Canonical:

“Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the Bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the Bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage.”

Cajetan Responds


It is worth noting that one of the titles that Constantine acquired in 308 was Pontifax Maximus (Great Bridge Builder) and referred to his rank within the pagan religion of Rome.

You can list ALL of the Doctors of the Church and it wouldn't make a difference unless they were infallible.
Athanasius wasn't - nor were ANY of the people you mentioned. The Council of Trent WAS an infallible Authority.
 
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redleghunter

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You can list ALL of the Doctors of the Church and it wouldn't make a difference unless they were infallible.
Athanasius wasn't - nor were ANY of the people you mentioned. The Council of Trent WAS an infallible Authority.

Thank you for that admission. It truly makes things quite clear.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Well.having followed the thread closely .I'm honest I see the tag "Catholic ' and due to past experience go on to ignore most of what they waffle on about because it's tired old rhetoric repeating traditions on traditions and almost never adheres to scripture in its full context.

As for baptizing the dead..he meant us ..those who were dead in their trespass and sin ..that's all of us before we are made alive again in Christ. Together with Christ.
I don't endorse chick what's his name. Just agreed with a certain post and disagreed with another.
Now I'm unsubscribing .
Interesting take on "baptism for the dead". Probably the most difficult to explain why any Christian of that era would imagine they could get Baptized in the place of another living person.

If one has to imagine something I suppose to help explain that passage that is good as anything else proposed. It is a bit harder to see than simply saying they were doing something wrong trying to get themselves Baptized on behalf of someone who was literally dead and Saint Paul condemned them for it - which is what most Protestors claim.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Tertullian WENT MONTANIST on us at the end -- he wrote good stuff before -- I dunno if he is "classed" a hairy-tick or not
I rather like his take on the Bread of Life (so does the RCC, probably others as well).
 
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Anto9us

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Both Tertullian and Origen were ultimately "labelled heretics" -- in at least Origen's case, that was posthumous

Both those guys had good stuff on THE TRINITY early on

To me, HERESY deals with an incorrect view of THE NATURE, DEITY, AND PERSON OF CHRIST

there IS OTHER unsound doctrine THAT IS short of heresy

Athanasius was first I know of to list all 27 NT books (and no others)

The Cappadocians had great stuff on TRINITY -- being Basil, his brother Gregory, and his "other brother Gregory"

If NICENE CREED is normative here for CF purposes -- and we all go by it -- with only Liliputan differences about FILIOQUE;

then we CF Nicene Country Clubbers are NOT HAIRY-TICK; though we may disagree about stuff less brobdingnangian than the points of the Creed

as far as what I thought "baptism for the dead" might have meant, I never heard what was posted above.

I had the thought that in the early days, it may have been possible for a person to go to a catacomb meeting, accept Christ -- and then get killed by persecution before they had a chance to get water-baptized; later he/she was 'baptized by proxy' among those who knew they had made a decision for Christ -- I have never heard anyone else propound that view either
 
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DrBubbaLove

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By Acts ch 15 -- it is clear that Peter was NOT "in charge" of the Jerusalem church -- it was James -- the ADELPHOS of the Lord; most consider James a half-brother of Jesus by an earlier marriage of Joseph, adelphos means brother or close relative

Peter was skeert of "those from James" and withdrew from eating with Gentiles when THE JAMES GANG showed up, Paul withstood him to his face about it, remember?

If there was a "chair of Peter", then James was sittin' in it by the time we get to the first council on what to do about the Gentiles.
Actually James is Bishop of Jerusalem by that time and as the logical place for the Church at that time to hold a universal meeting of leadership, the local Bishop would be the host. Saint Peter has not died yet, so he retains the leadership position given to him until he passes that authority to the next man. Rome in that day was viewed by many as the center of the civilized world, so by the time he was martyred it makes sense they would have decided to make Saint Peter of the Church there, as in local Bishop.

That is the idea anyway, and all this in ACTS occurring long before the line of succession from Saint Peter was associated with the Bishop of Rome. Believe the Pope's election now comes first, then He is made the Bishop of Rome if that helps, guess I doubt it does for many.

Jack Chic of course had a lot to say about all this. They have cleaned up the comics a bit if what was posted here is representative of current handouts the old style was very much titillating in the style of many comics of that day. So the old ones were visually as well as textually vulgar and crude. The Priest in the comic posted might be drooling for example when looking at the young lady, "subtle" stuff like that.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Both Tertullian and Origen were ultimately "labelled heretics" -- in at least Origen's case, that was posthumous

Both those guys had good stuff on THE TRINITY early on

To me, HERESY deals with an incorrect view of THE NATURE, DEITY, AND PERSON OF CHRIST

there IS OTHER unsound doctrine THAT IS short of heresy

Athanasius was first I know of to list all 27 NT books (and no others)

The Cappadocians had great stuff on TRINITY -- being Basil, his brother Gregory, and his "other brother Gregory"

If NICENE CREED is normative here for CF purposes -- and we all go by it -- with only Liliputan differences about FILIOQUE;

then we CF Nicene Country Clubbers are NOT HAIRY-TICK; though we may disagree about stuff less brobdingnangian than the points of the Creed

as far as what I thought "baptism for the dead" might have meant, I never heard what was posted above.

I had the thought that in the early days, it may have been possible for a person to go to a catacomb meeting, accept Christ -- and then get killed by persecution before they had a chance to get water-baptized; later he/she was 'baptized by proxy' among those who knew they had made a decision for Christ -- I have never heard anyone else propound that view either
Heresy covers a wide range of errors, and yes many have been made concerning God the Father, Son of God/Jesus and the Spirit. Think it is important to note that when first used and long time after, it never meant non-Christian.
Some Protestants today mistakenly think Catholics mean "non-Christian" when the label is used, especially if directed at something they posted.
 
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Anto9us

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Some Protestants today mistakenly think Catholics mean "non-Christian" when the label is used, especially if directed at something they posted.

Then those Protestants are JACK (Chick) PROTESTANTS and gravely in error
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Greetings and Salutations Brother in Christ!

There is a long history of debate leading into Trent of the protocanonical books of the OT and the deuterocanonical books.

The Roman Catholic historian (and expert on Trent) Hubert Jedin, waded into the dispute leading up to and during Trent. He noted one respected theologian stanchly loyal to the Pope, Cardinal Seripando. Jedin explained “he was aligned with the leaders of a minority that was outstanding for its theological scholarship” at the Council of Trent.

Jedin elaborates:

“[Seripando was] Impressed by the doubts of St. Jerome, Rufinus, and St. John Damascene about the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament, Seripando favored a distinction in the degrees of authority of the books of the Florentine canon. The highest authority among all the books of the Old Testament must be accorded those which Christ Himself and the apostles quoted in the New Testament, especially the Psalms. But the rule of citation in the New Testament does not indicate the difference of degree in the strict sense of the word, because certain Old Testament books not quoted in the New Testament are equal in authority to those quoted. St. Jerome gives an actual difference in degree of authority when he gives a higher place to those books which are adequate to prove a dogma than to those which are read merely for edification. The former, the protocanonical books, are “libri canonici et authentici“; Tobias, Judith, the Book of Wisdom, the books of Esdras, Ecclesiasticus, the books of the Maccabees, and Baruch are only “canonici et ecclesiastici” and make up the canon morum in contrast to the canon fidei. These, Seripando says in the words of St. Jerome, are suited for the edification of the people, but they are not authentic, that is, not sufficient to prove a dogma. Seripando emphasized that in spite of the Florentine canon the question of a twofold canon was still open and was treated as such by learned men in the Church. Without doubt he was thinking of Cardinal Cajetan, who in his commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews accepted St. Jerome’s view which had had supporters throughout the Middle Ages.”
Source: Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), pp. 270-271.

Jedin continues:

“For the last time [Seripando] expressed his doubts [to the Council of Trent] about accepting the deuterocanonical books into the canon of faith. Together with the apostolic traditions the so-called apostolic canons were being accepted, and the eighty-fifth canon listed the Book of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) as non-canonical. Now, he said, it would be contradictory to accept, on the one hand, the apostolic traditions as the foundation of faith and, on the other, to directly reject one of them.”
Source: Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), p. 278.

Catholic historian Hubert Jedin also adds later:

“In his opposition to accepting the Florentine canon and the equalization of traditions with Holy Scripture, Seripando did not stand alone. In the particular congregation of March 23, the learned Dominican Bishop Bertano of Fano had already expressed the view that Holy Scripture possessed greater authority than the traditions because the Scriptures were unchangeable; that only offenders against the biblical canon should come under the anathema, not those who deny the principle of tradition; that it would be unfortunate if the Council limited itself to the apostolic canons, because the Protestants would say that the abrogation of some of these traditions was arbitrary and represented an abuse… Another determined opponent of putting traditions on a par with Holy Scripture, as well as the anathema, was the Dominican Nacchianti. The Servite general defended the view that all the evangelical truths were contained in the Bible, and he subscribed to the canon of St. Jerome, as did also Madruzzo and Fonseca on April 1. While Seripando abandoned his view as a lost cause, Madruzzo, the Carmelite general, and the Bishop of Agde stood for the limited canon, and the bishops of Castellamare and Caorle urged the related motion to place the books of Judith, Baruch, and Machabees in the “canon ecclesiae.” From all this it is evident that Seripando was by no means alone in his views. In his battle for the canon of St. Jerome and against the anathema and the parity of traditions with Holy Scripture, he was aligned with the leaders of a minority that was outstanding for its theological scholarship.”
Source: Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), pp. 281-282.



Of course the slam dunk answer is "what difference does it make" because Trent settled this. Which is correct from a 16th Century Catholic Trent position.

I wanted to point out that leading into Trent within the Church herself, there was a long tradition dating back to the Athanasius canon of the deuterocanonical OT books being for edification and not equal to in authority of the protocanonical OT books for doctrinal authority.

With names such as Athanasius, St. Jerome, Rufinus, and St. John Damascene (couple of those names are Doctors of the Church), the protocanonical vs. deuterocanonical was a Catholic tradition. Until Trent.

The notions that Luther, other Reformers or Protestants in general ‘made this stuff’ up and thatit was a 16th Century AD machination no longer holds water (not saying that is your particular argument). The evidence shows there was even dissent within the walls of the Council of Trent.

Finally, given there was such debate within the walls of the Council of Trent, also shows evidence the OT canon was not settled in the 4th Century AD.


Source material can be found at this Google Books site:

Papal Legate at the Council of Trent

Hubert Jedin was a Catholic Church historian from Germany, whose publications specialized on the history of ecumenical councils in general and the Council of Trent in particular, on which he published a 2400-page history over the years 1951-1975.
Was vaguely aware of many of these details and the Protestant slant of it here I think overstates the point. As I recall anytime the issue came up of what books to read in Mass (long before Trent), which is really driving those most of the debates, once these books were added to that list, they were never removed. Other books came and went, including some that remain to this day in the various early divisions from the Church, again long before Trent. So long before Trent there are well established and held since lists of books in the Canon. The issue of the Canon is only left open by the RCC until Trent with the realization that perhaps works hidden in some cave some where could be found, studied, verified in some manner and then added (taking a long time at that).

The Reformation forces the issue because even before it was clear the protestors would never return to union with the RCC, it was made known that some of them wanted to shorten the Canon - including the books in question but also challenges to more than few NT books. The Church felt compelled to stand against the protestors and declare the Canon that had remained unchallenged for centuries officially closed (which is rather unfortunate for the RCC should some lost writing of Saint Paul be discovered for example). Anyway that is what I recall.
 
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prodromos

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Yes, us who are still alive pray for each other. Dead Christians are not omnipresent. They can't hear you.
Why would they need to be omnipresent? The Apostles did many things that only God can do. They knew people's hearts as Jesus did, they healed people as Jesus did, cloths sent out by Paul healed people and drove out demons like the woman was healed by touching Jesus' robe. No one takes issue with the above 'divine attributes', but as soon as you mention the possibility that God may allow His servants to share in His ability to hear the simultaneous supplications of numerous believers, it is immediately dismissed?
Also, the nearly 2000 years of experience in the Orthodox Church demonstrates that they do hear us.
 
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redleghunter

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A couple of things - including a correction.

While Jerome did have his misgivings about the canonicity of the Deuterocanonical Books - he later explained that it was only due to the objections from the Jews he had received assistance from while translating the OT into Latin. In fact, he used excepts from these books in his debates, referring to them as "Sacred Scripture."

As for Trent - this Council merely closed the previously open Canon of Scripture that had already been declared and reiterated more than 5 times in the previous 1200 years.

During a period of 37 years at the end of the 4th and the turn of the 5th century, the Canon of Scripture was formally declared and confirmed FIVE times. It is the same canon of Scripture that was around during the Protestant Revolt and that is still in use today by the Catholic Church. It was during the so-called Reformation and subsequent periods that rebellious, prideful men had problems with the canon and decided that some of the books were uninspired. Luther wanted to remove several books including Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation. Calvin and Zwingli did not believe Revelation to be inspired and wanted to remove it as well.

- The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified.
- It was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo eleven years later (393).
- At the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.
- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.
- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.
Which one of those councils or synods were ecumenical?
 
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redleghunter

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Was vaguely aware of many of these details and the Protestant slant of it here I think overstates the point. As I recall anytime the issue came up of what books to read in Mass (long before Trent), which is really driving those most of the debates, once these books were added to that list, they were never removed. Other books came and went, including some that remain to this day in the various early divisions from the Church, again long before Trent. So long before Trent there are well established and held since lists of books in the Canon. The issue of the Canon is only left open by the RCC until Trent with the realization that perhaps works hidden in some cave some where could be found, studied, verified in some manner and then added (taking a long time at that).

The Reformation forces the issue because even before it was clear the protestors would never return to union with the RCC, it was made known that some of them wanted to shorten the Canon - including the books in question but also challenges to more than few NT books. The Church felt compelled to stand against the protestors and declare the Canon that had remained unchallenged for centuries officially closed (which is rather unfortunate for the RCC should some lost writing of Saint Paul be discovered for example). Anyway that is what I recall.
What's the Protestant slant.

I quoted a Catholic historian who quoted several, and in good standing, Catholic theologians at Trent.
 
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redleghunter

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Interesting take on "baptism for the dead". Probably the most difficult to explain why any Christian of that era would imagine they could get Baptized in the place of another living person.

If one has to imagine something I suppose to help explain that passage that is good as anything else proposed. It is a bit harder to see than simply saying they were doing something wrong trying to get themselves Baptized on behalf of someone who was literally dead and Saint Paul condemned them for it - which is what most Protestors claim.
If it any consolation, the Mormons baptize dead people.
 
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redleghunter

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The Reformation forces the issue because even before it was clear the protestors would never return to union with the RCC, it was made known that some of them wanted to shorten the Canon - including the books in question but also challenges to more than few NT books. The Church felt compelled to stand against the protestors and declare the Canon that had remained unchallenged for centuries officially closed (which is rather unfortunate for the RCC should some lost writing of Saint Paul be discovered for example). Anyway that is what I recall.

Luther when speaking of Revelation and James, did question apostolic authorship. However never deep sixed any NT books. His translation had 27 NT books.

I will point out I disagree with Luther's reasoning. I will also point out he was not the only 16th Century theologian who had misgivings about some NT books.

Once again, we have Cardinal Catajen who was more zealous than Luther, yet was not excommunicated and actually a top theologian at Trent:

Cajetan Responds by Jared Wicks:

Cajetan's biblical commentaries occasioned no little admiratio. From Luther, there is a recorded remark, "Cajetan, in his later days, has become Lutheran." Considerable zeal was expended by Ambrosius Catharinus, O.P., against the exegetical work of his retired Master General. Catharinus submitted a denunciation before the still acerbic faculty in Paris and proceedings began that could have led to another book-burning Clement VII intervened in a letter to the Parisian professors in September, 1533, to protect the man who was by then the Pope's regular source of valued theological advice. Proceedings were halted at this time in Paris, but not before an open letter of the Parisian theologians had begun to circulate listing the censurable propositions excerpted from the commentaries. The Sorbonne masters charged Cajetan with imprudently taking these notions from Erasmus or even Luther. The letter ended with a stinging rebuke of Cajetan's rashness in abandoning the long approved Vulgate text to base his work on new versions in no way guaranteed for their exactness. In 1534 a Wittenberg printer, no doubt with considerable glee over this discomfiture of Luther's old adversary, brought out the open letter in pamphlet form. Catharinus published his criticisms of Cajetan's commentaries in 1535, revised and expanded them in 1542, and obtained a censure by the Paris faculty against Cajetan's biblical works in August, 1544.

The specific charges brought against Cajetan concerned the reservations and plain doubts he had expressed about the apostolic origin of the final eleven verses of Mark's gospel, the story of the adultress in John 8, and five whole epistles of the New Testament (Hebrews, James, Jude, and 1 and 2 John). These views were especially serious in Cajetan's case, since he had laid down the rule that apostolic authorship or direct approval by an apostle was normative for inclusion in the New Testament canon. Following Jerome, Cajetan also relegated the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament to a secondary place where they could serve piety but not the teaching of revealed doctrine.


Jared Wicks tr., Cajetan Responds: A Reader in Reformation Controversy (Washington: The Catholic University Press of America, 1978).

Cajetan Responds


Jared Wicks is a Jesuit priest whose special field of interest is Martin Luther and the Reformation. He is a professor of historical theology at the Jesuit School of Theology in Chicago.


Same theologian who was a top scholar at Trent. Seems Luther was not the only Catholic with questions about NT books. I of course disagree with both men. Just wanted to point out Luther was not the only one questioning the NT canon.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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I didn't say we needed them to pray for us, but since you brought this up, why do any of us ask others to pray for us? If you are going to reject asking their prayers then why aren't you consistent in not asking anyone's prayers?

I would not object if anyone offered to pray for me. The scripture says that if two agree on anything according to God's will, He will do it for us. But, I don't need anyone to pray for me because I can go boldly to God's throne of grace myself and receive help in my time of need.

Of course, it all depends on why a person would offer to pray for me. If I discern that it comes from a critical spirit and the motivation to pray for me is to change me according to what they want for me, then I can allow them to pray for me, but I will go to God afterward and give Him my opinion about the motivation for that prayer.
 
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MarysSon

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Which one of those councils or synods were ecumenical?
Trent.
Trent closed the Canon.

However, just because the previous Synods weren't infallible - doesn't mean they weren't Authoritative. Not every Authoritative statement over the years had been made under the charism of infallibility. there are disciplines that are Authoritative and aren't even matters of doctrine - like not eating meat on Fridays during Lent.

Priestly celibacy is another one. It's not a doctrinal matter - but a matter of discipline. Nonetheless, it's Authoritative.
 
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