Jack Chick's View on Catholicism

[redleghunter]

I didn't say we needed them to pray for us, but since you brought this up, why do any of us ask others to pray for us? If you are going to reject asking their prayers then why aren't you consistent in not asking anyone's prayers?

There's a lot we don't know.

We do know the Resurrection for us is yet future as all credal faiths acknowledge.

That means prayers to departed saints means souls of saints.

Yes they live as Paul said absent from the body is present with the Lord.

Yet we still do not have any such prayers to departed brethren anywhere recorded in apostolic works.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

There's a lot we don't know.

We do know the Resurrection for us is yet future as all credal faiths acknowledge.

That means prayers to departed saints means souls of saints.

Yes they live as Paul said absent from the body is present with the Lord.

Yet we still do not have any such prayers to departed brethren anywhere recorded in apostolic works.

Probably no Scriptural ref that most Protestants would accept.

The classic OT Catholic go to verse:

2 Mac 12:39-46
Next day, with Judas at their head, they went back to recover the bodies of the slain, for burial among their own folk in their fathers’ graves; 40 and what found they? Each of the fallen was wearing, under his shirt, some token carried away from the false gods of Jamnia. Here was defiance of the Jewish law, and none doubted it was the cause of their undoing; 41 none but praised the Lord for his just retribution, that had brought hidden things to light; 42 and so they fell to prayer, pleading that the sin might go unremembered.43 Then he would have contribution made; a sum of twelve thousand silver pieces he levied, and sent it to Jerusalem, to have sacrifice made there for the guilt of their dead companions. Was not this well done and piously? Here was a man kept the resurrection ever in mind; 44 he had done fondly and foolishly indeed, to pray for the dead, if these might rise no more, that once were fallen! 45 And these had made a godly end; could he doubt, a rich recompense awaited them? 46 A holy and wholesome thought it is to pray for the dead, for their guilt’s undoing.​

Generally accepted by many older Churches as condolencse to a family, praise for the works of the departed and ending in a prayer for recently departed brother, a prayer for him to find mercy with the Lord ("when that day comes" meaning on Judgment day).

2 Tim 1:16-18
16 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus;[3] often enough he revived my spirits. Instead of being ashamed of a prisoner’s acquaintance, 17 he sought me out when he was in Rome, and succeeded in finding me. 18 The Lord grant that he may find mercy with his Lord when that day comes; what he did for me in Ephesus I have no need to tell thee.​

The rest from Scripture are less direct and most Protestors may scoff. Jesus making ref to forgiveness of sins mentions both "in this world" and the "in world to come". A prayer that the deceased find mercy is in essence and of necessity that they have forgiveness of sins. The fact Saint Paul could be seen as admonishing the manner but not the "thought"(like the OT passage above) of doing something (like pray) for the dead when the Saint spoke about "Baptism for the dead", this is at least evidence that people believed it possible to be able to do things that would benefit the dead.

The support from tradition is much stronger, beginning with the most ancient of Liturgies all having a prayer for the departed included one of few things that seems universal to all ancient Liturgies of the Mass - also something still found at every Mass conducted today. Some of those ancient versions included specific pleas, like Saint Paul's, for the remission of sins. Which further supports a very early and universal establishment of a practice in the whole Church everywhere without objection (doesn't happen a lot), which would also be odd absent appeal to Apostolic teaching on it, and that lends further credence to the traditional understanding of NT references mentioned.

 

[chevyontheriver]

With every ministry (and no ministry is perfect), we need to pick the meat from the bones.

Just be sure not to get sick picking the little bit of meat from that carrion.

 

[Zayin7]

I've never really understood why so many think that Roman Catholic Christians somehow don't acknowledge Jesus.

The Cathechism of the (Roman) Catholic Church says clearly in paragraph 430

"Jesus means in Hebrew: 'God saves.' At the annunciation, the angel Gabriel gave him the name Jesus as his proper name, which expresses both his identity and his mission. Since God alone can forgive sins, it is God who, in Jesus his eternal Son made man, "will save his people from their sins". In Jesus, God recapitulates all of his history of salvation on behalf of men."

But anyway, about the claims that Jack Chick (who is deceased, yes) expresses about Roman Catholicism...

One, these cartoon tracts are effective in getting and keeping people's attention. In my opinion, they are well-designed (although the drawings are often very poor or only mechanically competent).

Two, even when we take into consideration that everything in these tracts is cartoonishly exaggerated, the paranoid worldview they contain is bizarre. It is either dishonest or evidence of an inability to understand the world in a non-childish way.

"Dignity and Duties" is (sort of) cited in several places in the tract called "Papa." But "Dignity and Duties" is not an authoritative statement of any of the teachings of the RCC.

But that's not the worst of it. The tract depicts a child being confirmed in the RCC. The text reads "Anthony is 'sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit' - or is it some other visitor?" The obvious suggestion is that it isn't the Holy Spirit but a demon or something. First, there is no reason to think that (if there is such a reason, why isn't it explained in the tract?). Second, the bit about the Holy Spirit is in quotes, but not cited. Even if we let that slide since the CCC does say "by the sacrament of Confirmation, [the baptized]...are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit", we still can note that the words (sort of) of a church publication are quoted...and then replaced by a "suggestion". In other words, the church is responsible for whatever the Chick tract says. Yet in the very same panel, the text below the picture reads "Confirmation is said to 'bind a child into the Church.' In their own words, he is in bondage!"

So in some instances, the tract gets to replace the words of a church publication with others, and the Church is responsible. But in some instances, the words of the publication are to be willfully misinterpreted -- and again the Church is responsible. But since we've established that you get to replace whatever words you want, why not suggest that 'binding' really means 'loosing'? Or whatever?

No. Paranoid worldview aside, the tracts are intellectually dishonest. If there are problems with the RCC or any Christian body, meet them fairly and head-on.

Oh .many acknowledge Jesus.
Even devils.

 

[Thursday]

His work was good while he stuck with the gospel and to get sinners converted to Christ. When he started to snipe at the Catholic Church then that is where he went wrong. I read and used his early tracts and found them very effective for sharing the gospel. I also found his larger tract dealing with revival as Charles Finney taught it very effective in pointing out the particular issues that prevented revival and how we can promote it. I haven't read his anti-Catholic tracts. He may have made the same mistake as William Branham. While Branham kept within his calling as a healing evangelist, he was really effective in bringing souls to Christ. But when he decided to become a Bible teacher, something that God did not call him to, he went into error and died a premature death. It is important to remain within the prophetic calling that God has called us to and not try and extend it to stuff that He has not authorised for us. It can not only damage us, but can cause damage to the wider body of Christ.

And Stalin got the trains to run on time.

 

[Pilgrim Heir]

What do you think of his views he had on the Roman Catholic Church? Not only what you think, but WHY?

I will say that I believe Constantine brought much into the church that shouldn't have been in there, but I think Roman Catholics can still be saved as long as they accept Jesus as the Savior of their sin.

For those of you who don't know who Jack Chick was and his views, here's some links:

Are Roman Catholics Christians?
Last Rites
Papa
Why Is Mary Crying?

Catholics and Protestants have different doctrines of salvation. This is why Chick and others have condemned Rome. The papal system of salvation is sacramental. The priests hold in their hands the key to salvation and without receiving the sacraments of the Catholic Church, you are condemned. This is their doctrine. The Church has also anathematized all who hold to salvation by faith alone.

 

[J-Man70]

Pope Benedict XVI 'kind of' agrees too.

Pope Benedict XVI: 'Luther Was Right'

That's a great article! Thanks!!!

 

[J-Man70]

So you agree that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob can pray for us?

They're NOT omnipresent. They can't hear our prayers. Only God can.

 

[Albion]

I didn't say we needed them to pray for us, but since you brought this up, why do any of us ask others to pray for us? If you are going to reject asking their prayers then why aren't you consistent in not asking anyone's prayers?

That's a reasonable question and POV. But you know that the churches which promote the practice of praying to those who have gone on to the afterlife teach that they have more influence with God than mortals do. That's largely what recommends the practice.

 

[redleghunter]

Probably no Scriptural ref that most Protestants would accept.

The classic OT Catholic go to verse:

2 Mac 12:39-46
Next day, with Judas at their head, they went back to recover the bodies of the slain, for burial among their own folk in their fathers’ graves; 40 and what found they? Each of the fallen was wearing, under his shirt, some token carried away from the false gods of Jamnia. Here was defiance of the Jewish law, and none doubted it was the cause of their undoing; 41 none but praised the Lord for his just retribution, that had brought hidden things to light; 42 and so they fell to prayer, pleading that the sin might go unremembered.43 Then he would have contribution made; a sum of twelve thousand silver pieces he levied, and sent it to Jerusalem, to have sacrifice made there for the guilt of their dead companions. Was not this well done and piously? Here was a man kept the resurrection ever in mind; 44 he had done fondly and foolishly indeed, to pray for the dead, if these might rise no more, that once were fallen! 45 And these had made a godly end; could he doubt, a rich recompense awaited them? 46 A holy and wholesome thought it is to pray for the dead, for their guilt’s undoing.​

Generally accepted by many older Churches as condolencse to a family, praise for the works of the departed and ending in a prayer for recently departed brother, a prayer for him to find mercy with the Lord ("when that day comes" meaning on Judgment day).

2 Tim 1:16-18
16 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus;[3] often enough he revived my spirits. Instead of being ashamed of a prisoner’s acquaintance, 17 he sought me out when he was in Rome, and succeeded in finding me. 18 The Lord grant that he may find mercy with his Lord when that day comes; what he did for me in Ephesus I have no need to tell thee.​

The rest from Scripture are less direct and most Protestors may scoff. Jesus making ref to forgiveness of sins mentions both "in this world" and the "in world to come". A prayer that the deceased find mercy is in essence and of necessity that they have forgiveness of sins. The fact Saint Paul could be seen as admonishing the manner but not the "thought"(like the OT passage above) of doing something (like pray) for the dead when the Saint spoke about "Baptism for the dead", this is at least evidence that people believed it possible to be able to do things that would benefit the dead.

The support from tradition is much stronger, beginning with the most ancient of Liturgies all having a prayer for the departed included one of few things that seems universal to all ancient Liturgies of the Mass - also something still found at every Mass conducted today. Some of those ancient versions included specific pleas, like Saint Paul's, for the remission of sins. Which further supports a very early and universal establishment of a practice in the whole Church everywhere without objection (doesn't happen a lot), which would also be odd absent appeal to Apostolic teaching on it, and that lends further credence to the traditional understanding of NT references mentioned.

I was addressing prayers to departed brethren (Saints) and not prayers for departed brethren.

 

[Anto9us]

Yeah...

The BIG SPLINTER was into 2

RCC splintering away from Orthodox...

claiming Roman Bishop was superior to other bishops, when it had been a college of bishops for a thousand years, not a single man as "Vicar of Christ"

As I see it, Protestants did not "split off from the one true church"...

As far as the OP -- Jack Chick's tracts against Catholics I find highly offensive

In the Air Force, things were simpler -- one building -- THE CHAPEL
early mass for Catholics, then a Protestant service, after which me and the more ecumenical Protestants went around collecting horrible Chick tracts against Catholics from the pews before the later RCC service

We turned them into Father Cordoza, the Catholic Chaplain -- once he showed me a WHOLE DRAWERFUL of them in his office -- he was not smiling.

As time went on, I learned the HISTORY of the early church -- and was made aware of Orthodox with a capital O -- and also the history of the church BEFORE the Nicene Creed...

There was NOT "Unity" in the early church of the first three/four centuries -- Arianism nearly won the day -- our Trinitarian view and 2 natures of Christ was "up for grabs" for a long time, there were Gnostics, Docetists, Modalists, etc

I personally ain't taking the rap, as a Protestant, for "being away from the ONE TRUE CHURCH" or any of that nonsense

Any UNITY among Christians is in an ATTITUDE, not a HEIRARCHY.

"In essentials -- unity,
in non-essentials -- tolerance,
and in all things -- charity"

I think that was Rupert Meldinius rather than Augustine...

My son joined Greek Orthodox Church; the more I study it, the more I think any Catholic doing finger-pointing about Protestants "splintering off" -- well, ya know, other three fingers pointing back at yerself

Among Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox and Coptic is an invisible TRUE CHURCH, imo.
Gates of hell won't prevail against it -- but this "we are the one true church" idea -- from ANY denomination; makes the whole of Christianity less than what it would be otherwise

 

[Anto9us]

Schism of 1054 | Christianity

Rupertus Meldenius - Wikipedia

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

I was trying to facilitate a healthy discussion. Not get involved in it.

Consider me unconvinced on the history of Constantine and his relations with the church.

I have an open mind. Your chance to convince me.

I'm not interested tbh cause personally my comment was a joke comment on the thread wasn't interested in discussing something I'm set on. I have a set view of the overall Catholic Church. God bless though

 

[Philip_B]

Yes, us who are still alive pray for each other. Dead Christians are not omnipresent. They can't hear you.

What is a dead Christian? We are the inheritors of eternal life.

 

[Anto9us]

As to this side issue of praying for the dead, Episcopalians are Protestants, and in the catechism of Book of Common Prayer -- it addresses praying for the dead.

There are "dead Christians" in the sense of they are no longer walking this earth

"the dead in Christ shall rise first"

"WHY ARE THEY THEN BAPTIZED FOR THE DEAD, if the dead rise not?"

 

[Albion]

As to this side issue of praying for the dead, Episcopalians are Protestants, and in the catechism of Book of Common Prayer -- it addresses praying for the dead.

As another poster noted in #141, this is about praying to the dead, not praying for the dead.

There are "dead Christians" in the sense of they are no longer walking this earth

Right. No one's challenging the idea that there's an afterlife.

 

[Anto9us]

Ahh... OK, I see -- the difference between praying FOR and praying TO -- you and redleg be right, Albion.

Martin Luther once prayed TO his patron saint when he got struck by lightning, promised to become a monk if he lived through the storm...

But I doubt that later on he would have prayed TO a dead Chistian

 

[Albion]

Ahh... OK, I see -- the difference between praying FOR and praying TO -- you and redleg be right, Albion.

Martin Luther once prayed TO his patron saint when he got struck by lightning, promised to become a monk if he lived through the storm...

But I doubt that later on he would have prayed TO a dead Chistian

That's right. He prayed in that fashion, like every other Medieval Catholic of his time did. He later became famous for asserting that it's Scripture which is the ultimate guide to Christian doctrine, not Tradition.

 

[redleghunter]

<staff edit>

Can you receive the Eucharist in an Eastern Orthodox Church?

 

[redleghunter]

What is a dead Christian? We are the inheritors of eternal life.

I took that as our flesh is dead. Paul made it simple in my opinion. Absent from the body, present with the Lord. Jesus made such a promise in John 14. I would say the orthodox view is our souls go to the presence of Jesus Christ, and the Martyrs "slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held" (Revelation 6) have the honor of residing under the Holy Altar in Heaven.

We await then the Second Coming of Jesus Christ where He will reward the faithful with their glorified bodies.