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Jack Chick's View on Catholicism

Anto9us

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By Acts ch 15 -- it is clear that Peter was NOT "in charge" of the Jerusalem church -- it was James -- the ADELPHOS of the Lord; most consider James a half-brother of Jesus by an earlier marriage of Joseph, adelphos means brother or close relative

Peter was skeert of "those from James" and withdrew from eating with Gentiles when THE JAMES GANG showed up, Paul withstood him to his face about it, remember?

If there was a "chair of Peter", then James was sittin' in it by the time we get to the first council on what to do about the Gentiles.
 
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Anto9us

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I find even Jack Chick's stuff that has nothing to do with Catholics EXTREMELY DISTASTEFUL,
and carelessly bogus in one where he tried to "prove" young earthism by saying human footprints were found alongside dinosaur prints at the Paluxy River in Glen Rose Texas

That was debunked -- prints of smaller dinosaurs, not humans -- but haughty Jack Chick had gone into print that the human footprints were in same strata of rock as dinosaur prints

THE BIG LIE
 
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redleghunter

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Tertullian
I hear that there has even been an edict set forth, and a peremptory one too. The Pontifex Maximus -that is, the BISHOP of BISHOPS -issues an edict: "I remit, to such as have discharged (the requirements of) repentance, the sins both of adultery and of fornication." (Di Pudicitia).

You do realize Tertullian was being facetious?

Plus, wasn't Tertullian a heretic?
 
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Monk Brendan

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If there was a "chair of Peter", then James was sittin' in it by the time we get to the first council on what to do about the Gentiles.

The first "Chair of Peter" was in Antioch, which is where Peter first started as bishop
 
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MarysSon

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You do realize Tertullian was being facetious?

Plus, wasn't Tertullian a heretic?
Yes, Tertullian WAS being facetious.
HOWEVER, just because he had disdain for Pope Callixtus doesn't mean that he didn't recognize his office.

Tertullian wasn't always a heretic. Many of his writings are valuable and that is why he is considered an Early Church Father.
He fell prey to the Montanist heresy later on in life.
 
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MarysSon

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By Acts ch 15 -- it is clear that Peter was NOT "in charge" of the Jerusalem church -- it was James -- the ADELPHOS of the Lord; most consider James a half-brother of Jesus by an earlier marriage of Joseph, adelphos means brother or close relative

Peter was skeert of "those from James" and withdrew from eating with Gentiles when THE JAMES GANG showed up, Paul withstood him to his face about it, remember?

If there was a "chair of Peter", then James was sittin' in it by the time we get to the first council on what to do about the Gentiles.

The fact that Paul rebuked Peter for his behavior doesn't nullify Peter's God-given authority.

The fact that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem doesn't either. At the Council of Jerusalem, it was Peter who stood up first and made a judgment. James merely followed his lead.
 
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Anto9us

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Plus, wasn't Tertullian a heretic?

Tertullian WENT MONTANIST on us at the end -- he wrote good stuff before -- I dunno if he is "classed" a hairy-tick or not
 
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Monk Brendan

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claiming Roman Bishop was superior to other bishops, when it had been a college of bishops for a thousand years, not a single man as "Vicar of Christ"

Wrong! The big split was more about the personality clash between Patriarch Michael of Constantinople and Cardinal Humbert from Silva Candida. Both of them had larger than life opinions of themselves. It turned into a "measuring" contest, and then Cardinal Humbert laid an illegal Bull of Excommunication on the high altar of Hagia Sophia (Holy Wisdom) Cathedral during Divine Liturgy. I say illegal because his legacy was void, as the pope who sent him had died before the Bull was written.
 
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redleghunter

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So, no it is not just a matter of rejecting the books that most of the early Christians relied and quoted from. We even have NT references to some of those same books indicating at least a validation that that particular version of the Jewish OT was not just the source, but was the version in use by them when they wrote the NT. Again, not saying any Protestant must accept this teaching and these statement are "proof" they should, just saying it is a much bigger matter than just simply rejecting a few OT books 1500 years or so later.

Greetings and Salutations Brother in Christ!

There is a long history of debate leading into Trent of the protocanonical books of the OT and the deuterocanonical books.

The Roman Catholic historian (and expert on Trent) Hubert Jedin, waded into the dispute leading up to and during Trent. He noted one respected theologian stanchly loyal to the Pope, Cardinal Seripando. Jedin explained “he was aligned with the leaders of a minority that was outstanding for its theological scholarship” at the Council of Trent.

Jedin elaborates:

“[Seripando was] Impressed by the doubts of St. Jerome, Rufinus, and St. John Damascene about the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament, Seripando favored a distinction in the degrees of authority of the books of the Florentine canon. The highest authority among all the books of the Old Testament must be accorded those which Christ Himself and the apostles quoted in the New Testament, especially the Psalms. But the rule of citation in the New Testament does not indicate the difference of degree in the strict sense of the word, because certain Old Testament books not quoted in the New Testament are equal in authority to those quoted. St. Jerome gives an actual difference in degree of authority when he gives a higher place to those books which are adequate to prove a dogma than to those which are read merely for edification. The former, the protocanonical books, are “libri canonici et authentici“; Tobias, Judith, the Book of Wisdom, the books of Esdras, Ecclesiasticus, the books of the Maccabees, and Baruch are only “canonici et ecclesiastici” and make up the canon morum in contrast to the canon fidei. These, Seripando says in the words of St. Jerome, are suited for the edification of the people, but they are not authentic, that is, not sufficient to prove a dogma. Seripando emphasized that in spite of the Florentine canon the question of a twofold canon was still open and was treated as such by learned men in the Church. Without doubt he was thinking of Cardinal Cajetan, who in his commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews accepted St. Jerome’s view which had had supporters throughout the Middle Ages.”
Source: Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), pp. 270-271.

Jedin continues:

“For the last time [Seripando] expressed his doubts [to the Council of Trent] about accepting the deuterocanonical books into the canon of faith. Together with the apostolic traditions the so-called apostolic canons were being accepted, and the eighty-fifth canon listed the Book of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) as non-canonical. Now, he said, it would be contradictory to accept, on the one hand, the apostolic traditions as the foundation of faith and, on the other, to directly reject one of them.”
Source: Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), p. 278.

Catholic historian Hubert Jedin also adds later:

“In his opposition to accepting the Florentine canon and the equalization of traditions with Holy Scripture, Seripando did not stand alone. In the particular congregation of March 23, the learned Dominican Bishop Bertano of Fano had already expressed the view that Holy Scripture possessed greater authority than the traditions because the Scriptures were unchangeable; that only offenders against the biblical canon should come under the anathema, not those who deny the principle of tradition; that it would be unfortunate if the Council limited itself to the apostolic canons, because the Protestants would say that the abrogation of some of these traditions was arbitrary and represented an abuse… Another determined opponent of putting traditions on a par with Holy Scripture, as well as the anathema, was the Dominican Nacchianti. The Servite general defended the view that all the evangelical truths were contained in the Bible, and he subscribed to the canon of St. Jerome, as did also Madruzzo and Fonseca on April 1. While Seripando abandoned his view as a lost cause, Madruzzo, the Carmelite general, and the Bishop of Agde stood for the limited canon, and the bishops of Castellamare and Caorle urged the related motion to place the books of Judith, Baruch, and Machabees in the “canon ecclesiae.” From all this it is evident that Seripando was by no means alone in his views. In his battle for the canon of St. Jerome and against the anathema and the parity of traditions with Holy Scripture, he was aligned with the leaders of a minority that was outstanding for its theological scholarship.”
Source: Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), pp. 281-282.



Of course the slam dunk answer is "what difference does it make" because Trent settled this. Which is correct from a 16th Century Catholic Trent position.

I wanted to point out that leading into Trent within the Church herself, there was a long tradition dating back to the Athanasius canon of the deuterocanonical OT books being for edification and not equal to in authority of the protocanonical OT books for doctrinal authority.

With names such as Athanasius, St. Jerome, Rufinus, and St. John Damascene (couple of those names are Doctors of the Church), the protocanonical vs. deuterocanonical was a Catholic tradition. Until Trent.

The notions that Luther, other Reformers or Protestants in general ‘made this stuff’ up and that it was a 16th Century AD machination no longer holds water. The evidence shows there was even dissent within the walls of the Council of Trent.

Finally, given there was such debate within the walls of the Council of Trent, also shows evidence the OT canon was not settled in the 4th Century AD.


Source material can be found at this Google Books site:

Papal Legate at the Council of Trent

Hubert Jedin was a Catholic Church historian from Germany, whose publications specialized on the history of ecumenical councils in general and the Council of Trent in particular, on which he published a 2400-page history over the years 1951-1975.
 
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Sammy-San

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I am a student of history--especially Church history, and while I admit that SOME of the excesses of the bishops and abbots, priests and so on were wrong, the TRUTH of the Catholic faith is NOT wrong, and did NOT need reforming.

What about unbibical supernatural phenomena, like angels translating languages?
 
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redleghunter

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Another comedic example from Divine Comedy store. As is the ability of some camels to extrude part of their digestive track and let it hang in a rather disgusting looking bag from their mouth. Rather showing we are what we eat perhaps or the idea some are led by their stomachs - maybe am struggling at comedic expression here I guess.
God platypus.jpg
God_makes_the_snake1.jpg
 
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MarysSon

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Greetings and Salutations Brother in Christ!

There is a long history of debate leading into Trent of the protocanonical books of the OT and the deuterocanonical books.

The Roman Catholic historian (and expert on Trent) Hubert Jedin, waded into the dispute leading up to and during Trent. He noted one respected theologian stanchly loyal to the Pope, Cardinal Seripando. Jedin explained “he was aligned with the leaders of a minority that was outstanding for its theological scholarship” at the Council of Trent.

Jedin elaborates:

“[Seripando was] Impressed by the doubts of St. Jerome, Rufinus, and St. John Damascene about the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament, Seripando favored a distinction in the degrees of authority of the books of the Florentine canon. The highest authority among all the books of the Old Testament must be accorded those which Christ Himself and the apostles quoted in the New Testament, especially the Psalms. But the rule of citation in the New Testament does not indicate the difference of degree in the strict sense of the word, because certain Old Testament books not quoted in the New Testament are equal in authority to those quoted. St. Jerome gives an actual difference in degree of authority when he gives a higher place to those books which are adequate to prove a dogma than to those which are read merely for edification. The former, the protocanonical books, are “libri canonici et authentici“; Tobias, Judith, the Book of Wisdom, the books of Esdras, Ecclesiasticus, the books of the Maccabees, and Baruch are only “canonici et ecclesiastici” and make up the canon morum in contrast to the canon fidei. These, Seripando says in the words of St. Jerome, are suited for the edification of the people, but they are not authentic, that is, not sufficient to prove a dogma. Seripando emphasized that in spite of the Florentine canon the question of a twofold canon was still open and was treated as such by learned men in the Church. Without doubt he was thinking of Cardinal Cajetan, who in his commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews accepted St. Jerome’s view which had had supporters throughout the Middle Ages.”
Source: Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), pp. 270-271.

Jedin continues:

“For the last time [Seripando] expressed his doubts [to the Council of Trent] about accepting the deuterocanonical books into the canon of faith. Together with the apostolic traditions the so-called apostolic canons were being accepted, and the eighty-fifth canon listed the Book of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) as non-canonical. Now, he said, it would be contradictory to accept, on the one hand, the apostolic traditions as the foundation of faith and, on the other, to directly reject one of them.”
Source: Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), p. 278.

Catholic historian Hubert Jedin also adds later:

“In his opposition to accepting the Florentine canon and the equalization of traditions with Holy Scripture, Seripando did not stand alone. In the particular congregation of March 23, the learned Dominican Bishop Bertano of Fano had already expressed the view that Holy Scripture possessed greater authority than the traditions because the Scriptures were unchangeable; that only offenders against the biblical canon should come under the anathema, not those who deny the principle of tradition; that it would be unfortunate if the Council limited itself to the apostolic canons, because the Protestants would say that the abrogation of some of these traditions was arbitrary and represented an abuse… Another determined opponent of putting traditions on a par with Holy Scripture, as well as the anathema, was the Dominican Nacchianti. The Servite general defended the view that all the evangelical truths were contained in the Bible, and he subscribed to the canon of St. Jerome, as did also Madruzzo and Fonseca on April 1. While Seripando abandoned his view as a lost cause, Madruzzo, the Carmelite general, and the Bishop of Agde stood for the limited canon, and the bishops of Castellamare and Caorle urged the related motion to place the books of Judith, Baruch, and Machabees in the “canon ecclesiae.” From all this it is evident that Seripando was by no means alone in his views. In his battle for the canon of St. Jerome and against the anathema and the parity of traditions with Holy Scripture, he was aligned with the leaders of a minority that was outstanding for its theological scholarship.”
Source: Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), pp. 281-282.


Of course the slam dunk answer is "what difference does it make" because Trent settled this. Which is correct from a 16th Century Catholic Trent position.

I wanted to point out that leading into Trent within the Church herself, there was a long tradition dating back to the Athanasius canon of the deuterocanonical OT books being for edification and not equal to in authority of the protocanonical OT books for doctrinal authority.

With names such as Athanasius, St. Jerome, Rufinus, and St. John Damascene (couple of those names are Doctors of the Church), the protocanonical vs. deuterocanonical was a Catholic tradition. Until Trent.

The notions that Luther, other Reformers or Protestants in general ‘made this stuff’ up and that it was a 16th Century AD machination no longer holds water (not saying that is your particular argument). The evidence shows there was even dissent within the walls of the Council of Trent.

Finally, given there was such debate within the walls of the Council of Trent, also shows evidence the OT canon was not settled in the 4th Century AD.

Source material can be found at this Google Books site:

Papal Legate at the Council of Trent

Hubert Jedin was a Catholic Church historian from Germany, whose publications specialized on the history of ecumenical councils in general and the Council of Trent in particular, on which he published a 2400-page history over the years 1951-1975.

A couple of things - including a correction.

While Jerome did have his misgivings about the canonicity of the Deuterocanonical Books - he later explained that it was only due to the objections from the Jews he had received assistance from while translating the OT into Latin. In fact, he used excepts from these books in his debates, referring to them as "Sacred Scripture."

As for Trent - this Council merely closed the previously open Canon of Scripture that had already been declared and reiterated more than 5 times in the previous 1200 years.

During a period of 37 years at the end of the 4th and the turn of the 5th century, the Canon of Scripture was formally declared and confirmed FIVE times. It is the same canon of Scripture that was around during the Protestant Revolt and that is still in use today by the Catholic Church. It was during the so-called Reformation and subsequent periods that rebellious, prideful men had problems with the canon and decided that some of the books were uninspired. Luther wanted to remove several books including Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation. Calvin and Zwingli did not believe Revelation to be inspired and wanted to remove it as well.

- The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified.
- It was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo eleven years later (393).
- At the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.
- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.
- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes, Tertullian WAS being facetious.
HOWEVER, just because he had disdain for Pope Callixtus doesn't mean that he didn't recognize his office.

Tertullian wasn't always a heretic. Many of his writings are valuable and that is why he is considered an Early Church Father.
He fell prey to the Montanist heresy later on in life.

When Tertullian used "Pontifex Maximus" to describe the Pope, there was already a Roman official with that title. That was the joke.
 
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Philip_B

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The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.
The use of value laden terms in this paragraph fails to adequately address the core issues involved, and detracts from the credibility of the post.

Thankfully the KJV in 1611 contained the deutero-canonical texts.
 
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Philip_B

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When Tertullian used "Pontifex Maximus" to describe the Pope, there was already a Roman official with that title. That was the joke.
It is worth noting that one of the titles that Constantine acquired in 308 was Pontifax Maximus (Great Bridge Builder) and referred to his rank within the pagan religion of Rome.
 
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redleghunter

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A couple of things - including a correction.

While Jerome did have his misgivings about the canonicity of the Deuterocanonical Books - he later explained that it was only due to the objections from the Jews he had received assistance from while translating the OT into Latin. In fact, he used excepts from these books in his debates, referring to them as "Sacred Scripture."

As for Trent - this Council merely closed the previously open Canon of Scripture that had already been declared and reiterated more than 5 times in the previous 1200 years.

During a period of 37 years at the end of the 4th and the turn of the 5th century, the Canon of Scripture was formally declared and confirmed FIVE times. It is the same canon of Scripture that was around during the Protestant Revolt and that is still in use today by the Catholic Church. It was during the so-called Reformation and subsequent periods that rebellious, prideful men had problems with the canon and decided that some of the books were uninspired. Luther wanted to remove several books including Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation. Calvin and Zwingli did not believe Revelation to be inspired and wanted to remove it as well.

- The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified.
- It was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo eleven years later (393).
- At the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.
- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.
- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

So you agree with noted Catholic historian Jedin that even leading into Trent there was a Catholic tradition of the proto and deutero canons?

That this debate was not some machination of Luther, other reformers and Protestants in general?

That noted Athanasius, a Doctor of both the East and West Catholic Church has some misgivings for the deutero books?

I forgot to add to my post to my buddy @DrBubbaLove the following from another noted Trent era scholar, Cardinal Cajetan.


In 1532, Cajetan wrote his Commentary on All the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament (dedicated to Pope Clement VII ). In this work, Cajetan leaves out the entirety of the Apocrypha since he did not consider it to be Canonical:

“Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the Bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the Bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage.”

Cajetan Responds
 
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MarysSon

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When Tertullian used "Pontifex Maximus" to describe the Pope, there was already a Roman official with that title. That was the joke.
The term Pontifex was already being used for the Bishop of Rome.
It simply means "greatest bridge builder".
 
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