Where did the Church first go wrong?

[Dave-W]

Judaism no longer has anything to do with Christianity.

See? That is the derailment right there.

 

[Dave-W]

In other words, the early Christians were clearly Catholic and believed what the Catholic Church still teaches.

Doesn't it bother you that your faith is so different from the early Christians?

Actually - the early Christians were ALL Jews and still worshipped in the Temple and synagogues. James the Just who was the senior congregational leader in Jerusalem from Acts 15 on to his martyrdom in the mid 60s ad was ALSO Rosh Yeshiva (head of the school) to one of the schools of Pharisees in Jerusalem -probably Beit Shammai.

 

[Wolf_Says]

See? That is the derailment right there.

The Judaism of today is in no way our roots. However there are many things similar to early Judaism and the Catholic Church.

After the protestant reformation, many who split lost all connection with the Traditions of the Catholic Church and her teachings.

That does not mean that the Church that Jesus Christ started has ever gone off the rails.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Do you think the Church started by Jesus teaches multiple competing doctrines?

Jesus seems to indicate a single Church with authority:

Matt 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Now your moving the debate away from what Jesus meant about Peter being like a stone to Church doctrines.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

We do have profound roots in the religion of Israel. Spiritually we are Semites. At least that's what pope Pius XI said. So many distinctively Catholic practices that were lost after the Reformation are actually Israelite practices, like confession, straight out of Leviticus 19. We are more akin to the Israelite religion in that regard than we are akin to many modern Protestants.

This is true. It's like the difference between the Essenes and the Pharisees.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Witnessing is witnessing. We all should be witnesses. That doesn't give us the authority to bind and loose or to forgive sins. Only the apostles were given this authority.

No, I said if you have the Holy Spirit, even without it could be possible, for anything is possible with God.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

No, not anybody in Christ. Please show me where it says that anybody in Christ has the keys to the kingdom of Heave?

From what I can find, there is only 1 person, and that person is Peter. Those keys have since been given down to every successor of Peter, aka the Pope.

No-one else has the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

The Key is the knowledge of Christ's saving grace. You can give that to anyone.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Now your moving the debate away from what Jesus meant about Peter being like a stone to Church doctrines.

Then allow me to bring it back. Jesus was referring to Peter when He said "and on this rock I will build my Church."

This is agreed upon by ECF, and many biblical scholars today, even if they are in different denominations. I provided the link as proof.

Your issue seems to be that you think that because we say that Peter is the rock that Jesus is referring too, somehow this takes away from Jesus as our Lord. This is where you are wrong, because this does not take away from Jesus at all, as it was one of His teachings.

 

[Wolf_Says]

The Key is the knowledge of Christ's saving grace. You can give that to anyone.

Incorrect, that is not what the keys to the kingdom of God are. They are similar to keys of a steward given to him from the master of the house.

These are not given to anyone, just the steward.

These keys give Peter the power to determine internal affairs, and describe doctrine, in his masters house, who is Jesus.

None of us have this power, none of us can determine doctrine, nor bind or loose, nor forgive sins. That power was given to Peter (the keys) and the Apostles (bind and loose, forgive sins) and has been handed down from bishop to bishop for over 2000 years.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

We do have profound roots in the religion of Israel. Spiritually we are Semites. At least that's what pope Pius XI said. So many distinctively Catholic practices that were lost after the Reformation are actually Israelite practices, like confession, straight out of Leviticus 19. We are more akin to the Israelite religion in that regard than we are akin to many modern Protestants.

I somewhat agree but protestants are now leaning further into Judaism than anyone could have thought possible, which started at least 200 years ago now.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

You failed to prove ANYTHING.

All you did was push your misconception in regards to that verse, and have given me NOTHING to back it up.

I have provided you verses, and quotes from biblical scholars from different denominations, not just Catholic, who all agree that Peter is who Jesus is referencing in Matthew 16:18.

I will say this again, just as Peter said "You are the messiah", Jesus said "You are Peter (Kehpas) and on this Kephas I will build my Church."

Plain and simple.

And i'll say again the Jesus is the cornerstone. Noe who builds a house starts with the stones. They lay the cornerstone first.

 

[Wolf_Says]

And i'll say again the Jesus is the cornerstone. Noe who builds a house starts with the stones. They lay the cornerstone first.

Hense why it was Jesus who decided who to place as the earthly head of His Church.

I never said that Jesus wasn't the cornerstone....I don't see why you keep on believing that I did.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

FFOZ TV Review: Binding and Loosing

We've discussed our positions on that and the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to you.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I somewhat agree but protestants are now leaning further into Judaism than anyone could have thought possible, which started at least 200 years ago now.

Long way to go. Those Protestants who cling most tightly to hatred of the Catholic Church will have a tough time regaining elements of the religion of Israel as actually practiced at the time of Christ and written about in the OT. But it is good to see steps in that direction. There need to be many more steps. There need to be steps to end the schism of the Reformation as well. Long overdue. Five hundred years is way way too long. Those years have damaged us all.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

They all have to have a rationale for their own existence, their denominational existence. The Church just had to have gone bad so that it would be right to splinter off and start a permanent replacement organization. (This applies to all the splinters of the splinters as well.) But the Church is a holy thing made up of unholy people. We should not rationalize our exits from that Church but seek to reform ourselves and our neighbors to be worthy of being members of what Jesus founded.

If today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts.

All of this might be a good history lesson, but it's application is in how we personally contribute to the fracturing of the Church, not in justifying continuing to live among the fractures. That's easy to do. An internal reformation of one's personal attitudes is harder. Living a life that promotes healing of fractures is the hard way. (I can't do it very well at all. Often I end up promoting my fracture.) We are all living among the fractures.

Becoming the authority in one's own microfracture is, I think, a huge temptation for some of us. For many of the rest of us, we want to justify to ourselves why the authority we follow is right for us. We perpetuate schism. We should be looking at ways to heal schisms instead.

The OP seemed to be all about justifying being separate from those evil gone astray pretenders who did wrong in replacing Judas with Matthias. I think it is far more relevant to consider how we all can be more like Matthias and pick up the commission Judas failed at.

What I am saying is that the casting of lots is OT and is not for the Church. If they had of just waited on God as they were instructed by Jesus to do, then after the day of Pentecost Paul would have been added to their number. This failure to wait on God and not act in ones own power is probably the most basic and commonly made errors all Christians make. We are actually more on the same page actually: "I think it is far more relevant to consider how we all can be more like Matthias and pick up the commission Judas failed at."

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Then allow me to bring it back. Jesus was referring to Peter when He said "and on this rock I will build my Church."

This is agreed upon by ECF, and many biblical scholars today, even if they are in different denominations. I provided the link as proof.

Your issue seems to be that you think that because we say that Peter is the rock that Jesus is referring too, somehow this takes away from Jesus as our Lord. This is where you are wrong, because this does not take away from Jesus at all, as it was one of His teachings.

If only you could apply that to the scriptures as they were meant to be read: - Cornerstone = Jesus. He is the foundation on which the church is built. Not Peter.

 

[Wolf_Says]

What I am saying is that the casting of lots is OT and is not for the Church. If they had of just waited on God as they were instructed by Jesus to do, then after the day of Pentecost Paul would have been added to their number. This failure to wait on God and not act in ones own power is probably the most basic and commonly made errors all Christians make. We are actually more on the same page actually: "I think it is far more relevant to consider how we all can be more like Matthias and pick up the commission Judas failed at."

God told them to wait in Jerusalem to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, this is what they did.

It had nothing to do with them electing Matthias or waiting for Paul. Peter prayed to God prior to this, do you really think that God, who's son Jesus elected Peter as the head of the apostles, would not answer Peter and tell him to wait before casting lots if what Jesus said was truly meant for waiting on Paul?

What verse are you referring too when you say Jesus told them to wait? You have not provided that as far as I can tell.

 

[fhansen]

The casting of lots is OT and is not for the Church. If they had of waited on God as they were instructed by Jesus to do, then after the day of Pentecost Paul would have been added to their number. This failure to wait on God and not act in ones own power is probably the most basic and commonly made errors all Christians make.

This is pure speculation. How does a person know now if they're called, and not acting on their own power, out of the myriad of ministers who make that very claim and often fail miserably at living up to it. Do we just take their word for it?

Who know's (apart from God of course), do you have a specific example?

Everyone should have a pretty good idea how the bible writings were gathered, preserved, and ultimately assembled into the New Testament canon we have today-it's just history. That was done formally-by men-guided by the Holy Spirit and yet not without much prayer and debate as is generally the case, at councils between 390 and the early 400s, by the Church, IOW. Otherwise we probably wouldn't even have all the writings today, much less have them together in the universally recognized New Testament we have now. Without the church acting throughout the centuries, sometimes bumbling due to human weakness, sometimes stronger and purer in upholding and living the faith, Christianity would be a minor footnote in history, at best.

No, we must wait on God to act.

I don't disagree with this. But how do we always know with certainty when this occurs, or how it should occur in every case?

 

[Wolf_Says]

If only you could apply that to the scriptures as they were meant to be read: - Cornerstone = Jesus. He is the foundation on which the church is built. Not Peter.

I do! Where have I misquoted scripture?

Once against I never said that Jesus was not the cornerstone. I said that Peter is the rock that Jesus is referring too in Matthew 16:18. Rock, not cornerstone.

Jesus, as the Cornerstone, came and fulfilled the OT and started His Church, He then selected Peter as the rock that Jesus would build His Church on, and thus made him the head of the Apostles.

Where did I once state that Jesus was NOT the cornerstone? Please, where did I state that? Seeing how you keep insisting that I did.

 

[chevyontheriver]

What I am saying is that the casting of lots is OT and is not for the Church. If they had of just waited on God as they were instructed by Jesus to do, then after the day of Pentecost Paul would have been added to their number.

That's an interpretation not in the text of Acts 1. Acts 1 presumes that the method of replacing Judas was correct. Your mileage may vary of course. But you and Luke then have different ways of seeing it.