Unchristian teachings of the Seventh Day Adventist Church....

[now faith]

Christ, or God.

No humans; I want it straight from the "Horse''s mouth" - from the Word of God Himself.

I humbly respect the biblical heroes and prophets, but they are human. Even the disciples had infighting, and disputes on the word of God.

I can't go to God and tell Him, "But, but, but... this HUMAN told me it was OK!" He will look at me and say, "was that Human my Son?" And, when I say, "No," then He will reiterate the importance of belief and faith in the Word of God, not word of men.

Notice for it seemed good to the Holy Ghost was the preamble.

 

[now faith]

Unless you do not believe in the Holy Ghost being God.

 

[now faith]

I love my Brothers and Sisters who are 7th day,I simply disagree with some of the doctrine they follow.
Not the Sabbath but the importance of Ellen White as a prophet.
God's Word is all I consider for truth,if a teacher is teaching from the Word not embellishing it I'm fine.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Christ, or God.

No humans; I want it straight from the "Horse''s mouth" - from the Word of God Himself.

I humbly respect the biblical heroes and prophets, but they are human. Even the disciples had infighting, and disputes on the word of God.

I can't go to God and tell Him, "But, but, but... this HUMAN told me it was OK!" He will look at me and say, "was that Human my Son?" And, when I say, "No," then He will reiterate the importance of belief and faith in the Word of God, not word of men.

Interesting. So you refuse to accept what the writers of the bible state, unless they are directly quoting the words of Christ or God?
You must have a very slimmed down bible!!

 

[stuart lawrence]

This is the fourth time on this forum I have had direct, or tangential association with Ellen White because of my position on the Law and Sabbath.

Is it so farfetched that people choose to follow the Sabbath because of the Word of God, and not because of a human?

I am not SDA, have nothing necessarily against them.

As I said, no one in life, or on these forums, has been able to show me where Christ or God said His law is conditional upon the believer, conditional upon the person''s genetic Hebrew lineage, and/or that any of it is null, void or inert.

Until someone can show me where either Christ, or God said we can freely ignore any of His law because of whatever reason, I will certainly oblige that spiritual trajectory.

But, since I am responsible for the trajectory of my own soul, I have to take Christ''s word for what it is: not one iota or tittle of the law will pass away until heaven and earth do, and He didn't come to destroy the law - but to fulfil it. I also have to take God's word for it about the New Covenant - that it is a covenant that outs the LAW on the HEART of every man so that NO ONE has to ask their neighbor, "do you know God?" It says nothing about ignoring His law for any person of condition; quite the contrary. The terms of His contract for those who want to be His people are explicitly laid out.

So you agree the law is placed on the heart of the Christian.
You also I assume agree, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Therefore, if you understand the implications of this, you would have to believe no one can be a christian unless they have heartfelt conviction they commit wilfull by failing to observe a set Sabbath day.

The SDA dont realise this!

 

[stuart lawrence]

I love my Brothers and Sisters who are 7th day,I simply disagree with some of the doctrine they follow.
Not the Sabbath but the importance of Ellen White as a prophet.
God's Word is all I consider for truth,if a teacher is teaching from the Word not embellishing it I'm fine.

The SDA follow after the letter, not the Holy Spirit.
I could go much into this, having spent Time with sda, and in their church for a few months to please a friend.

I will just mention two things.

In the church I went to, they earnestly stressed the Ten Commandments must be obeyed. Yet people were going around casually taking the Lords name In vain, apparently oblivious to the fact they committed sin according to the TC.

Also, in that church I visited I saw more flagrant immorality than in any other church I have worshipped at in over fifty years of going to various churches.
Such is the result of looking to the letter and striving to obey it to be justified for heaven.
Dont let these people fool you with hollow words.
They do indeed believe you are justified for heaven by obeying some of the letter of the law. And the result for them, is as the result was 2,000 years ago for those who most earnestly took This route

 

[Aryeh]

Interesting. So you refuse to accept what the writers of the bible state, unless they are directly quoting the words of Christ or God?
You must have a very slimmed down bible!!

I didn't say that at all.

I said I wanted the directive concerning LAW from the actual LAW MAKER - Christ/God - not an interpreter of the law.

The writers of the Bible are humans just like me.

If they contradict what God says, then they are liars. God never once said that any of His law was null, void, or conditional depending on the genetics of a believer.

Therefore, any person of the Bible stating that there is a conditional expectation of following God's law, that any of it is null or inter - then they are also liars.

Unless, that is, those persons can show where God or Christ gave these conditions.

God, and Christ are the only Ones who have authoritative say on the Law - it's purpose, function, and activity.


It is very simple: if we are to NOT follow the Sabbath, or the 10 commandments, or any Law, then show where the LAWMAKER says this.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I didn't say that at all.

I said I wanted the directive concerning LAW from the actual LAW MAKER - Christ/God - not an interpreter of the law.

The writers of the Bible are humans just like me.

If they contradict what God says, then they are liars. God never once said that any of His law was null, void, or conditional depending on the genetics of a believer.

Therefore, any person of the Bible stating that there is a conditional expectation of following God's law, that any of it is null or inter - then they are also liars.

Unless, that is, those persons can show where God or Christ gave these conditions.

God, and Christ are the only Ones who have authoritative say on the Law - it's purpose, function, and activity.


It is very simple: if we are to NOT follow the Sabbath, or the 10 commandments, or any Law, then show where the LAWMAKER says this.

Then do you trim your beard as required under the law?

However, if you refuse to accept what writers of the bible plainly state, you call into question the very bible itself. Such Is the lengths you will go to, to cling to your particular beliefs

 

[Aryeh]

So you agree the law is placed on the heart of the Christian.
You also I assume agree, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Nope, through conviction by the Holy Spirit are we made conscious of sin.

Therefore, if you understand the implications of this, you would have to believe no one can be a christian unless they have heartfelt conviction they commit wilfull by failing to observe a set Sabbath day.

This is always where opponents of anyone who advocates following the Law an/or Sabbath always poke a hole in their case.

Following the law does not justify salvation. It doesn't even determine your spiritual title: have we forgotten the pharisees were some of the best law keepers, but some of the most spiritually inept?

In addition, the thief on the cross did not have to itemize how much law he followed to be accepted. The "harlot" about to be stoned didn't itemize her lawfulness. These were accepted on account of their acceptance of Christmas


That makes a Christian - the relationship between soul, Christ and God.

The SDA dont realise this!

Again, I am not a SDA, but I believe the SDA I have engaged fully understand their positions, and the implications.

I cant, and dare not speak for a SDA. But, I am speaking for myself.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Nope, through conviction by the Holy Spirit are we made conscious of sin.



This is always where opponents of anyone who advocates following the Law an/or Sabbath always poke a hole in their case.

Following the law does not justify salvation. It doesn't even determine your spiritual title: have we forgotten the pharisees were some of the best law keepers, but some of the most spiritually inept?

In addition, the thief on the cross did not have to itemize how much law he followed to be accepted. The "harlot" about to be stoned didn't itemize her lawfulness. These were accepted on account of their acceptance of Christmas


That makes a Christian - the relationship between soul, Christ and God.



Again, I am not a SDA, but I believe the SDA I have engaged fully understand their positions, and the implications.

I cant, and dare not speak for a SDA. But, I am speaking for myself.

So no christian has to obey the TC to be justified to enter heaven?

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin

Rom3:20

Paul disagrees with your nope

 

[Aryeh]

Then do you trim your beard as required under the law?

However, if you refuse to accept what writers of the bible plainly state, you call into question the very bible itself. Such Is the lengths you will go to, to cling to your particular beliefs

Do you even know the context of WHY God said that?

I will give you a hint: I don't worship the god Orotal, I do not cut my hair for the dead, and I do not ornament my beard for the purposes of mimicry of Arab, Egyptian, Mithric, druid or occult practices and culture.

The law of MAR(gin)ing you hair is an Arab practice for other gods, for example. God gave the law because He demanded that the Hebrews do nothing else like their practices IN Egypt - where they often did things Leviticus speaks against.

God was not against grooming, or even upkeep (i.e. cutting hair.) IN fact, it is an abomination (ridiculous, dishonerable) for a man to have ornamented, long feminine hair (or, long feminine curls.)

In order to reject the Law, you should know why it was put in place in the first place.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Do you even know the context of WHY God said that?

I will give you a hint: I don't worship the god Orotal, I do not cut my hair for the dead, and I do not ornament my beard for the purposes of mimicry of Arab, Egyptian, Mithric, druid or occult practices and culture.

The law of MAR(gin)ing you hair is an Arab practice for other gods, for example. God gave the law because He demanded that the Hebrews do nothing else like their practices IN Egypt - where they often did things Leviticus speaks against.

God was not against grooming, or even upkeep (i.e. cutting hair.) IN fact, it is an abomination (ridiculous, dishonerable) for a man to have ornamented, long feminine hair (or, long feminine curls.)

In order to reject the Law, you should know why it was put in place in the first place.

So you don't believe all OT law must be followed, so some of it God does not expect Christians to follow. Good, that is made clear.

 

[Aryeh]

So no christian has to obey the TC to be justified to enter heaven?

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin

Rom3:20

Paul disagrees with your nope

This is why I want it from the Horse''s mouth, because if that is the case, Christ disagrees with Paul:

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." John 16:7-11

That is why I said I want the words from the LAWMAKER, not the INTERPRETER of the Law. Calibrated to Christ, if anyone disagrees with Him, or contradicts Him, then they are liars. It is that simple.

 

[Aryeh]

So you don't believe all OT law must be followed, so some of it God does not expect Christians to follow. Good, that is made clear.

Did I say that either?

I think all of God's law should be followed.

But, I said people often oversimplify the purpose of His Law, and how to follow His Law, and why it is Law.

As said before, the Law referring to cutting hair is not about grooming. It is about idol and deity worshipping practices - the same God delivered the Hebrews from in Egypt, and a reason why He made it law.

Christians should follow all of God's law. He demands perfection, but a serious effort toward obedience - mixed with grace, faith in Christ, endurance and love of God - will do also.

Christ's sacrifice freed us from the Law condemning us if we fail to uphold it perfectly - He didn't free us from FOLLOWNG the Law. That is absurd.

 

[stuart lawrence]

This is why I want it from the Horse''s mouth, because if that is the case, Christ disagrees with Paul:

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." John 16:7-11

That is why I said I want the words from the LAWMAKER, not the INTERPRETER of the Law. Calibrated to Christ, if anyone disagrees with Him, or contradicts Him, then they are liars. It is that simple.

So you claim the person who wrote half the books of the NT is a liar? Oh well!

In the NI V it states the Holy Spirit will convict the world regarding GUILT of sin. The Spirit can only convict of sin THROUGH the law. For sin is the transgression of the law.
Put it This way. If I didn't know the law states I can only drive at 70 MPH on the motorway, I could exceed That limit without belong aware I transgress the law of the land.
Therefore, through the knowledge of Gods laws we become conscious of our shortfall of obedience to them, and our shortfall of obedience is our sin

 

[stuart lawrence]

Did I say that either?

I think all of God's law should be followed.

But, I said people often oversimplify the purpose of His Law, and how to follow His Law, and why it is Law.

As said before, the Law referring to cutting hair is not about grooming. It is about idol and deity worshipping practices - the same God delivered the Hebrews from in Egypt, and a reason why He made it law.

Christians should follow all of God's law. He demands perfection, but a serious effort toward obedience - mixed with grace, faith in Christ, endurance and love of God - will do also.

Christ's sacrifice freed us from the Law condemning us if we fail to uphold it perfectly - He didn't free us from FOLLOWNG the Law. That is absurd.

Nice try, but if you don't believe you have to trim your beard, you don't believe all written OT law must be followed. Though you are doing great at trying to evade it!!

 

[Aryeh]

Nice try, but if you don't believe you have to trim your beard, you don't believe all written OT law must be followed. Though you are doing great at trying to evade it!!

You are trying to argue a premise you don't understand. Or, you aren't trying to understand.

That leviticus passage is not talking about grooming - like casual trimming of beard - at all. The technique of cut, purpose and intention is very specific. As said, it was culturally done in the Arab region to worship the god Orotal.

No one is evading anything except perhaps you: we have gone on a raging tangent from my simple request: show me where Christ, or God gives details on the conditional following of His law, or information on what laws are null and inert.

 

[Aryeh]

So you claim the person who wrote half the books of the NT is a liar? Oh well!

In the NI V it states the Holy Spirit will convict the world regarding GUILT of sin. The Spirit can only convict of sin THROUGH the law. For sin is the transgression of the law.
Put it This way. If I didn't know the law states I can only drive at 70 MPH on the motorway, I could exceed That limit without belong aware I transgress the law of the land.
Therefore, through the knowledge of Gods laws we become conscious of our shortfall of obedience to them, and our shortfall of obedience is our sin

If the person who wrote half of the new testament contradicts Christ, then he is a liar.

And, I have no problem saying that. At all.

So, you work out those details: if you think Paul is saying something and it contradicts Christ, either your interpretation is wrong, or Paul is wrong.

But, it isn't Christ who is wrong.

 

[stuart lawrence]

If the person who wrote half of the new testament contradicts Christ, then he is a liar.

And, I have no problem saying that. At all.

So, you work out those details: if you think Paul is saying something and it contradicts Christ, either your interpretation is wrong, or Paul is wrong.

But, it isn't Christ who is wrong.

To state:
Through the law we become conscious of sin is accurate and true, as I have just explained to you.

Jesus said, the Holy Spirit who was to be sent would convict the world, in regard to sin, not believing on him.
Why did Jesus not say, the Holy Spirit would convict of sin, regarding transgression of the law?

So according to Jesus, under the new covenant, guilt of sin is not believing on him, it is not transgression of the law.
And as you say, anyone who opposes Christs words is a liar

 

[Aryeh]

To state:
Through the law we become conscious of sin is accurate and true, as I have just explained to you.

Jesus said, the Holy Spirit who was to be sent would convict the world, in regard to sin, not believing on him.
Why did Jesus not say, the Holy Spirit would convict of sin, regarding transgression of the law?

So according to Jesus, under the new covenant, guilt of sin is not believing on him, it is not transgression of the law.
And as you say, anyone who opposes Christs words is a liar

I am not going to play this game with you.

You still owe me an answer to my initial question - one which has been danced around for too long.