LDS More False Doctrine Right There in LDS Scripture!

[Jane_Doe]

So what do Mormons believe?

That was thoroughly answered in post 147. You're blatantly ignoring it and then proceeded to try to "inform" LDS people what you think they believe. Why?

This is a difficult one, because if you read the Book of Mormon 'cover to cover' as Jane asked then it is difficult to find any real mention of this

Why don't you respond to what posted?

The answer unfortunately come back to Joseph Smith and his quest for many wives.
Joseph Smith wanted his followers to marry multiple wives so created this doctine of becoming Gods and documented in another book. Doctrines and covernants section 132.

This is an unsubstantiated red harring.

This contradicts both the bible and the Book of Mormon.

The d&c is where the teaching of the marriage in temple leads to a mortal man becoming a God!

1) You're skewing this.
2) Are you trying to tell me that you do not believe a believer in Christ becomes ONE with God and a joint hair with Christ?

Now for Christians this is just another serious error, but for a Mormon what would he have to do or not do to convince you he was not a prophet?

Another off-topic red herring.

Maybe it's all anti Christian lies however the official lds documents are starting to acknowledge some of the things this man did.

Your position here is laughable.

It must take great faith to believe he was a prophet, unless you didn't really research what Joseph Smith did but just simple said a prayer and got a feeling. Taking James 1:5 out of context does not justify this.

Why are you so are drastically opposed to asking God a question? You say you' don't believe He's mute, but you're acting like it and mocking LDS for believing God speaks.

This is why it is confusing and I guess it would be possible for a Mormon who has read the Book of Mormon and the bible but no other Mormon books to believe in the one true God. This is only my assumption..

You're laughably wrong.

Perhaps some Mormons do not believe the Doctrines and covernants although I have been told they do.

We DO believe the D&C and yes it is read. In fact Sunday School is one it this week.

Also what do think of Orson Pratt - he believed in some quite strange things:
“If we should take a million of worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds.”

I believe you're trying to use Orsan Pratt as yet another red herring.

 

[DJItalianspur]

Luther broke away from the Catholic Church, forming the Luteran church. Numerous other break off occurred after this. And then break offs from the break offs, including the Evangelical church.

These different Christian churches disagree on major issues such as:
* Which books are in the Bible
* What is needed for salvation
* Whether or not Christ has a representative on this Earth
* Whether or not there is free will
And many more.

Obviously I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Contrary to anything the Bible says.

And a correction here: the numerical majority of Christians (Catholics & Orthodox) believe that God does speak through His servants and they issue infallible decrees from Him. This is the backing of many doctrines there, such as the Trinity and Marian doctrines.

Actually there were many books written after Revelation. Examples include the the Gospel of John, the Epistle of John, 2nd Peter, 1st & 2nd Timothy and Titus.

So you believe the Catholic Church is in apostasy?

????

1) Orsan Pratt was never the Prophet
2) You're not quoting an official source.
3) You're plagiarizing by not bothering to site your source.
4) Again, like numerical majority of Christians, LDS reject the idea of sola scriptura.

Well you could argue Smith broke away from a church, it fact cowdry broke away from Smith and after Smith at least 6 broke away from this Church and so one. We believe in one universal church but many different church's, the first part of revelation was addresed to seven different churches, not different in doctrine but location. Martin Luther was a Catholic but read the bible. Some people are atheists and become Christians and start churches that doesn't mean that church is a break away from atheism.

Which lds are you a member of, brigham youngs or one of the other six?

I was going to say that Smith broke away from free masonary, but I do 't have any evidence of this!

Did Joseph Smith father ever break away from the New Isrealites? You know Nathaniel Wood. Now was he a prophet? Do you want to take James 1:5 out of context again?

 

[Jane_Doe]

God speaks to us through his word.

Like a dead man!
A living speaking God would speak today as well.

Look at the fruit of the bible look at the reformation and the impact it has had on well the world!

Look at the reformation? Aka men removing books from the Bible? Men claiming that they know what the Bible truly says (except that they all disagree each other)? Look at them introducing ideas foreign to the Bible? Ensuing chaos? Christians killing Christians based on disagreements on what the Bible says? That's "great" fruit?

I don't turn to men

Every time you turn to CARM you're turning to men. You've done it many times this thread and passionately defend your actions there.

We don't have prophets,

Unbiblicaly so. You're acting like God is mute or dead.

I don't mock the idea God speaks

Then show me your prophets! Then get down on your knees and humbly ask Him something!

I am showing you that Joseph Smith did not speak Gods word

You're actually having the opposite effect...

 

[DJItalianspur]

That was thoroughly answered in post 147. You're blatantly ignoring it and then proceeded to try to "inform" LDS people what you think they believe. Why?

Why don't you respond to what posted?

This is an unsubstantiated red harring.


1) You're skewing this.
2) Are you trying to tell me that you do not believe a believer in Christ becomes ONE with God and a joint hair with Christ?

Another off-topic red herring.

Your position here is laughable.

Why are you so are drastically opposed to asking God a question? You say you' don't believe He's mute, but you're acting like it and mocking LDS for believing God speaks.

You're laughably wrong.

We DO believe the D&C and yes it is read. In fact Sunday School is one it this week.

I believe you're trying to use Orsan Pratt as yet another red herring.

Jane you don't quote the Doctines and covernants much in this reply, maybe let Withwounderawe answer?

I will have a short break as I have posted quite a lot and need to allow other to post and respond, I will read posts and respond later.

I will give you a response to asking God if the Book of Mormon is true, I have done done this after I was invited many years ago, I read parts of the book, but God revealed to me that the bible is true since then I have found more and more errors with Mormon teaching and want to share some of the errors with Mormons so they can either correct me or see them selves, we can't both be right so let's keep studying! Have great day

 

[Jane_Doe]

. We believe in one universal church but many different church's

That disagree on which books are in the Bible, what is needed for salvation, whether or not Christ has a representative on this Earth, whether or not there is free will, and many more things. Whom have killed each other based on these disagreements?

That's not one church.

.
not different in doctrine but location.

Hence your example here is irrelevant. These church vary on core doctrines.

.
Which lds are you a member of, brigham youngs or one of the other six?

Answered in post 157.

 

[fatboys]

Jane you don't quote the Doctines and covernants much in this reply, maybe let Withwounderawe answer?

I will have a short break as I have posted quite a lot and need to allow other to post and respond, I will read posts and respond later.

I will give you a response to asking God if the Book of Mormon is true, I have done done this after I was invited many years ago, I read parts of the book, but God revealed to me that the bible is true since then I have found more and more errors with Mormon teaching and want to share some of the errors with Mormons so they can either correct me or see them selves, we can't both be right so let's keep studying! Have great day

And just how was this manifest to you?

 

[Rescued One]

Ephesians 6
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:



"They received the Word with all readiness of mind,
and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
Acts 17:11

The Bible is God speaking to us today.

The Holy Spirit is God teaching us true doctrine as opposed to false doctrine.

John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you...

26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jeremiah 23
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

2 Corithians 10
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

 

[Rescued One]

And just how was this manifest to you?

You've asked that question of non-Mormons many times.

John 14
26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Jane you don't quote the Doctines and covernants much in this reply

I quoted in 6 times in post 147 alone.

I will give you a response to asking God if the Book of Mormon is true, I have done done this after I was invited many years ago,

Did you do so and actually listen for the answer? Were you ok hearing an answer of "yes" and wiling to act on such an answer?

I read parts of the book

So you're critiquing a book you haven't finished reading..

God revealed to me that the bible is true

LDS believe this.

since then I have found more and more errors with Mormon teaching and want to share some of the errors with Mormons so they can either correct me or see them selves, we can't both be right so let's keep studying! Have great day

Are you willing to be corrected?

 

[fatboys]

You've asked that question of non-Mormons many times.

John 14
26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

And you have never ever answered it. Never. How does the Holy Ghost talk to you?

 

[Rescued One]

And you have never ever answered it. Never. How does the Holy Ghost talk to you?

You don't understand the answer.

John 14
26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I’m sorry this thread has so much on it I’ve gotten a little lost, these are questions from DJ

*back there on a post I can’t find at the moment you mentioned what you called Joseph’s adultery again.

You and I simply are not going to agree on the definition of adultery and the practice of plural marriage. Under your definition Abraham, Jacob & Moses are all adulterers. I believe God sanctioned their marriages and they were not committing adultery when they had more than one wife. I believe Joseph also was given more than one wife as part of the “restitution of all things” (Act 3) . Plural marriage is part of the higher law, it is very difficult to live and so only the most righteous can live it. It is part of the Celestial law and those entering the Celestial Kingdom will live it.

*You mention 11 witness and many more, were they there when God the father, or Christ or both of them (Joseph Smith gives three different accounts) appeared to Joseph Smith?

When Joseph went into the woods to pray he was alone and when Moroni appeared to him he was again alone. However there were the 11 who saw Moroni and handled the plates along with several other items. Then later there are various vision which were seen by numerous people. There is an incident much like what is found in Ex 24

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

The men there with Joseph did not speak about it because it was a sacred and holy event, there are just small reverence to it in different journals. It has taken a few years and having computers to pull together these stories so that we know something marvelous happened.

There are also stories of the dedication of the Kirtland Temple which became a day of Pentecost, where many saw angles. Joseph and Oliver Cowdery saw the Lord and had many other visitations.
I have sat in a room with a very much alive Apostle when he said (I’m paraphrasing)

‘I wish I could tell you all that I’ve seen and heard, if I did you would know that this is the Lord’s Church but the Spirit constrains me. However I will say that I am a special witness of Jesus Christ and I know that he lives’.

Afterward the Stake President stood up and said ,I witness to you that this brother is truly a friend of Christ.’

Having visits from Jesus is not something that just happened in the New Testament nor just at the time of Joseph Smith but is on going.

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God: Matt. 5:8

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him” John 14


*When it comes to the different version of Joseph’s first vision I believe you are wrong there are 4 different versions.

Are you ready to call Paul a false prophet based on the fact that there are several different versions of his stories?

The earliest description Joseph gives is just a short synopsis and he uses a biblical phrase to describe his sacred experience.

“…a pillar of light above the brightness of the sun at noon day came down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the Spirit of God and the Lord opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying …” (I corrected the spelling and langue)

Key to this is ‘the Lord opened the heavens”

At the baptism of Jesus this phrase is also used;

21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

In Paul’s experience he saw the Lord but the men with him did not, they heard a voice. (Acts 9)

But wait in Acts 22 Paul says
9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

If you read that closely he does not say he saw the Lord but that he heard a voice only but in Act 26 he enlarges upon his story and adds this words to the Lord “ for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose..” So we really do not know that Jesus appeared to him until we get to Acts 26.

What this means that different people have different perceptions of what was seen and what was not. Perhaps they had different experience some saw and some did not. It also means that Prophets often do not tell us everything they have seen, they regard these experiences as sacred.

We have to ask what all did John the Baptist see when the heavens were opened, we don’t know because we don’t have his own words.

In Matt 11 Jesus explains
“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

With Stephen actually described in more detail what he saw when the heavens were opened .

“But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” Acts 7

It is a phrase prophets use to hold thing sacred and to deliberately not describe everything they are seeing.



*When Joseph Smith claims that the Church stayed with him, more so than Paul, Peter and Christ (who is the head of the Church) was he joking? I am not sure I understand why anyone would say this? Perhaps you could explain another way?

By the time he was finished he wasn’t, he truly loved the people who has accepted him as a prophet of God and was amazed at the loyalty they gave him. Like the early Christians many face martyrdom and gave up all their personal possessions as they face the mobs coming in on them. Truly they were a virtuous and good people.

* this is from posting 141
This is what is idenfied by those who are not Mormons as false prophecy. The government did not get over thrown but was elected out (like all governments are eventually are).

By your strict standard then Jonah was a false prophet.

“And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.” Jonah 3

Nineveh was not overthrown.

 

[withwonderingawe]

it fact cowdry broke away from Smith

Oliver Cowdery did not brake away to form his own Church he left in anger and some historians believe it was more about the United Order and having to give up his personal property. One would think after seeing all that he saw he would never leave Joseph's side but Judas betrayed Jesus so seeing does not make one like cement. Many other's who saw nothing were more faithful in their following. I think it is because Oliver, Martin Harris and David Whitmer knew Joseph personally they saw his faults more than others and so it was easy to find fault. Both Oliver and Martin returned to the Church but David in his anger never did and with others formed what became the Reorganized Church.

With David something odd happened, my hubby's great great grandfather was on the council that brought him up on charges, he felt they were moving to fast and wanted to wait until Joseph got there. They put it off for a day or so and then there was another vote, however this time Grandpa is not there. How did that happen? Who removed him? David was accused of being dishonest, of selling some property that should have gone to the church, kind of like Ananias and Sapphira in Act 5. David who everyone praised as an honest man even in his obituary was so anger at the whole process he did not show up to defend himself. It just seems like someone was pushing these early leaders out.

Now many hold that this was allowed because this meant none of the witnesses were by Joseph's side on the day he died. They lived to repeat their testimony of what they saw for many years which was their calling.

 

[Rescued One]

No living Mormons knew anyone who committed adultery or left the church in the nineteenth century. Neither did opponents of Mormonism. Which side can prove the other wrong or determine what a long deceased person's motive was?

 

[withwonderingawe]

In your own word please explain if Christ was created and how?

Here’s the answer; Yes and No,

We reject the idea of an immaterial substance, no thinking goes on outside of matter, there is no power without matter.

God reveled to Joseph “…The elements are eternal….Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” D&C 93:33

The basic essence, for lack of a better word, which makes you you is this light and intelligence. It is uncreated, it is part of the light of God the Father. It has gender and it has a will of it’s own.

D&C 88
“11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things,

Bible passages

I don’t know that the people of the OT had this concept reveled to them however Job uses the phrase “the light of my countenance”. In the New Testament Jesus speak of our lights when he says “let your light so shine…” and God the Father is referred to as “the Father of lights” James 1:17.

In our Book of Abraham he is shown the eternal uncreated intelligence which become spirits.
Abr 3: 22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God,

This one that was among them was Yahweh. In this sense he is uncreated, his intelligence has always existed. Once more unlike us he had no darkness in him, he was perfect in his righteousness. (Heb 1)

In Rev 3 calls him “ the beginning of the creation of God” and he is also referred to as “the firstborn” . God the Father takes this intelligence and clothes it in spirit matter, this is why he bears the title of The Father of Spirits, Heb 12.

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter (and eternal), but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes.

The being we know as Yahweh was the first clothed in this pure spirit matter and so in this was He is a created being. Because of his perfect righteousness he was God or anointed God by his God and Father, Heb 1. Through him God the Father created or organized all that is physical and he became the God of this world and all of the Father’s creations.

Then in the meridian of this earth’s time Yahweh took on flesh created in the womb of the Virgin Mary. Yahweh entered the little body to become a living soul. He was now known as Jesus, the God and Savior of this earth.

So in one sense Jesus is uncreated and eternal in the heavens but in another sense He is the beginning of God’s creation, the firstborn.

There is one passage in 2 Cor 5 which hints at the doctrine.

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (our earthly bodies) were dissolved, we have a building of God (our spirits), an house not made with hands (or not mortal) , eternal in the heavens.

The spirit is also referred to as a house so what does it house? It also says this spirit is eternal.

Hope that helps your understanding.

 

[DJItalianspur]

Oliver Cowdery did not brake away to form his own Church he left in anger and some historians believe it was more about the United Order and having to give up his personal property. One would think after seeing all that he saw he would never leave Joseph's side but Judas betrayed Jesus so seeing does not make one like cement. Many other's who saw nothing were more faithful in their following. I think it is because Oliver, Martin Harris and David Whitmer knew Joseph personally they saw his faults more than others and so it was easy to find fault. Both Oliver and Martin returned to the Church but David in his anger never did and with others formed what became the Reorganized Church.

With David something odd happened, my hubby's great great grandfather was on the council that brought him up on charges, he felt they were moving to fast and wanted to wait until Joseph got there. They put it off for a day or so and then there was another vote, however this time Grandpa is not there. How did that happen? Who removed him? David was accused of being dishonest, of selling some property that should have gone to the church, kind of like Ananias and Sapphira in Act 5. David who everyone praised as an honest man even in his obituary was so anger at the whole process he did not show up to defend himself. It just seems like someone was pushing these early leaders out.

Now many hold that this was allowed because this meant none of the witnesses were by Joseph's side on the day he died. They lived to repeat their testimony of what they saw for many years which was their calling.

Some historians believe..... what do you believe and what do the lds teach?

It could equally be argued using this mans testimony that after what he saw it was the write thing to do to break away from Smith. Did Cowdry see the gold plates, did anyone see the gold plates? Do later witness confirm Smith was looking into a hat?

Maybe what happened to these three show that the followers of Smith were not loyal, so when Smith claimed his church were more loyal to him than Christ, he may have lied or been very, very deluded!

If the true church was in apostasy how did Smith and the Book of Mormon get the church out of apostasy? Where is the fruit (the good fruit)? early records of Smith and others show that compared to other churches this new branch was more immoral than the world!

How does the lds defend this?

 

[Jane_Doe]

How does the lds defend this?

Simple: if an LDS person (or anybody else) wants to know the Truth about this or anything else, they should do as the Bible directs and ask God.

 

[DJItalianspur]

I’m sorry this thread has so much on it I’ve gotten a little lost, these are questions from DJ

*back there on a post I can’t find at the moment you mentioned what you called Joseph’s adultery again.

You and I simply are not going to agree on the definition of adultery and the practice of plural marriage. Under your definition Abraham, Jacob & Moses are all adulterers. I believe God sanctioned their marriages and they were not committing adultery when they had more than one wife. I believe Joseph also was given more than one wife as part of the “restitution of all things” (Act 3) . Plural marriage is part of the higher law, it is very difficult to live and so only the most righteous can live it. It is part of the Celestial law and those entering the Celestial Kingdom will live it.

*You mention 11 witness and many more, were they there when God the father, or Christ or both of them (Joseph Smith gives three different accounts) appeared to Joseph Smith?

When Joseph went into the woods to pray he was alone and when Moroni appeared to him he was again alone. However there were the 11 who saw Moroni and handled the plates along with several other items. Then later there are various vision which were seen by numerous people. There is an incident much like what is found in Ex 24

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

The men there with Joseph did not speak about it because it was a sacred and holy event, there are just small reverence to it in different journals. It has taken a few years and having computers to pull together these stories so that we know something marvelous happened.

There are also stories of the dedication of the Kirtland Temple which became a day of Pentecost, where many saw angles. Joseph and Oliver Cowdery saw the Lord and had many other visitations.
I have sat in a room with a very much alive Apostle when he said (I’m paraphrasing)

‘I wish I could tell you all that I’ve seen and heard, if I did you would know that this is the Lord’s Church but the Spirit constrains me. However I will say that I am a special witness of Jesus Christ and I know that he lives’.

Afterward the Stake President stood up and said ,I witness to you that this brother is truly a friend of Christ.’

Having visits from Jesus is not something that just happened in the New Testament nor just at the time of Joseph Smith but is on going.

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God: Matt. 5:8

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him” John 14


*When it comes to the different version of Joseph’s first vision I believe you are wrong there are 4 different versions.

Are you ready to call Paul a false prophet based on the fact that there are several different versions of his stories?

The earliest description Joseph gives is just a short synopsis and he uses a biblical phrase to describe his sacred experience.

“…a pillar of light above the brightness of the sun at noon day came down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the Spirit of God and the Lord opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying …” (I corrected the spelling and langue)

Key to this is ‘the Lord opened the heavens”

At the baptism of Jesus this phrase is also used;

21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

In Paul’s experience he saw the Lord but the men with him did not, they heard a voice. (Acts 9)

But wait in Acts 22 Paul says
9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

If you read that closely he does not say he saw the Lord but that he heard a voice only but in Act 26 he enlarges upon his story and adds this words to the Lord “ for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose..” So we really do not know that Jesus appeared to him until we get to Acts 26.

What this means that different people have different perceptions of what was seen and what was not. Perhaps they had different experience some saw and some did not. It also means that Prophets often do not tell us everything they have seen, they regard these experiences as sacred.

We have to ask what all did John the Baptist see when the heavens were opened, we don’t know because we don’t have his own words.

In Matt 11 Jesus explains
“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

With Stephen actually described in more detail what he saw when the heavens were opened .

“But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” Acts 7

It is a phrase prophets use to hold thing sacred and to deliberately not describe everything they are seeing.



*When Joseph Smith claims that the Church stayed with him, more so than Paul, Peter and Christ (who is the head of the Church) was he joking? I am not sure I understand why anyone would say this? Perhaps you could explain another way?

By the time he was finished he wasn’t, he truly loved the people who has accepted him as a prophet of God and was amazed at the loyalty they gave him. Like the early Christians many face martyrdom and gave up all their personal possessions as they face the mobs coming in on them. Truly they were a virtuous and good people.

* this is from posting 141
This is what is idenfied by those who are not Mormons as false prophecy. The government did not get over thrown but was elected out (like all governments are eventually are).

By your strict standard then Jonah was a false prophet.

“And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.” Jonah 3

Nineveh was not overthrown.

Just on the last point about Jonah, this does not directly deal with the problem - Smiths prophecy was not fulfilled, I am not sure if any of his prophecy was fulfilled. So according the bible standards what does this make him?

The prophecy of Jonah was fulfilled. But even if it was not and we call Jonah a false prophet, this does not mean that Smith is justified and it is ok to say false prophecy. Do the lds have a better answer?

Nineveh repeat end but later went back to her evil ways and the city was ultimately destroyed.

For more info on this if you are interested I can send you links which go into details. This is something JW's use so there are many sites which identify this.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Just on the last point about Jonah, this does not directly deal with the problem - Smiths prophecy was not fulfilled

And neither was Jonah's. Does that mean Jonah was a false prophet? Or is there something else going on?

So according the bible standards what does this make him?

Same with Jonah.

The prophecy of Jonah was fulfilled.

On which verse does it say Nineveh was overthrown? My KJV Bible doesn't says the opposite.

But even if it was not and we call Jonah a false prophet, this does not mean that Smith is justified and it is ok to say false prophecy. Do the lds have a better answer?

It means your "test" is faulty. Or that the Bible is faulty.

 

[DJItalianspur]

Simple: if an LDS person (or anybody else) wants to know the Truth about this or anything else, they should do as the Bible directs and ask God.

And obey the bible when it gives us clear instruction.

I remember in one of these threads you mentioning there were 30,000 different denominations. Are they all wrong or is one true, how do we know?

Did you take James 1:5 out of context and ask God about each of the 30,000 congregations is true, or did you only apply James 1:5 out of context to lds?

What do think about James 1:5 are we allowed to look at it in context? Have you ever really studied James? Who is author, what is the purpose, what is the background e.t.c I think it's fair to say Smith never studied it, do think maybe God may have wanted Smith to study his word?

If it is the main stream lds you are a member of, this was influenced by brigham young, was it 56 wives he had, have you asked God for wisdom on this?

God gives everyone of us a conscience, how does brigham youngs life and his teaching sit with you, better or worse than Smith? The lds have statues of this man do they not? Do they have statues of his 56 wives?

Another prophet? Did you ask God about him and every self proclaimed prophet since Smith? Or do we accept the lds view even if it is not clear/amended, if so which lds view today's view?

I think we need to do a little more that take James 1:5 out of context, dont you?