The LAW Paul vs. Jesus

[Athée]

Recommend asking the group what the stated reward was at Sinai for following the Law and all the statutes.

There was a knowledge of resurrection in the OT, which we can discuss if you want. However, there was no mention of eternal life for following the Mosiac law. The reward was earthly and tangible. A plot of land living in peace with no disease or miscarriage. There's more but it was all temporal.

I would argue the Big Ten, the Decalogue, Exodus 20 applied to all humans since Eden.

We know specially murder, adultery, theft, honoring mother and father and idolatry were all things indicated as wicked. All prior to Sinai. Other sins such as not taking care of the poor, widow or orphan were also emphasized.

Sounds like the Greatest commandment doesn't it?

What a great post, thank you for your insights here. So again we have confirmation that it really and truly is not a salvation issue but rather a question of how God wants people to live (either just the Jews or everybody or some other option).
So do you think you should be trying to obey the OT law as a way of living the life God wants of you, out of obedience rather than out of some concern for salvation or do you believe that the injunction were it meant for you and no longer represent the kind of life God wants you to live?

 

[inquiring mind]

OK so what does this mean for you in regards to weather or not Christians today should be trying to follow the OT laws, not as a matter of salvation, but as a matter of obedience and in the attempt (though bound to fall short) of living a life pleasing to God? Jesus said after the sermon on the mount that his audience was to follow all the ot laws and teach others to do the same. Does this apply to you today? Why or why not?

Someone already posted this I believe, but when Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15).

“Instead, Christians are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:40). Now, this does not mean the Old Testament law is irrelevant today. Many of the commands in the Old Testament law fall into the categories of “loving God” and “loving your neighbor.” The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor. At the same time, to say that the Old Testament law applies to Christians today is incorrect. The Old Testament law is a unit (James 2:10). Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some of it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.” Do Christians have to obey the Old Testament law?

 

[Athée]

No one is good. Even if you could live all 10 commandments, you'd still
not be good. There is only one good, that's God.
It's not just doing the breaking of these laws that are a sin.
but it's also our thoughts that can break these laws. If you look at a person with lust you've committed adultery in your heart already. If you hate your brother without cause, you're in danger of Hell fire. If you hate your brother you are a murder and have no eternal life in you at all.
God just doesn't see and know what you do. He knows what you intend or would like to do also.
The law is the schoolmaster that brings you to Christ.

First, you should repent of your sins and place your trust in Christ.
Once you do this then you will not want to sin. Your desires will change, from desiring to serve self to desiring to serve God. By reading His Word, prayer and telling others in some way in what He did for you and them.
All things become Old and he creates a new man out of you. He renews your mind through the Word and changes your life.
Believe me, it is a life changing experience to know God and to experience Him in your life.

Fair enough but I don't think you have addressed the question at issue. I am not asking if anyone can faithfully live by those laws today or what their purpose is. Rather I am asking in you think you are included in the group of people to whom Jesus specifically commanded that they were still expected to obey the law and teach others to do likewise. Does this apply to you today? Why or why not?

 

[Athée]

Someone already posted this I believe, but when Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15).

“Instead, Christians are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:40). Now, this does not mean the Old Testament law is irrelevant today. Many of the commands in the Old Testament law fall into the categories of “loving God” and “loving your neighbor.” The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor. At the same time, to say that the Old Testament law applies to Christians today is incorrect. The Old Testament law is a unit (James 2:10). Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some of it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.” Do Christians have to obey the Old Testament law?

Thanks for a great post!
So a few questions. You said that Christ Dis away with the law when he died on the cross but in the Matthew passage he says that he expects these people to follow all of the law and teach others to do likewise until such time as heaven and earth pass away. Since heaven and earth have not passed away how do you reconcile those two positions?

As for the two summary commands upon which hang the law and the prophets do you agree that if you were to follow those two perfectly you would also by default follow the entire law perfectly as well? For instance you have heard it said don't murder but I say to you anyone who has anger... Has committed murder. If you follow the harder, extended version that Jesus taught, not to have any anger in your heart, you would also not commit murder as a byproduct. Does this principle apply in such a way that loving the lord your God and your neighbour as yourself perfectly would actually mean adhering to the law perfectly as well?
Finally you said that either all of it applies or none of it does so if you believe today that murder is a sin then you also believe that the entire law still applies. Is that correct?

 

[inquiring mind]

Thanks for a great post!
So a few questions. You said that Christ Dis away with the law when he died on the cross but in the Matthew passage he says that he expects these people to follow all of the law and teach others to do likewise until such time as heaven and earth pass away. Since heaven and earth have not passed away how do you reconcile those two positions?

As for the two summary commands upon which hang the law and the prophets do you agree that if you were to follow those two perfectly you would also by default follow the entire law perfectly as well? For instance you have heard it said don't murder but I say to you anyone who has anger... Has committed murder. If you follow the harder, extended version that Jesus taught, not to have any anger in your heart, you would also not commit murder as a byproduct. Does this principle apply in such a way that loving the lord your God and your neighbour as yourself perfectly would actually mean adhering to the law perfectly as well?
Finally you said that either all of it applies or none of it does so if you believe today that murder is a sin then you also believe that the entire law still applies. Is that correct?

Thanks for the complement, but I said very little myself… I only provided a “referenced quote” from a site that I do agree with. As for your first question, maybe following ‘all the law’ means following a ‘changing law’ as well. Likewise for your remaining questions, I would not question Christ’s building blocks as though only one supports the one above it.

 

[zippy2006]

He says it is not a salvation issue, you can still get into heaven, but he also makes it clear that he expects his audience to obey those OT laws.

Jesus says "it is not a salvation issue, you can still get to heaven"? So it's a Protestant bible study then, with a few extra verses thrown in?

We were talking about how to harmonize Paul and Jesus and we got to talking about obeying the ot law.
Our group was split with some saying that Jesus intended his injunction to follow all the ot laws for Jews only and others saying it should be read to apply to all believers (although not as a salvation issue)

It strikes me that the alleged friction between Jesus and Paul is not really related to the OT law but rather to the "NT law."

You are focusing heavily on Matthew 5:17-18, but I think that by reading the rest of the Sermon on the Mount we can see what Jesus meant. He is fulfilling the law, specifically with respect to anger, adultery, divorce, oaths, retaliation, love for enemies, almsgiving, prayer, fasting, etc. Jesus doesn't give any explicit indication that he is interested in the ceremonial laws, such as wearing garments sown of two fabrics (Leviticus 19:19). Jesus seems rather to be interested in the moral laws of the OT. Is that what you mean when you say "OT law"?

 

[miknik5]

Hey it's the atheist again asking a question that came up in my bible study group this week (yes it is a Christian bible study group).

We were talking about how to harmonize Paul and Jesus and we got to talking about obeying the ot law.
Our group was split with some saying that Jesus intended his injunction to follow all the ot laws for Jews only and others saying it should be read to apply to all believers (although not as a salvation issue)

What says you? What are your most compelling arguments for each interpretation and where do you come down?

Were there any who obeyed the OT Law?

 

[Athée]

Thanks for the complement, but I said very little myself… I only provided a “referenced quote” from a site that I do agree with. As for your first question, maybe following ‘all the law’ means following a ‘changing law’ as well. Likewise for your remaining questions, I would not question Christ’s building blocks as though only one supports the one above it.

It might help me if you answered the questions I asked in a different way because I am it sure I understand your response.
Apologies for not getting it :/

 

[Jim Langston]

Hey it's the atheist again asking a question that came up in my bible study group this week (yes it is a Christian bible study group).

We were talking about how to harmonize Paul and Jesus and we got to talking about obeying the ot law.
Our group was split with some saying that Jesus intended his injunction to follow all the ot laws for Jews only and others saying it should be read to apply to all believers (although not as a salvation issue)

What says you? What are your most compelling arguments for each interpretation and where do you come down?

Obeying the ten commandments is not works, it is reoentance. The law is what the Isrealites did to remove sin. Obeying the commandments is simply not sinning. That is how we are no longer under the law but must our neighbors as ourselves (ten commandments).

 

[dqhall]

Hey it's the atheist again asking a question that came up in my bible study group this week (yes it is a Christian bible study group).

We were talking about how to harmonize Paul and Jesus and we got to talking about obeying the ot law.
Our group was split with some saying that Jesus intended his injunction to follow all the ot laws for Jews only and others saying it should be read to apply to all believers (although not as a salvation issue)

What says you? What are your most compelling arguments for each interpretation and where do you come down?

Not all the Jews repented after hearing and seeing Jesus:

Matthew 11:20 Then he began to denounce the cities in which most of his mighty works had been done, because they didn't repent. 21"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon which were done in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23You, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, you will go down to Hades. For if the mighty works had been done in Sodom which were done in you, it would have remained until this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom, on the day of judgment, than for you." World English Bible - Public Domain

Paul was sent to the Gentiles. He did not require circumcision as a proof of faith, as it was only a change in outward appearance. Jesus did not require strict Sabbath observance. The chief priests opposed some of his Sabbath activities. As for OT teachings, one may find good and bad in them. Jesus opposed adultery and lust, yet did not demand stoning an adulteress (John 8:11). The law required her death, Jesus set her free.

 

[Athée]

Jesus says "it is not a salvation issue, you can still get to heaven"? So it's a Protestant bible study then, with a few extra verses thrown in?



It strikes me that the alleged friction between Jesus and Paul is not really related to the OT law but rather to the "NT law."

You are focusing heavily on Matthew 5:17-18, but I think that by reading the rest of the Sermon on the Mount we can see what Jesus meant. He is fulfilling the law, specifically with respect to anger, adultery, divorce, oaths, retaliation, love for enemies, almsgiving, prayer, fasting, etc. Jesus doesn't give any explicit indication that he is interested in the ceremonial laws, such as wearing garments sown of two fabrics (Leviticus 19:19). Jesus seems rather to be interested in the moral laws of the OT. Is that what you mean when you say "OT law"?

Yes they are protestants
You said Jesus doesn't seem to care about the minutae of the law but I disagree. In that verse he says it a jot or tittle will pass away and that he expects the audience to obey even the least of the commandments and teach others to do the same.
Thoughts?

 

[DingDing]

...
What says you? ...

So did not Jesus boil down all commandments to two? And does not Paul do the same?

 

[Athée]

Were there any who obeyed the OT Law?

Probably not but that is not the question. The questions is weather Christians today are supposed to try to follow the ot laws and to provide support for the various positions

 

[zippy2006]

Yes they are protestants
You said Jesus doesn't seem to care about the minutae of the law but I disagree. In that verse he says it a jot or tittle will pass away and that he expects the audience to obey even the least of the commandments and teach others to do the same.
Thoughts?

My thoughts are in my last post. The Sermon on the Mount is Jesus fleshing out what he means by Matthew 5:17-18, and there is no indication that he is interested in "minutae." There are other clear passages where Jesus seems to weight the importance of the law in favor of the moral precepts (e.g. Matthew 23:23, Matthew 19:16-19, Matthew 22:40).

 

[Athée]

Obeying the ten commandments is not works, it is reoentance. The law is what the Isrealites did to remove sin. Obeying the commandments is simply not sinning. That is how we are no longer under the law but must our neighbors as ourselves (ten commandments).

I'm not thinking of only the ten commandments (not that there is only one version of those in the Bible) but of the law. Is it sinful for you today to wear mixed fabrics which was one of the commands of God in the ot? Why or why not?

 

[Athée]

Not all the Jews repented after hearing and seeing Jesus:

Matthew 11:20 Then he began to denounce the cities in which most of his mighty works had been done, because they didn't repent. 21"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon which were done in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23You, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, you will go down to Hades. For if the mighty works had been done in Sodom which were done in you, it would have remained until this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom, on the day of judgment, than for you." World English Bible - Public Domain

Paul was sent to the Gentiles. He did not require circumcision as a proof of faith, as it was only a change in outward appearance. Jesus did not require strict Sabbath observance. The chief priests opposed some of his Sabbath activities. As for OT teachings, one may find good and bad in them. Jesus opposed adultery and lust, yet did not demand stoning an adulteress (John 8:11). The law required her death, Jesus set her free.

OK so you seem to be taking the position that Christians no longer need to follow the law. How do you make sense of the verses in Matthew where Jesus's says he expects them all to be followed until heaven and earth pass away?

 

[Athée]

So did not Jesus boil down all commandments to two? And does not Paul do the same?

He also said he expected his audience in Matthew to obey all the law and to teach others to do the same until heaven and earth pass away. By perfectly obeying the two summary commands it seems that you would be also obeying all the law as well.
But more importantly does this apply to you today? Why or why not?

 

[Athée]

My thoughts are in my last post. The Sermon on the Mount is Jesus fleshing out what he means by Matthew 5:17-18, and there is no indication that he is interested in "minutae." There are other clear passages where Jesus seems to weight the importance of the law in favor of the moral precepts (e.g. Matthew 23:23, Matthew 19:16-19, Matthew 22:40).

So when Jesus's says not a jot or tittle shall pass away and that he expects his audience to obey even the least of the laws and to teach others to do likewise what does he mean? And does it apply to you today or not?

 

[DingDing]

So did not Jesus boil down all commandments to two? And does not Paul do the same?

... By perfectly obeying the two summary commands it seems that you would be also obeying all the law as well.
But more importantly does this apply to you today? Why or why not?

Are you a Jew living under the Old Covenant? There are two commandments that are lifted above all others. Do you understand why?

 

[redleghunter]

Yes we agreed that no one other than Jesus (allegedly from my perspective but that is not at issue here) did this perfectly. But that isn't the question. In the verse about fulfilling the law Jesus said that it specifically didn't mean putting the law aside, he specifically said to that audience that they should follow all the ot laws and teach others to do likewise. Does his command on this subject apply to you today? Why or why not?

More specifically this is what Jesus taught to teach:

Matthew 5: KJV

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus clearly states until fulfilled. So which of the law and prophets have not been fulfilled.

Jesus fulfilled all the ceremonial sacrifices for sin and peace offerings. He also fulfilled the majority of the Messianic prophecies with some yet to be fulfilled in the second Advent.

Jesus also said that anything we eat does not make us unclean but what comes out of us (Mark 7:15), and this is confirmed post Resurrection and Ascension with Peter's vision (Acts 10). Christ's focus was on the spiritual and internal cleanliness of the person in His teachings. We see this in the Pharisee and Publican parable (Luke 18).

It seems to me the issue of the sin offerings and purity of diet laws were addressed in His perfect sacrifice.

Jesus also stopped a mob from rightfully, by Mosiac law, stoning an adulterer. Thus making it clear the old covenant theocracy had come to an end and Jesus as King of the Kingdom of God is judge. So that capital power was taken away.

Therefore, we can eliminate the theocratic laws, the dietary laws, and ceremonial laws which surrounded the daily sacrifice for sins. Jesus embodied and fulfilled them all.

What's left for both Jew and Gentile? The moral laws which existed before Sinai. The Decalogue being the summary of them. As we see Jesus addresses here:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."— Matthew 22:35-40.

Now flip back to Exodus 20. The first [Edit] four commandments deal with the First and greatest commandment---Mankind's relationship with God. The remainder deals with the Second commandment---mankind's relationship with each other.

Matthew 22:35-40 was in effect since Eden. Well before Sinai. We already know from Genesis that idolatry, murder, adultery, theft, dishonor against parents was forbidden and dealt with in various ways.