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Understanding Evolution [moved from P&LS]

Subduction Zone

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What science do I deny that says I can't use a computer?

That's easy. We don't even need science. We need logic. You abuse logic, you don't live by it. Since computer's are logic based your false logic means that you should only use computers based upon faulty logic.

And in fact, it's the other way around.

Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?

I hold the science of computing up to a Higher Standard that you, in your current state (atheism), wouldn't dare go.

Now that is clearly false. You are now merely abusing the Bible. Adding open blasphemy by mistranslating the Bible does not do your case any goo at all.
 
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AV1611VET

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That's easy. We don't even need science. We need logic.
I'll assume I'm not denying science then.
Subduction Zone said:
Now that is clearly false. You are now merely abusing the Bible. Adding open blasphemy by mistranslating the Bible does not do your case any good at all.
Do you, by any chance, have a Defender's Study Bible?

(I didn't think so.)
 
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Speedwell

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I'll assume I'm not denying science then.Do you, by any chance, have a Defender's Study Bible?

(I didn't think so.)
Even more of a travesty of scripture than Scofield's.
 
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Heissonear

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Once one arrives at how nature works scientifically, through geology, paleontology, biology, genetics, biochemistry, there is SERIOUSLY more to learn.

When one FINALLY grasps the science of how nature works and how natural processes explains all that we see happening around us and of the past, there is SERIOUSLY more to learn. A person has not ARRIVED! They have a need to be open to learn more. The level of knowledge they have attained leaves them short of far greater things to learn.

If a person stops learning and become closed minded to what God brings to one's understanding through His Holy Spirit, they have a false sense of arriving in what needs to be known. They ignore what God has to reveal and teach. They set aside the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that awakens one to Him on High, and a dynamic relationship as the Heavens Open and He starts writing His Word on the tablets of their heart. The Word, the Scriptures, made near through the inner work of the Holy Spirit.

Being Born Again by the Holy Spirit means nothing to those who think they have "ARRIVED" through learning of nature and natural processes around them. Just read the posts of this thread.

There was a point when I was a godless geologist, having no need for a God to explain why thing happen around me, and of the history of the earth. The wealth of natural science I had attained was a sufficient foundation to know how and why things have happened in the past and present. But at that point I became open. Open to if that is all there is. Have I attained or do I still have more to learn I am ignorant of. By opening myself to "if you are then who are You and what do I further need to know"?

Having been a godless geologist, one who only understood evolution as how live evolved, becoming open to Life from One who is exceedingly above the natural produced by His Doing an awaking beyond anything I could have imagined. So far beyond what our natural abilities and use of scientific method could ever bring to me.

In most of these posts people have brushed to the side "God at work in us through His Spirit". They do so by lacking more learning. Having reckoned they have arrived in the major items needed to be known, they brush aside what they know not is far greater than they could imagine. They fail to grasp as John 3:3 says, "unless one is born again they cannot see the Kingdom of God". They miss seeing the Heavens Open, and walking with Him who is Holy and on High.

I know of one poster who has his finger epoxied to the equal button, summarizing all presented as one "already arrived" naturalistic understanding position. Not open to what still escapes him by lack of being open to Him on High, seeking wholeheartedly if He be, and what else should be known.
 
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Subduction Zone

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I'll assume I'm not denying science then.

That would be a poor assumption on your part.

Do you, by any chance, have a Defender's Study Bible?

(I didn't think so.)

Why waste money on nonsense like that?
 
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KWCrazy

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I....have both the scientific sense and the literary sophistication to (1) accept evolution;
So you deny the Fourth Commandment.
You deny that God created Adam.
You deny that Adam's sin brought sin and death to the world.
You deny the genealogies of the Bible.
You deny that the Great Flood happened and believe that Jesus didn't know what he was taking about when He said it happened.
You deny the fallen nature of man, the consequence of man's sin, the condemnation of God for man's rebellion and the authority of God's word.

Why, then, did Jesus come into the world, suffer and die, then rise again? Kind of sounds like He should have talked to you first, right?

and (2) recognize the use of non-literal imagery in the Bible.
So far as I know, there is not a single Hebrew scholar who would agree with you. I know I don't, and because you can't produce a single passage of Scripture to support what you claim, the Scriptures don't either. How do you justify your belief in evolution and the utter rejection of most of the doctrine of Christianity? You DO realize that God seems to think He created the Heavens and the earth in six days, right?
 
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Subduction Zone

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So you deny the Fourth Commandment.


Which "Fourth Commandment"? The Commandments vary in numbering based upon one's faith.

You deny that God created Adam.

That would be something called "facing reality".

You deny that Adam's sin brought sin and death to the world.

Since that is a story that makes the God of Genesis to be rather incompetent it would be blasphemous not to deny it.

You deny the genealogies of the Bible.

Pretty much fake. Look how the two genealogies of even Jesus vary.


You deny that the Great Flood happened and believe that Jesus didn't know what he was taking about when He said it happened.


Whoa! Jesus never said that. He merely made a clearly poetic allusion. And it is clear that there never was a "Great Flood". Any honest person can see that that requires a lying God if investigated.

You deny the fallen nature of man, the consequence of man's sin, the condemnation of God for man's rebellion and the authority of God's word.

That would be a stretch on your part. Perhaps man is merely naturally "fallen". Remember, the Genesis story makes God look evil and incompetent. He blames others for his errors in that story.

Why, then, did Jesus come into the world, suffer and die, then rise again? Kind of sounds like He should have talked to you first, right?

Perhaps to give a message to man on how to behave properly and why. Just a suggestion.

So far as I know, there is not a single Hebrew scholar who would agree with you. I know I don't, and because you can't produce a single passage of Scripture to support what you claim, the Scriptures don't either. How do you justify your belief in evolution and the utter rejection of most of the doctrine of Christianity? You DO realize that God seems to think He created the Heavens and the earth in six days, right?

Then you know very few Hebrew scholars. Most Jews know that the flood story is a myth. That Exodus never happened as portrayed in the Bible. And you can't find better Hebrew scholars than those that have to speak it as part of their religion.
 
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KWCrazy

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Which version? Keep holy the Sabbath? Or Honor thy father and mother?
Exodus 20: 8-11 Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Exodus 20: 8-11 Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

One does not need to believe the fictional part of those verses to
keep the Sabbath. By the way do you keep the Sabbath? What day do you go to church?
 
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AV1611VET

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By the way do you keep the Sabbath? What day do you go to church?
I like the lines:

To our grandparents, it was the Holy Sabbath.
To our parents, it was Sunday.
To us, it's the weekend.

Moral entropy (gradualism) in action.
 
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Subduction Zone

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I like the lines:

To our grandparents, it was the Holy Sabbath.
To our parents, it was Sunday.
To us, it's the weekend.

Moral entropy (gradualism) in action.

You have it backwards. It is moral evolution if anything. Going from an immoral mindless following of writings of man to enjoying life.
 
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AV1611VET

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You have it backwards. It is moral evolution if anything. Going from an immoral mindless following of writings of man to enjoying life.
Your grandparents didn't enjoy life?

If they did, was it inclusive with the "Holy Sabbath"?
 
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Dave RP

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Hi dave,

You responded to me:


I do appreciate and understand that. However, something sounding ludicrous to someone, while I'd certainly say whatever it is deserves more careful looking into, doesn't have any bearing on the truth. As I have pointed out, and yes, I know that you aren't going to agree because of the source material, but God's word has already warned me that the things of God are foolishness to those who are perishing. So, hopefully you can also appreciate and understand my position.

As I explained to others previously, I was once much like you, although I've always made a claim to 'be' a christian, I wasn't born again and, therefore, did not have access to the one who convicts an individual of the truth. I believed that mankind evolved and likely pretty much the way science explains to us that man has. But then I was born again. My entire worldview changed. My understanding of God and who He is and what He has done and His purpose in creating this realm all changed.

So, I understand what it's like to not believe the truth of the Scriptures. I also understand that, according to Jesus, most people aren't ever going to understand the things of God aright. I understand that because I believe that Jesus is the Son of the living God and that he came to us for the purpose of giving testimony to who God, his Father, is. As a part of that testimony he spoke of there being only two paths that each individual can take through this life. One is broad and many take that way. They live the life that their Creator has given them and they squander it just as the parable of the wayward son explains that he did. Oh, they don't know that they're squandering it. Just as the wayward son, they are living good in the neighborhood. Got good jobs and make good money and are honestly pretty satisfied with their lives on the whole. Have some friends and begin a family and are satisfied with these things. They aren't wicked, mean, spiteful people at all. They're just people living life. Enjoying all that life has to offer them.

The other way is narrow, and according to Jesus, few there be that find it. It is a life of love and adoration and understanding of what really matters in this life. Understanding that a loving Creator made all of this and desires to know each one of us and live with us for all eternity. Understanding that it is because He exists that we exist. That this existence didn't come about by a bunch of possible connections of the natural properties of the elements of this realm. They understand that this realm exists because of the careful planning and detail of one who created it all and will someday call each one of us to account.

For the first group of people. Well, they just go on living their lives and enjoying the bounty of the earth until one day... They don't even have a clue that such a day is coming. Most of them consider themselves to be biological entities which upon death cease to exist forever and that will be the end of it. But the Scriptures detail a very different future for all mankind. That all men will be raised up from death and face the judgment of their Creator. They will then be rewarded with an eternal existence commiserate with what they worked for in this life.

For me, this wake up call from God came about when I began to investigate the many prophecies of the Scriptures. Unlike some who find that they were not always precisely fulfilled, I found the opposite. I found that not only were they fulfilled pretty much exactly as the Scriptures foretold that they would be, but that some of them were most amazing in the amount of time that passed between the giving of the prophecy and the fulfilling of the prophecy that absolutely convinced me that there is a God and He does know the end from the beginning.

Specifically the prophecy found in the writings of Daniel chapter 9. For me, that prophecy is amazing in it's detail and in the fact that Daniel had no idea that any of the things foretold would ever come to pass. He didn't even know that there would be the event that started the clock ticking on the prophecy. It was yet another 50-100 years before the decree would be issued to rebuild and restore Jerusalem. Friend, that would be like you being told in 1940 that in 2017 a man by the name of Donald Trump would be elected President of the United States. Then, from the starting of that ticking clock, Daniel was given insight into a very specific period of time in which a couple of things would happen. The entire fulfillment of that prophecy was to take several hundred years, but precisely as everything was laid out to Daniel, everything came to be. For me, no man has that ability of prophecy. Only a God who loves what He has created would be able to tell the times of unfolding events so precisely and of things that are so important to what man needs to understand about this life that we have been given to live.
For me, only a Creator who made all things to be and cares about mankind that He has made, would be able to tell someone so accurately of unfolding events in the future.

From there, I was on my knees beseeching God to forgive me, just as the prodigal son pleaded to his father to forgive him for squandering away the precious life that he had been given. Asking Him to take me in. I then spent a number of hours in prayer over the next few weeks and months continually asking that God would give me wisdom and discernment of the truth through His Holy Spirit. The one who Jesus promised would lead those who were born again into all truth. God has answered that prayer.

Now, I fully understand that you don't believe that or agree with my source of truth. All I can tell you is that such a position is not unexpected and is, according to the Scriptures, the default position of mankind overall. But it doesn't have to be.

When God gave unto Israel the law, He said to them, "Heaven and earth are witnesses to you that I have set before you this day the way of life and the way of death...choose life! God has done the same thing for each of us. He has set forth, through His Scriptures, the way of life and the way of death. Each one is free to choose which way he wants to go.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

As you correctly say Ted, I don't believe a word of it. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. I'll only ever find out if I was wrong, because when I'm dead that's it according to what I believe, but if i'm wrong it's eternal torment for me. My only small consolation will be that i'll be eternally tormented alongside all my family and friends, and some great people - Einstein, Gandhi, David Lloyd George, Churchill, David Attenbrough to name but some. To my way of thinking, the idea that god created this entire universe of billions of stars and planets and it existed for billions of years before humans came along, just so he could judge a few humans and have them in this bizarre place of everlasting life is ludicrous in the extreme. However, that's your faith and good luck to you.
 
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Dave RP

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Hi expos,

You answer your question to me as such:


You understand me correctly in those matters. The difference, though, is that I can see and reproduce and test the total outcome of those things. I can take two vehicles and set them up for an 'accident' and put one occupant belted and another not belted and physically see that the premise is correct that seat belts save lives. I can run that test every day for months and see the same outcome repeated over and over and over again. Based on such repetitive testing I can adopt the conclusion that seat belts save lives.

However, I can also tell you that if God so chooses to get involved in the outcome of such an accident, all bets are off as to what will happen to the occupants of the vehicles involved. The God I know, if He so chooses, can allow two vehicles to come together in a head on crash where both vehicles are traveling at 120 mph and both occupants walk away without a scratch. The God I know can allow the accident to happen and both occupants die and then raise either one or both back to life again.

So, the problem for me, with allowing science to tell me about things that they cannot observe happening, but can only make judgments about such things happening by extrapolating information that we know to be true today and likely have been true for a very, very long time; that they can only 'prove' by looking at little pieces of the puzzle and then making grandiose claims that these little pieces that we know to be true today explain the event, is that they all depend on the natural properties of things working as we know them to work. But, God has, as I mentioned above, shown evidence that when He gets involved in doing something upon the earth, the 'rule' of the natural properties of things that we know, goes out the window.

The greatest example of this is the birth of my Lord and Savior, Jesus. The Scriptures tell me that he was born of a virgin. Some 2,000 years ago before man even knew about invitro fertilization and such things, a woman who claims of herself to having never laid with a man, is pregnant. Now, friend, science will tell you that's impossible. Yet, I believe that it happened just as the Scriptures tell me. Why? Because God did it!! God's word explains to us that through His Holy Spirit He implanted in Mary's womb what was necessary for Jesus to be born. She didn't have sexual relations with anyone. She merely woke up one day and she was pregnant. By all of your scientific knowledge and wisdom, that's impossible.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

Ted, it is perfectly possible that the scriptures say that Jesus was born of a virgin because that's what prophesy required, apart form the scriptures, written long after the event, there can be no evidence of virgin birth, hence I will say it was a hoax. Similarly, wasn't Jesus supposed to be of "Davids line"? Well as I understand the Bible, Joseph was of Davids line and given he wasn't the father (According to scripture) ten Jesus wasn't of Davids line and that part of the prophesy was not foretold.
 
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JCFantasy23

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MOD HAT ON

This Thread Has Been Moved to Creation and Evolution

full


We are moving this thread to a section where it is a better fit.

Please continue the discussion here, thank you.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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miamited

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Hi dave,

You responded to me:
As you correctly say Ted, I don't believe a word of it. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. I'll only ever find out if I was wrong, because when I'm dead that's it according to what I believe, but if i'm wrong it's eternal torment for me. My only small consolation will be that i'll be eternally tormented alongside all my family and friends, and some great people - Einstein, Gandhi, David Lloyd George, Churchill, David Attenbrough to name but some. To my way of thinking, the idea that god created this entire universe of billions of stars and planets and it existed for billions of years before humans came along, just so he could judge a few humans and have them in this bizarre place of everlasting life is ludicrous in the extreme. However, that's your faith and good luck to you.

Ted, it is perfectly possible that the scriptures say that Jesus was born of a virgin because that's what prophesy required, apart form the scriptures, written long after the event, there can be no evidence of virgin birth, hence I will say it was a hoax. Similarly, wasn't Jesus supposed to be of "Davids line"? Well as I understand the Bible, Joseph was of Davids line and given he wasn't the father (According to scripture) ten Jesus wasn't of Davids line and that part of the prophesy was not foretold.

Right! Like I said, I can understand your position because I was once like you. We are all born lost to God. We must be reborn to be a child of God. Only those born of the Spirit of God have the right to be called children of God.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
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miamited

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One does not need to believe the fictional part of those verses to
keep the Sabbath. By the way do you keep the Sabbath? What day do you go to church?

Hi SZ,

There again, you show such little understanding of what God has said through His Scriptures. Observing the Sabbath is not about 'going to church'. The Sabbath is a day of rest. We can go to 'church' seven days a week and we will not have honored the law of Sabbath.

The Sabbath for man is a day of rest. The Sabbath for the ground is a year of rest.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
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AV1611VET

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... there can be no evidence of virgin birth,
That's because science is myopic.

If you disagree, what evidence would you look for exactly?
 
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Ophiolite

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Hi SZ,

There again, you show such little understanding of what God has said through His Scriptures. Observing the Sabbath is not about 'going to church'. The Sabbath is a day of rest. We can go to 'church' seven days a week and we will not have honored the law of Sabbath.

The Sabbath for man is a day of rest. The Sabbath for the ground is a year of rest.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
I think he wanted to know which day of the week you considered to be the Sabbath.
 
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