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Big Contradictions?

Speedwell

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I sometimes think that some people find it hard to understand evolution because the principle underlying it is so simple, and they're expecting something complicated.
There are some other factors. First, the subject is badly taught in high schools. Second, there is a flood of misinformation about the theory coming from creationists "ministries" like ICR, AiG and CRI. Lastly, it is hard to overestimate the importance of a literal Genesis to many people of faith. Their religious and cultural identities are tightly bound to it.
 
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JackRT

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There is a factor called "entropy" in physics, indicating that the whole universe of matter is running down, and ultimately will reduce itself to uniform chaos. This follows from the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which seems about as basic and unquestionable to modern scientific minds as any truth can be. At the same time that this is happening on the physical level of existence, something quite different seems to be happening on the biological level: structure and species are becoming more complex, more sophisticated, more organized, with higher degrees of performance and consciousness.

This statement, above, was made by Sydney Harris, an evolutionist.

If you would like to argue that this only applies to closed systems, the following should put that to rest.

...there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. ...there is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium phenomena the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself.

It is not an error.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics

Everything is running down and going to pieces. ----- Well, that is a rather simple way of describing it. A better definition would be "in a closed system, entropy (a measure of disorder) will on average constantly increase" Since this is a statistical law, two terms are vitally important ---‘closed system’ and ‘on average’.

***”closed system” means that there is no net influx of energy from outside the system. So far as we know the universe as a whole seems to be a closed system with the result that it will eventually wind down and suffer a heat death. However the planet earth is not a closed system. It receives a net influx of energy from the sun and it is this that allows entropy to decrease and makes evolution possible.

***”on average” means that while entropy in a closed system may be increasing on the whole, there may be localized parts of that system where entropy is actually decreasing. Think of the universe as the system and the earth as such a localized part.

***being statistical laws also means that thermodynamics does not govern the behavior of every single bit of matter at a microscopic level but rather the behavior of collections of matter at the macroscopic level. To say that the class average in the last test was 48% does not mean that every student got that mark or even that the majority of students failed. It is in fact entirely possible that some students bucked the trend and wrote perfect papers.

When one lacks an understanding of science and/or allows oneself to be deluded by charlatans then it is easy to understand that very fundamental mistakes can be made.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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There are some other factors. First, the subject is badly taught in high schools. Second, there is a flood of misinformation about the theory coming from creationists "ministries" like ICR, AiG and CRI. Lastly, it is hard to overestimate the importance of a literal Genesis to many people of faith. Their religious and cultural identities are tightly bound to it.
Yes, that's true; but someone with an IQ of 120 should have no trouble grasping the principle in the abstract - or, for example, how it is used in industrial design, even if they wish to deny that applies to living things.

In fact, I think the artificial distinction between micro and macro evolution was introduced because of the difficulty of denying that a population that reproduces with heritable variation, and is subject to variation-dependent selection, must inevitably evolve. And despite the inevitable logic of an accumulation of minor changes producing major changes, it's easier to make a superficially plausible argument-from-incredulity when the timescales involved mean the full transition from minor to major is inferred rather than observed.

To reinvent 'Ev'ry Time We Say Goodbye',

"...There's no theory sager,
but how strange the change from minor to major,
Everytime we say evolution..."​
 
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bhsmte

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I sometimes think that some people find it hard to understand evolution because the principle underlying it is so simple, and they're expecting something complicated.

With many, it is psychological, IMO. Evolution is a serious threat to their personal beliefs, so they have basic defense mechanisms that are engaged, to protect their belief. I call this; ideology, taking priority over well evidenced reality.
 
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JackRT

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Yes, that's true; but someone with an IQ of 120 should have no trouble grasping the principle in the abstract - or, for example, how it is used in industrial design, even if they wish to deny that applies to living things.

In fact, I think the artificial distinction between micro and macro evolution was introduced because of the difficulty of denying that a population that reproduces with heritable variation, and is subject to variation-dependent selection, must inevitably evolve. And despite the inevitable logic of an accumulation of minor changes producing major changes, it's easier to make a superficially plausible argument-from-incredulity when the timescales involved mean the full transition from minor to major is inferred rather than observed.

To reinvent 'Ev'ry Time We Say Goodbye',

"...There's no theory sager,
but how strange the change from minor to major,
Everytime we say evolution..."​

Cognitive dissonance is defined as "an uncomfortable mental state resulting from conflicting cognitions; usually resolved by changing some of the cognitions". A good number of the young earth creationists here seem to suffer from this condition.

Let me attempt to explain. The Christian young earth creationist (YEC) almost always holds that the bible must be understood literally and inerrantly. Based on biblical events and genealogies most YECs believe that the earth was created less than 10,000 years ago. Some will go so far as to claim that it is approximately just 6000 years old. This is based on calculations by Bishop James Ussher (1581-1656) who concluded that:

* the first day of creation was Sunday October 23 4004 BC

* Adam and Eve were driven from Eden on Monday November 10 4004 BC

* the Ark touched down on Mt Ararat on Wednesday May 5 2348 BC

In 1887 Sir John Lightfoot claimed that Adam was created on October 23 4004 BC at 9:00 AM.

On the other hand science in its many disciplines and on the basis of massive evidence claims that:

* the universe was formed by the Big Bang about 13,500,000,000 years ago

* the earth was formed about 4,000,000,000 years ago

* anatomically modern human beings date to about 200,000 years ago

The YEC of course rejects these scientific conclusions in favour of the biblical time line. The odd thing about this rejection is that the YEC will frequently accept other scientific theories and conclusions that do not challenge their biblical understandings.

I am personally convinced that at some level in their psyche most YECs are terribly afraid that science is actually correct and that the bible is wrong. This then is the basis of their cognitive dissonance.

On the other hand, there are a great many Christians like myself who can accept both the findings of science and the bible. There is no conflict in our minds because we realize that the problem is not with the bible itself but in how the bible is interpreted. We can accept that sometimes that the bible is not to be understood literally but expresses itself in allegorically or mythologically.

Some will immediately object that a mythology, being a fiction, is an untruth. The key here is not to ask "Is this story true?" but to ask rather "Does this story work?" Even if one accepts science in general and the theory of evolution in particular, Genesis still works as an allegory of the human condition.
 
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bhsmte

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Cognitive dissonance is defined as "an uncomfortable mental state resulting from conflicting cognitions; usually resolved by changing some of the cognitions". A good number of the young earth creationists here seem to suffer from this condition.

Let me attempt to explain. The Christian young earth creationist (YEC) almost always holds that the bible must be understood literally and inerrantly. Based on biblical events and genealogies most YECs believe that the earth was created less than 10,000 years ago. Some will go so far as to claim that it is approximately just 6000 years old. This is based on calculations by Bishop James Ussher (1581-1656) who concluded that:

* the first day of creation was Sunday October 23 4004 BC

* Adam and Eve were driven from Eden on Monday November 10 4004 BC

* the Ark touched down on Mt Ararat on Wednesday May 5 2348 BC

In 1887 Sir John Lightfoot claimed that Adam was created on October 23 4004 BC at 9:00 AM.

On the other hand science in its many disciplines and on the basis of massive evidence claims that:

* the universe was formed by the Big Bang about 13,500,000,000 years ago

* the earth was formed about 4,000,000,000 years ago

* anatomically modern human beings date to about 200,000 years ago

The YEC of course rejects these scientific conclusions in favour of the biblical time line. The odd thing about this rejection is that the YEC will frequently accept other scientific theories and conclusions that do not challenge their biblical understandings.

I am personally convinced that at some level in their psyche most YECs are terribly afraid that science is actually correct and that the bible is wrong. This then is the basis of their cognitive dissonance.

On the other hand, there are a great many Christians like myself who can accept both the findings of science and the bible. There is no conflict in our minds because we realize that the problem is not with the bible itself but in how the bible is interpreted. We can accept that sometimes that the bible is not to be understood literally but expresses itself in allegorically or mythologically.

Some will immediately object that a mythology, being a fiction, is an untruth. The key here is not to ask "Is this story true?" but to ask rather "Does this story work?" Even if one accepts science in general and the theory of evolution in particular, Genesis still works as an allegory of the human condition.

You could teach a course on the behavior that typically comes from cognitive dissonance by observing many posters on this site.
 
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JacksBratt

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It is not an error.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics

Everything is running down and going to pieces. ----- Well, that is a rather simple way of describing it. A better definition would be "in a closed system, entropy (a measure of disorder) will on average constantly increase" Since this is a statistical law, two terms are vitally important ---‘closed system’ and ‘on average’.

***”closed system” means that there is no net influx of energy from outside the system. So far as we know the universe as a whole seems to be a closed system with the result that it will eventually wind down and suffer a heat death. However the planet earth is not a closed system. It receives a net influx of energy from the sun and it is this that allows entropy to decrease and makes evolution possible.

***”on average” means that while entropy in a closed system may be increasing on the whole, there may be localized parts of that system where entropy is actually decreasing. Think of the universe as the system and the earth as such a localized part.

***being statistical laws also means that thermodynamics does not govern the behavior of every single bit of matter at a microscopic level but rather the behavior of collections of matter at the macroscopic level. To say that the class average in the last test was 48% does not mean that every student got that mark or even that the majority of students failed. It is in fact entirely possible that some students bucked the trend and wrote perfect papers.

When one lacks an understanding of science and/or allows oneself to be deluded by charlatans then it is easy to understand that very fundamental mistakes can be made.
The mistake is for men and women, who are bathed in the academia of this world of man's wisdom, who proclaim to be followers of Christ, to object to the fact that God told us how He did it, when He did it, why He did it and what happened afterward.

To accept the "wisdom" of man over the truth of the words of God, is a grave error.

All will be revealed, all that is hidden will be seen.... I am 100% certain that the Bible will stand firm and true.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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There are some other factors. First, the subject is badly taught in high schools.

Any substantive information that I've read is way beyond high school level, more like post grad studies. Simplistic illustrations promote more questions than answers. This is a subject for mature people with above average intelligence, with an interest in science.
 
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JackRT

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The mistake is for men and women, who are bathed in the academia of this world of man's wisdom, who proclaim to be followers of Christ, to object to the fact that God told us how He did it, when He did it, why He did it and what happened afterward.

To accept the "wisdom" of man over the truth of the words of God, is a grave error.

All will be revealed, all that is hidden will be seen.... I am 100% certain that the Bible will stand firm and true.

If you are referring to the bible, that was entirely written by men and possibly one woman too. What they wrote reflected their sincere beliefs and the collective wisdom of their cultural heritage.
 
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JacksBratt

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If you are referring to the bible, that was entirely written by men and possibly one woman too. What they wrote reflected their sincere beliefs and the collective wisdom of their cultural heritage.
Then, I guess, this whole idea of a man/God dying on the cross, for our sins, so that we have the blessed hope of eternal life.................just a bunch of stories written by men and women.

Might as well believe that Jason Borne was real, Spider man, Super man and Indiana Jones....

We can all go home now.
 
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JackRT

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Then, I guess, this whole idea of a man/God dying on the cross, for our sins, so that we have the blessed hope of eternal life.................just a bunch of stories written by men and women.

Might as well believe that Jason Borne was real, Spider man, Super man and Indiana Jones....

We can all go home now.

You are correct that I do have a different understanding of Jesus and scripture but that is entire other issue that is well off topic. Suffice it to say that I do not believe in fairy tales or superheroes.
 
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Speedwell

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Then, I guess, this whole idea of a man/God dying on the cross, for our sins, so that we have the blessed hope of eternal life.................just a bunch of stories written by men and women.

Might as well believe that Jason Borne was real, Spider man, Super man and Indiana Jones....

We can all go home now.
You may, because you have tied your faith in Christ and your salvation to a particular interpretation of scripture. The rest of us don't have to; we can sustain our faith without it.
 
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JacksBratt

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You may, because you have tied your faith in Christ and your salvation to a particular interpretation of scripture. The rest of us don't have to; we can sustain our faith without it.
If the Bible is just a story. Where do get your faith from? What is the source of your knowledge of your savior? How do you know the truth about eternal life and how to achieve it?
 
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bhsmte

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If the Bible is just a story. Where do get your faith from? What is the source of your knowledge of your savior? How do you know the truth about eternal life and how to achieve it?

Faith is needed because it is theological story, without objective evidence to support it and requiring faith. If there were reliable facts to show the story was factually true, one wouldn't need faith.
 
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Speedwell

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If the Bible is just a story.
A lot of assumptions for such a short sentence. But I never said anything about the Bible being "just a story." If you think that is the alternative to your beliefs about the Bible, it's the most egregious assumption of them all.

Where do get your faith from? What is the source of your knowledge of your savior? How do you know the truth about eternal life and how to achieve it?
From Apostolic Witness as corroborated by the Bible, just like the rest of the 95% of almost two billion Christians in the world who aren't literalist Protestants.
 
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JacksBratt

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You may, because you have tied your faith in Christ and your salvation to a particular interpretation of scripture. The rest of us don't have to; we can sustain our faith without it.
First of all, my response was to JackRT who posted:
JackRT said:

If you are referring to the bible, that was entirely written by men and possibly one woman too. What they wrote reflected their sincere beliefs and the collective wisdom of their cultural heritage.

So, my take on this is.... if the Bible is just sincere beliefs and collective wisdom of men and women.....what makes it worth accepting as true in any way shape or form?


If it is not the true, God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired word of God, written by men and a woman, who were totally inspired by the Holy Spirit, how we say that it is...

given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If it is just the beliefs of men and women, then it is no different that any other book, essay or historical writing. Our respect for it is unfounded. We have no other source of the knowledge of our creator and savior. In fact, why would we even trust that we have a creator and savior?


1 Corinthians 15:14-17King James Version (KJV)
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

On the solid rock I stand, All other ground is sinking sand.

John 1:1-7King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14King James Version (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
If this is just the belief of some man or some woman, what do I have to stand on as a solid rock?


If you take the Bible and reduce it to just the whims of humans......... You have nothing to base your faith on. You are lost. You have no argument. You have no salvation.

 
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JacksBratt

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Faith is needed because it is theological story, without objective evidence to support it and requiring faith. If there were reliable facts to show the story was factually true, one wouldn't need faith.
I understand what you are saying. Fact is, I base my faith on a book, called the Bible, that I believe is the words of our Creator and God, given to us, so that we can have hope and understand Him. I believe it is not the beliefs and collective wisdom of mere men and women. That is the point I was trying to convey.

By the way...........how are you still a "newbie"
 
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bhsmte

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I understand what you are saying. Fact is, I base my faith on a book, called the Bible, that I believe is the words of our Creator and God, given to us, so that we can have hope and understand Him. I believe it is not the beliefs and collective wisdom of mere men and women. That is the point I was trying to convey.

By the way...........how are you still a "newbie"

No idea why it says I am a newbie.
 
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JacksBratt

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You are correct that I do have a different understanding of Jesus and scripture but that is entire other issue that is well off topic. Suffice it to say that I do not believe in fairy tales or superheroes.
You don't believe in fairy tales and superheroes, yet, you believe the Bible to be nothing more than that?

Suffice to say that fairy tales and Superheroes are written with the direct intention of being fiction but the mere beliefs and collective wisdom of men and women is about as useful as such.

Unless it is substantiated with facts and evidence to prove their claims.

I have no faith in the words of men unless they do have something to back it.
While I hold the Bible to be much more than this. I hold it to be the living word of God.
 
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