Why the Catholic Church changes the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday

[Meowzltov]

God says Love is "defined" by keeping His Commandments

Right. So keep the commandments that were given TO YOU, a Gentile. Anything more than that is extra, and God bless you. Sabbath is extra since it was given to Israel.

Your only way to make Sabbath obligatory is to argue that there is something innately unloving towards God about breaking Sabbath, and there is not.

 

[Meowzltov]

On the other hand, Catholics can and do make images place them in church - bow down before them and promise to serve those they represent - without hating God.

The prohibition is a part of the commandment to have no other gods. In other words the "graven image" MUST be understood in the context that it is an idol. A dollie that drinks and wets itself doesn't break any commandment I'm sure you will agree even though it is technically a graven image. We even have examples of religious graven images in the Bible such as the Cherubim atop the Ark of the Covenant that God commanded.

The statues in Catholic churches are not idols -- the are not images of deities. Rather they are representational images of Christians whom we ask for prayers and who we honor for their lives of purity. There is no confusion whatsoever -- these are human beings and not gods. Therefore they do not violate the commandment.

 

[BobRyan]

The prohibition is a part of the commandment to have no other gods. In other words the "graven image" MUST be understood in the context that it is an idol. .

when we talk to the Hindus they assure us - that they are not praying to the metal or the plastic of the image - but the one whom it represents.

 

[BobRyan]

Right. So keep the commandments that were given TO YOU, a Gentile. .

Your own church says that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are applicable to Gentiles. (Including the Sabbath Commandment)

Did we not cover that point already?


CCC - Catholic Church Catechism
The obligation of the Decalogue

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. The Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God:"
and how do we "show" love for God?
1 John 5:2-3 answers that question


Dies Domini pt 13 -

"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

CCC -- Catholic Catechism

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.


2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.


2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26


2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; 28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29


(Application in James 2)

2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================

and still another Catholic document


======================================
Convert's Catechism
Full text of "The convert's catechism of Catholic doctrine"

3. The Third Commandment.

Q. What is the Third Commandment?

A. The Third Commandment is: Remember

that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

---------------------------50

Q. Which is the Sabbath day ?

A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Satur-
day ?

A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday be-
cause the Catholic Church, in the Council of
Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity
from Saturday to Sunday.

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute
Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Satur-
day, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sun-
day, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apos-
tles on a Sunday.

Q. By what authority did the Church substitute
Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Satur-
day by the plenitude of that divine power which
Jesus Christ bestowed upon her.

Q. What does the Third Commandment com-
mand?

A. The Third Commandment commands us to
sanctify Sunday as the Lord's Day.

--------------------------===================================================



Indeed - Acts 20 says that a one-time event happened on week-day-1 (again not calling it "the Lord's Day" so as not to confuse the reader). The "excuse"/reason given for this one-time event was that Paul was leaving the next day -- according to the text itself.

==================

meanwhile - here is the actual Bible.

"the Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28.
Is 58:13 - the Sabbath "is the Holy Day of the LORD"
"The seventh day is the Sabbath of LORD thy God" Ex 20:10
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Isaiah 66:23

Indeed - in Rev 1 there is no "week day 1 is the Lord's Day"... But the NT reader does have these texts to guide them.

You are twisting the words of the Church.

There is a difference between "twisting" and merely "quoting" the words of the RCC - and we both know it. You are engaging in false accusation providing not a shred of evidence for it.

You know perfectly well that the Catholic church considers it perfectly okay for me to work on Saturday.

Bait-and-switch much??

Where do your accusative words about "you not working on Saturday" show up in my post? you know the post of mine you quoted and were supposedly responding to??

Details matter - especially when doing your false-accusation thing again.

 

[victorinus]

seventh day adventists should change their name so they can move on to more important things

 

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God:"

and how do we "show" love for God? 1 John 5:2-3 answers the question -
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Ephesians 6:2 tells us that the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that still-valid still-bindng-on-the-saints - Unit of Ten.

Revelation 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" -- contrasted with the mark of the beast in Revlation 14

Mark 7:6-13 Jesus Christ condemns all attempts to edit/delete/attack one of the TEN commandments - one of God's Commandments.

1 John 5:2-3 answers that question[/QUOTE]

seventh day adventists should change their name so they can move on to more important things

We are much more likely to continue to "stick with the Bible" rather than resort to emotional appeals to "move past the Bible" -- I am sure you will agree that this is the best course to follow.

==================== 1934


The Reply:

THE CATHOLIC EXTENSION MAGAZINE
180 Wabash Ave., Chicago, Illinois
(Under the Blessing of Pop Pius XI)

Dear sir:
...
(3) We also say that of all Protestants, the Seventh-day Adventists are
the only group that reason correctly and are consistent with their teachings. It is always somewhat laughable to see the Protestant Churches, in pulpit and legislature, demand the observance of Sunday of which there is nothing in the Bible.

With best wishes,
Peter R. Tramer, Editor

 

[Meowzltov]

when we talk to the Hindus they assure us - that they are not praying to the metal or the plastic of the image - but the one whom it represents.

Which is one step away from idolatry, but not the whole step, as they are still praying to a false deity. In the case of Catholicism, we are not praying to a deity at all, but asking fellow Christians to pray for us to the Father through Christ.

 

[Meowzltov]

Your own church says that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are applicable to Gentiles. (Including the Sabbath Commandment)

You are twisting the words of the Church. You know perfectly well that the Catholic church considers it perfectly okay for me to work on Saturday.

 

[BobRyan]

duplicate post - intended as edit not new post

 

[BobRyan]

Which is one step away from idolatry, but not the whole step, as they are still praying to a false deity. In the case of Catholicism, we are not praying to a deity at all, but asking fellow Christians to pray for us to the Father through Christ.

In the case of images of the baby Jesus - not praying to deity? I assumed for the benefit of the doubt - that you were.

In the case of Peter, Mary and Joseph - like the case where Hindus and Buddhists pray to ancestors -- not one of their canonized 3 million gods - just relatives in their case... just as your fellow Catholics say they also pray to their relatives/ancestors - but in the case of the images - in church - well those are special as you say.


Recall that the way we "Got here" is that you said this about the command not to take God's name in vain.

Open Heart said: ↑
This is irrelevant to my point. Blaspheming God's name is an act that is by definition an act of hatred (callous disregard at best)

God says Love is "defined" by keeping His Commandments in 1 John 5:2-3

-- so those who in ignorance break God's commandments are in a certain group. The one that Protestants put Catholics in when they bow down before and promise to serve the entities represented by images in church.

We both know that it is irrefutable that protestants do not approve of praying to the dead, praying to ancestors, making images and bowing down before them and promising to serve those they represent.

But Catholics do not view it the same way. So it is not a 'given' - better to just stick with the Commandments of God as HE gave them -- even your own church argues for the TEN as the moral law of God.

 

[Meowzltov]

In the case of images of the baby Jesus - not praying to deity? I assumed for the benefit of the doubt - that you were.

In the cases of the images of the Baby Jesus, are we not praying to the True God himself whom it represents? How can that be idolatry?

 

[Meowzltov]

Your own church says that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are applicable to Gentiles. (Including the Sabbath Commandment)

Did we not cover that point already?

Yes, you already replied to the exact same post, and I already answered. So why have you gone back and answered the same post again?

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, you already replied to the exact same post, and I already answered. So why have you gone back and answered the same post again?

I think that was intended as an edit to the prior post - deleted the duplicate.

Thanks.

 

[BobRyan]

In the cases of the images of the Baby Jesus, are we not praying to the True God himself whom it represents? How can that be idolatry?

In Ex 20 they are told not to make images of God - not of anything in heaven or on earth - to be used to pray to - bow down before - or worship.

So I certainly grant that praying to Jesus is praying to God - that was my point in bringing it up. But Aaron tries that out -- he says the image that he created is made on behalf of the god that brought them out of Egypt and the "good news" -- so he claims -- is now they can worship that god using an image in that worship.

 

[Meowzltov]

I think that was intended as an edit to the prior post - deleted the duplicate.

Thanks.

Oh don't worry. It happens to the best of us.

 

[Meowzltov]

So I certainly grant that praying to Jesus is praying to God - that was my point in bringing it up. But Aaron tries that out -- he says the image that he created is made on behalf of the god that brought them out of Egypt and the "good news" -- so he claims -- is now they can worship that god using an image in that worship.

The same way that they can pay homage to the Shekinah on the Mercy seat of the Ark despite the presence of two Cherub images. The same way they could gaze upon the serpent on the pole and be healed.

Yes, the command is not to worship the idols -- and that is what ancient man did; they believed in those days that the idol itself was imbued with supernatural powers, that it wasn't just symbolic of a deity. Today such intense idolatry is very rare. Most idolatry today is lukewarm, where the idols merely represent false gods.

In Catholicism, we are not worshipping images of stone and metal, nor are we worshipping false deities.

 

[BobRyan]

The same way that they can pay homage to the Shekinah on the Mercy seat of the Ark despite the presence of two Cherub images.

They do not bow down to the angels images or pray to angels they represent or promise to serve those Angels.

Your own "Catholic Digest' admits that this entire system of making images and praying to those they represent was something the OT saints were trying to wipe out. They did not have that system at all. That it is only in the NT time at the point that the RCC comes up with this - that now there has to be the care taken to be sure you are not praying to the wrong dead person.

For the hindus it is not the "dead in Christ" of 1Thess 4 that they pray to - but for Catholics - it is.

 

[bugkiller]

seventh day adventists should change their name so they can move on to more important things

That most likely would not change anything.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

This exchange was "on topic" -- with points brought up and responded to -

Today at 12:44 PM #464

I really like it when posts are on topic and deal with the actual subject.

If you want to talk about 'naming other denominations that are not your own' please feel free to start such a thread.

 

[BABerean2]

This is exchange was "on topic" -- with points brought up and responded to -

Today at 12:44 PM #464

I really like it when posts are on topic and deal with the actual subject.

If you want to talk about 'naming other denominations that are not your own' please feel free to start such a thread.