Why the Catholic Church changes the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday

[BobRyan]

God knew that some day kindling a fire would require a mere turning of a knob,

And he probably also knew that the same electricity that is used to warm the stove would be used to chill the fridge and to turn on the light bulb in the fridge.

I think we all agree on what God knew.

The question is the "definition" for "kindling a fire" as Moses would have intended for his readers.

you say some Jews suppose that "That means no electric current" but then use the fridge powered on all day and night on Sabbath. It is not at all clear that Moses had that in mind.

But they are free to imagine such a thing if they wish -- I am not trying to say otherwise - but you cannot reasonably expect their speculation and imagination in that regard to be law for the rest of us.

Instead he said if anyone questions what the judges (rabbis) rule, to take them outside the camp and kill them.

So then all the Christians should have been killed for not joining the religious leaders of their day and condemning Christ? In fact you too stand condemned by them because they do not approve of your acceptance of Christ even to this day.

And Christ should have been killed in Mark 7:6-13 when he condemned the Jewish rulers along with their traditions and commandments?

Really? you think Moses intended that? Or is it much more likely that Christ was right in Mark 7 about there being a limit to just how much stuff those guys are allowed to "make up".

So what are you doing questioning and kindling a flame by turning on your stove?

The thing about the refrigerator light comes from the rabbinical ruling by some rabbinical courts that electrical charges are fire, thus turning on a circuit is kindling a flame. That makes doing anything to turn on a light kindling a flame, including opening a refrigerator door if the light has not been unscrewed.

Now only SOME rabbinical courts have ruled that electricity is fire, thus you do what YOUR rabbinical authorities rule. When I was Orthodox I unscrewed my refrigerator light. Now I attend a Reform Synagogue (although I am inspired by Conservative halakhah) and I do not worry about electricity.

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry my friend, you were the one in post#428 that mentioned Is 66.

No need to feel sorrow over Isaiah 66.

So why do you carefully avoid Isaiah 66:23 given that I have already explained your "other text" to you - pointing out that if you were ever and SDA at all at one time in your life - you already knew the answer.

 

[Bob S]

No need to feel sorrow over Isaiah 66.

So why do you carefully avoid Isaiah 66:23 given that I have already explained your "other text" to you - pointing out that if you were ever and SDA at all at one time in your life - you already knew the answer.

If ever anyone on the SDA church even mentioned the remainder of the verses in Is 66 I am not aware. All I ever heard was the same as you always quote. The truth is, according to Isaiah, that not only will we meet with God on the Sabbath we will also go out and walk among dead bodies that have worms eating their flesh. If this is true then we ought to tell it like it is instead of only half of the truth. Maybe it is just as important on Sabbath to not only see God, but also to do the walk.

 

[Meowzltov]

They are both in the Ten Commandments

This is irrelevant to my point. Blaspheming God's name is an act that is by definition an act of hatred (callous disregard at best) towards God. On the other hand, Gentiles can and do mow the lawn on Saturday without hating God.

Let's review: You are trying to argue here that the Sabbath Day commandment applies to Gentiles as well as Jews because breaking the Sabbath violates the "Love God" commandment. IT DOESN"T.

 

[Meowzltov]

So then all the Christians should have been killed for not joining the religious leaders of their day and condemning Christ?

It was an illegally held court.

 

[Meowzltov]

And he probably also knew that the same electricity that is used to warm the stove would be used to chill the fridge and to turn on the light bulb in the fridge.

What is your point?????

 

[Meowzltov]

The question is the "definition" for "kindling a fire" as Moses would have intended for his readers.

Moses' definition of kindling was doing whatever it takes to get a flre going, same a today.

 

[Meowzltov]

you say some Jews suppose that "That means no electric current" but then use the fridge powered on all day and night on Sabbath. It is not at all clear that Moses had that in mind.

But they are free to imagine such a thing if they wish -- I am not trying to say otherwise - but you cannot reasonably expect their speculation and imagination in that regard to be law for the rest of us.

You don't seem to be following what I'm saying. Jewish law has nothing to do with you or other Gentile Christians, unless you VOLUNTARILY choose to take it on.

Not only are Gentiles not obligated to observe Shabbat, but it is written that if they observed it exactly as Jews do, that they would be impersonating Jews.

The important point that I made in my previous post is that God himself gave BINDING AUTHORITY to the judges (rabbis) to interpret law (Deuteronomy 17:8-13). Go neither to the right or to the left. If anyone questions the judges, kill them so that all Israel will be afraid. The rabbis had an obligation to determine whether (or not) electricity was a form of fire. That would make turning electricity on "kindling a flame."

I don't think you need to worry about electricity. I just find it hypocritical that you claim to keep shabbat and then turn on your stove. What about matches? Are matches okay? Where do you draw the line?



God: Do not kindle a flame on the Sabbath

SDA guy: I won't except the really easy flame on my stove.

God: Do not kindle a flame on the Sabbath.

SDA guy: Well, but the stove flame isn't really work you know.

God: Do NOT kindle a flame on the Sabbath.

SDA guy: But Lord, that's just so inconvenient...

 

[Meowzltov]

So what are you doing questioning and kindling a flame by turning on your stove?

I don't turn on my stove; I don't cook on Shabbat.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't turn on my stove; I don't cook on Shabbat.

you responded to you -- you're responding to my quote of you. I have moved it inside the quote box.

However if all of the obligation is transferred to Sunday - then what are you still "observing"? Do you have that same regard now for week-day-1?

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
you say some Jews suppose that "That means no electric current" but then use the fridge powered on all day and night on Sabbath. It is not at all clear that Moses had that in mind.

But they are free to imagine such a thing if they wish -- I am not trying to say otherwise - but you cannot reasonably expect their speculation and imagination in that regard to be law for the rest of us.

You don't seem to be following what I'm saying. Jewish law has nothing to do with you or other Gentile Christians

Then you can stop accusing me of not keeping the Bible Sabbath - when what you really mean is "whatever man-made-traditions and commands that non-Christian jewish Rabbis happen to make up".

I have never considered them to be Bible writers.

 

[BobRyan]

Moses' definition of kindling was doing whatever it takes to get a flre going, same a today.

So say your non-Christian orthodox rabbis - but then that means your fridge gets turned off on Friday evening when you start tossing electricity into the definition.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So say your non-Christian orthodox rabbis - but then that means your fridge gets turned off on Friday evening when you start tossing electricity into the definition.

I'll take the millennia-old wisdom of the Jewish sages and rabbis in regard to the understanding of Torah over the words of a 19th century false prophet.

That's an easy choice.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BobRyan]

This is irrelevant to my point. Blaspheming God's name is an act that is by definition an act of hatred (callous disregard at best)

God says Love is "defined" by keeping His Commandments in 1 John 5:2-3 -- so those who in ignorance break God's commandments are in a certain group. The one that Protestants put Catholics in when they bow down before and promise to serve the entities represented by images in church.

Even though the TEN Commandments say -

Ex 20:4-6
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

On the other hand, Catholics can and do make images place them in church - bow down before them and promise to serve those they represent - without hating God.

Let's review: You are trying to argue here that the Sabbath Day commandment applies to Gentiles as well as Jews

Sabbath Commandment? applies to Gentiles?

you mean the Sabbath Commandment that is one of the TEN Commandments affirmed even by the RCC as applicable to all mankind??? THAT Sabbath Commandment?

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
So say your non-Christian orthodox rabbis - but then that means your fridge gets turned off on Friday evening when you start tossing electricity into the definition.

I'll take the millennia-old wisdom of the Jewish sages and rabbis in regard to the understanding of Torah

And you welcomed to take all the non-Christian sources outside the Bible you wish.

I by contrast will stick with the Bible AND will stick with Christ's own condemnation of those sources in Mark 7:6-13.

Each one has free will.

"By their fruits you shall know them" Matthew 7.

That's an easy choice.

 

[ViaCrucis]

And you welcomed to take all the non-Christian sources outside the Bible you wish.

I by contrast will stick with the Bible

Ellen White isn't the Bible.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Bob S]

Ellen White isn't the Bible.

-CryptoLutheran

Amen my friend. If only those who believe ellen was a prophet would only study her writings instead of just giving lip service to them they would run from her as fast as their legs would carry them.

What is interesting about SDAs is that they do do lip service to her, but in reality most of what she wrote they fail to live by. She wrote that her angel gave her all that she wrote yet the flock ignores what she claimed was from God, figure that one out.

 

[Meowzltov]

However if all of the obligation is transferred to Sunday - then what are you still "observing"?

NOT ALL the obligation is moved to Sunday. The solemnity is moved.

 

[Meowzltov]

Then you can stop accusing me of not keeping the Bible Sabbath - when what you really mean is "whatever man-made-traditions and commands that non-Christian jewish Rabbis happen to make up".

I have never considered them to be Bible writers.

I'm saying you are not obligated to keep the Sabbath in the first place. However, if you choose to keep the Sabbath (and God bless you if you voluntarily take this on) I would THINK that you would at least follow the very basic scriptural outline, which includes not kindling a flame. That's not rabbinical law, that's SCRIPTURE.

 

[Meowzltov]

So say your non-Christian orthodox rabbis - but then that means your fridge gets turned off on Friday evening when you start tossing electricity into the definition.

That's right.

Listen, I was an Orthodox Jew for years. Sabbath was lovely, lovely. I actually miss it. There are weekends that I return to not flipping light switches or using electricity because there was just something uniquely restful about taking a break from technology. It's hard because I'm addicted to the internet. But apart from that, it makes for a very peaceful time. In fact, unplugging froom technology on Shabbat is becoming increasing popular even among the non-Orthodox. It's a blessing, not a burden. And it's even more of a joy when you have an entire community that observes it with you.

You are so focuses on what you would be giving up, that you never stop to think what you would be gaining. The truth is, the more you put in, the more you get out. I bet if you could spend just one Shabbat with an Orthodox Family, you would fall so in love with it that you would want it for your family every Sabbath.