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Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

Fred Manalo

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If you take Jesus' words as truth, you will see two possibilities for your soul: eternal life with God in the New Earth if you believe, or hell and death if you don't. If you choose to believe that there is no God and that the Scriptures are all man-made, how sure are you about it?

Please consider my parting advise:

If you truly desire to seek God for the purpose of saving yourself from possible condemnation, or better, to live eternally in the New Earth mentioned in the Bible, then you must seek him in the way he said he could be found:

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 KJV

And Jesus' invitation to you is:

"Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls." Matthew 11:29 KJV

May you find that rest,
Fred Manalo
 
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Athée

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Hi there, I notice this thread is too much for me to read back on, so I offer a response only to this post, for you :)

If you can picture the overall story of man vs God since the fall, and God's objective being to establish a kingdom of rulership on earth that has overcome sin so that earth prospers as the paradise He desires, we see a constant failure of mankind to submit to Him.

First, Eve wanted to own God's responsibility and power, to make decisions over His authority. The tower of Babel was to establish an illusion of representing God to the people. Jesus was publicly assassinated to covet God's kingdom, then the false teachers came among Christianity and perverted it's true message for their own selfish gain. Now we have a result of 2,000 years of apostate teaching, divisions, heresies, and unbridled, untaught lay persons speaking on matters presumptuously, almost always without prayer first, and often too, compromising the will of God to make their ministry more attractive for their target.

What God really needs is disciples of the truth, who are willing to question every belief they have, willing to rebuke and oppose those who are wrong in His name even if it is an intimidating assignment. This is essentially to lay down one's own life and take up his cross, to go where God leads him and obey His instruction. This is what baptism represents - death and burial of our own life, new life in and for Christ. But this is nowadays said as rhetoric, and everyone's speaking for their own purposes - they want a notch on their belt for every convert instead of healing a person's soul, they seek esteem, even applause, for speaking with eloquence. They want safety in numbers, to be comforted instead of corrected, to force a concession instead of finding agreement. This is why The Holy Spirit is not represented by the majority of voices - they really do not want to repent, they don't practise love thy neighbour, they take God's name for a vain purpose, and they don't even know what they are doing! (1 Timothy 1:5-7).

.. Seems like enough said :)

Here's some scriptures I am sure you will enjoy!

Philippians 2:19-21
2 Peter 2:1-3
Matthew 21:33-46
Jeremiah 23
Matthew 6:22-23
2 Thessalonians 2
Luke 19:12-15 (esp vs 14)
Romans 6:16
Revelation 2:26-29
Matthew 5:19
Matthew 25:12
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Matthew 7:21

Also, I recommend to you, to reinforce your understanding of the gospel: www.adonai-reigns.life/the-gospel
So for 2000 years god has been unable or unwilling to teach the truth to his people, preferring to allow their sinfulness to distort his message and convince most of the world that he doesn't exist. Why do you think God chose this path? Could he have chosen otherwise?
 
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Athée

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I'm curious, then. What do you think is the primary message of the Gospel?
First I would distinguish between a signal and a central message. The central message of Christianity is that a personal god exists and that we are made to glorify him, we need his help to do this but if we do good things (and some bad) will result, whereas if we don't bad things (and some good) will result. The problem is that this signal is indistinguishable in character from other religious signals that say much the same thing (although the specific details differ).
 
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Athée

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If you take Jesus' words as truth, you will see two possibilities for your soul: eternal life with God in the New Earth if you believe, or hell and death if you don't. If you choose to believe that there is no God and that the Scriptures are all man-made, how sure are you about it?

Please consider my parting advise:

If you truly desire to seek God for the purpose of saving yourself from possible condemnation, or better, to live eternally in the New Earth mentioned in the Bible, then you must seek him in the way he said he could be found:

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 KJV

And Jesus' invitation to you is:

"Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls." Matthew 11:29 KJV

May you find that rest,
Fred Manalo
This is not a debate forum so I will simply thank you for your input, point out that Pascal's wager is multiply flawed and wish you a happy new year :)
 
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Fred Manalo

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This is not a debate forum so I will simply thank you for your input, point out that Pascal's wager is multiply flawed and wish you a happy new year :)
Thanks, Happy New YEAR to you too. God bless!
 
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Resha Caner

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First I would distinguish between a signal and a central message.

I was just curious to see what you would say.

The problem is that this signal is indistinguishable in character from other religious signals that say much the same thing (although the specific details differ).

Pick someone else, then. A different religious figure or a musician, scientist, politician, businessman ... whatever. Can you give me an example of someone who has distinguished themselves?
 
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victorinus

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So you belive that God had to allow humans to distort his message so badly that most would not believe he exists and that even among those who do, there would be continual division and confusion?
to see who wanted God to exist
-and-
to see who just wanted to create confusion
 
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Athée

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I was just curious to see what you would say.



Pick someone else, then. A different religious figure or a musician, scientist, politician, businessman ... whatever. Can you give me an example of someone who has distinguished themselves?
Are you asking for someone who has had a distinguished life or someone who's existence has made detectable signal, distinguishable from non-existence?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.
In order to be able to believe [in agreement and life in Y'SHUA(JESUS)] what she believes [and lives] as a Christian, you first have to be born again. This is by YHWH'S doing/accomplishment.
One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit.
There's more conditions to knowing and experiencing the TRUTH, LIFE, Y'SHUA'S WAY . The main one is the same as just noted: You must be born again. Otherwise you can't know the truth. All of the other conditions, YHWH(GOD THE CREATOR of all) accomplishes as HE pleases if you are willing, after being born again.

If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
Think real hard about this, and consider this, dwell on it, and stay in prayer seeking YHWH'S KINGDOM:
Y'SHUA says that HE HIMSELF leads HIS SHEEP, and
that ALL of HIS SHEEP know HIS VOICE. HE does not stutter, nor does HE lie or deceive anyone, nor does HE contradict HIMSELF, ever, nor does HE mislead anyone, ever.

(and again; to be HIS SHEEP, you must be born again)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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So for 2000 years god has been unable or unwilling to teach the truth to his people, preferring to allow their sinfulness to distort his message and convince most of the world that he doesn't exist. Why do you think God chose this path? Could he have chosen otherwise?
Rather it is people who are unwilling to be saved by Y'SHUA.

Remember Y'SHUA'S lament over Jerusalem:
HE said that HE DESIRED TO GATHER all the children under HIS CARE, but they were not willing. That was the ONLY thing that prevented them from being saved/ born again/ HIS SHEEP.
 
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Resha Caner

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Are you asking for someone who has had a distinguished life or someone who's existence has made detectable signal, distinguishable from non-existence?

I was looking for something related to what you meant by the quote in post #468. It seems our discussion may be dividing into multiple threads, but feel free to answer only what you feel is most important.

You had said you don't feel the Christian message is different from other religious messages. So, originally I was curious what you think is necessary to distinguish one message from another, and examples are always helpful. The example doesn't have to be religious, though. If you think there is (e.g.) a political message that would serve as a good example, that's fine.

Second, regardless of whether you believe in the historicity of Jesus, surely you must realize that someone first penned the gospel of Matthew, etc. It didn't materialize from nowhere. So, what do you think is necessary to identify the historical source, i.e. the "signal" of past messages? Fair warning: In addition to my day job as an engineer, my hobby is history and I'm only a few hours from completing my M.A. However, I'm not interested in a technical answer. I'd like to know what would convince you.

Third, what is the "signal" that convinces you someone exists? Christians are claiming more than a past Jesus. They claim he is God, and that God lives today. So, what convinces you a being exists?
 
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Athée

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In order to be able to believe [in agreement and life in Y'SHUA(JESUS)] what she believes [and lives] as a Christian, you first have to be born again. This is by YHWH'S doing/accomplishment.
There's more conditions to knowing and experiencing the TRUTH, LIFE, Y'SHUA'S WAY . The main one is the same as just noted: You must be born again. Otherwise you can't know the truth. All of the other conditions, YHWH(GOD THE CREATOR of all) accomplishes as HE pleases if you are willing, after being born again.


Think real hard about this, and consider this, dwell on it, and stay in prayer seeking YHWH'S KINGDOM:
Y'SHUA says that HE HIMSELF leads HIS SHEEP, and
that ALL of HIS SHEEP know HIS VOICE. HE does not stutter, nor does HE lie or deceive anyone, nor does HE contradict HIMSELF, ever, nor does HE mislead anyone, ever.

(and again; to be HIS SHEEP, you must be born again)
A few things that I would press you on there but since this is a non debate forum I will just say that you seem to be in the majority camp that lays this at the feet of sinful humans.
 
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Athée

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I was looking for something related to what you meant by the quote in post #468. It seems our discussion may be dividing into multiple threads, but feel free to answer only what you feel is most important.

You had said you don't feel the Christian message is different from other religious messages. So, originally I was curious what you think is necessary to distinguish one message from another, and examples are always helpful. The example doesn't have to be religious, though. If you think there is (e.g.) a political message that would serve as a good example, that's fine.

Second, regardless of whether you believe in the historicity of Jesus, surely you must realize that someone first penned the gospel of Matthew, etc. It didn't materialize from nowhere. So, what do you think is necessary to identify the historical source, i.e. the "signal" of past messages? Fair warning: In addition to my day job as an engineer, my hobby is history and I'm only a few hours from completing my M.A. However, I'm not interested in a technical answer. I'd like to know what would convince you.

Third, what is the "signal" that convinces you someone exists? Christians are claiming more than a past Jesus. They claim he is God, and that God lives today. So, what convinces you a being exists?
Great questions and congrats on the MA. I am happy to be done my own and see my family again on a regular basis :)

First, I would say that the religious messages of Hinduism and Christianity are different enough in their perspectives to constitute different signals, whereas the Abrahamic traditions would not. That said, the distinction between doctrines and worldviews want really what I was getting at. I was trying to say that from my perspective neither has a compelling god signal. To me it just seems like there is no God behind any of the religious perspectives I have come across.
As for historical sources, I of course agree that someone wrote these things down, although in some cases we can be pretty confident that our received versions have been edited by later authors as well. Again though nothing in the text itself suggests to me that a god was involved in their creation. Certainly if we accept as fact the things they recount that would be different but it seems to me that the Bible is the claim rather than the evidence for the claim.
Finally, this last question was what I was getting at. There seems to be a suspicious lack of anything divine in Christianity. If I were to ask myself if my wife existed I could make a pretty compelling case, not philosophically air tight but pretty convincing. I can talk and hear her audibly, other people can hear her as well and hear the same thing I do, I can touch her, I can observe the changes she makes in my reality etc. There just doesn't seem to be anything comparable for this relational god of the universe which is odd.
 
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Resha Caner

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Finally, this last question was what I was getting at. There seems to be a suspicious lack of anything divine in Christianity.

The other questions might make for an interesting thread, but I'll just respond to the last one, since that is your focus. First of all, I'm not sure what the word "divine" even means to an atheist, so I don't know what you would be expecting. I don't see why a physicalist would ever expect to experience anything immaterial, why a rationalist would suddenly find knowledge apart from reason, etc. I'm not saying they can't change their mind, but I don't see why it's something they would be looking for because it seems in their world view they wouldn't even know what to look for. Rather, it seems it would take a shock to their world view to change their mind.

Further, attempts to define "divine" are much too susceptible to one's own preferences, and so it seems one would be prone to rejecting a powerful being simply because it wasn't what one wanted it to be. Years ago when I had to undergo cancer treatments, the doctor sat me down and told me what he could do and what he couldn't do. It would have been silly for me to say, "Since you can't do X that means you're not a doctor." It would have been a presumption that I knew more than him - that I was the doctor.

I'm trying to say I don't see the point in expecting Jesus to be something he's not. Don't approach him expecting him to be something. Rather, approach him wanting to get to know him.

If I were to ask myself if my wife existed I could make a pretty compelling case, not philosophically air tight but pretty convincing. I can talk and hear her audibly, other people can hear her as well and hear the same thing I do, I can touch her, I can observe the changes she makes in my reality etc. There just doesn't seem to be anything comparable for this relational god of the universe which is odd.

All the things you've mentioned are experienced during hallucinations as well. That is always the problem when explanation 1 is used for experience A and explanation 2 is used for experience B if they can be easily transposed.

Still, it seems to me the essence of what you're saying is that you believe your wife exists because you personally experienced her existence. She directly affected your senses. That is indeed convincing. But I doubt you have personally met everyone you believe to exist. Whether it's Donald Trump or Kim Kardashian, I imagine there is someone whom you have not met, yet you believe they exist. So, I will suggest trust is also a factor - the degree to which you trust the media by which you receive the claim of their existence.

You are a male human; you have encountered male humaness; it is logical to accept the existence of other male humans. You have a wife; you have encountered female humans; it is logical to accept the existence of other female humans. You have encountered tables, chairs, dogs, flies, hamburgers, etc. You have felt love, sadness, anger, joy, etc.

The hardest thing to accept is that which is most foreign to us.
 
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Serving Zion

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So for 2000 years god has been unable or unwilling to teach the truth to his people, preferring to allow their sinfulness to distort his message and convince most of the world that he doesn't exist.
This is technically and partially correct, in a way, but not in the way that it might seem. So I feel I need to add clarity first, in order to give useful answers to the questions below.

Your statement suggests that because the majority of people who have entered into the Christian religion have not followed the discipline of Jesus Christ, that God must be unable or unwilling to teach the truth to them. There is another, more accurate explanation though, as 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 and Galatians 1:8-9 show that only the ones who love truth and hate unrighteousness will find salvation in Christianity. We gain more insight too, from Jesus' words in John 10:4-5, Luke 13:24, Matthew 7:13, Matthew 18:8 and John 12:25.

For truth's sake, we must recognise that a vast majority of people who enter into the Christian religion (for whatever reason draws them), are not ultimately of the nature to love the truth over and above their own desires - therefore, they can not present their self entirely for loyal service to God. These are those of the parable of the sower in Matthew 13, which are shallow-rooted and quickly led astray by various trials and temptations that life brings.

Jesus said: "A new command I give to you, that you love one another. This is how all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another". Now consider 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, especially "love is not self-seeking, it is always kind to others".

I am sure you will have noticed in your own pursuit of Christian knowledge, that some people are addressing you for your sake, and others are addressing you for their own sake. Yet, of those who are adhering to the discipline of Christ, (namely, to serve), even we must inevitably have some lack in our doctrines and knowledge. This is just a natural result of our limited nature and disadvantaged beginning point, where we have all been born into a world that is polluted by 2,000 years of false teaching and the sinful actions of so-called Christians. It just naturally takes time for a person to grow into who we are becoming. It is a daily growth too, beginning from an initial point of repentance - the moment that we first came to realise and accept, that we have had it all wrong!

Even still, despite the many difficulties and persecutions faced by His loyal servants, they have been steadfast to the campaign, even martyred if need be, for the cause of the knowledge of truth that they had. (William Tyndale & Martin Luther are very famous, world-changing examples of recent history). Jesus tells in Matthew 10:26, that all secrets shall become known because we share with others what He shares with us.

The Christian campaign really does require a united effort, seeing as we all have received a portion of grace, according to the measure of Messiah given to us (Ephesians 4:7-13). The true disciples of Christ are not gossipers and conspirators, we don't get together and form a special exclusive club or an organised cult to achieve specific objectives; instead we recognise each other as honest men of integrity, having right relationship with God, as we encounter The Holy Spirit in each other - wherever our paths happen to cross. We live an innocent, meek sort of life, simply doing whatever it is that we do. In this way, it is God who is the architect of what we achieve in His name, with what we do. We can only be useful servants if we remain obedient to Him (Romans 6:16), but therein exists the unity of the Christian campaign (Luke 15:4).

(Hence, a vast majority of so-called Christians choose to not live obediently, and the harm they do, is done in His name - Jude 1:19, Deuteronomy 5:11).
Why do you think God chose this path?
John 4:23 and Matthew 8:10. At the time, when Jesus had performed a powerful ministry without fault, and had yet been unable to bring the lost sheep of The House of Israel to recognise the true nature of YHWH (John 14:7, John 8:37-47), then this was the only way that God could achieve the true and final success of Zion through love, without compromising His righteousness (Matthew 26:52-53, Luke 21:24).

Have a think in this regard, that the covenant for the Kingdom of God established via Moses, could no longer be sustained by the Jewish religious leaders, because they had claimed authority to shed the righteous blood of Jesus, who was innocent, in the name of YHWH.
Could he have chosen otherwise?
I expect, probably not. Otherwise, why else would The Father have chosen to not grant Jesus' request at Mark 14:36? (1 John 4:8). Remember that mankind makes decisions too, and that Israel is named Israel, because Jacob wrestled with God and prevailed (Genesis 32:28).

If you would like to better understand what has been achieved by Jesus' sacrifice, you can consider what the following scriptures convey in context of us being appointed in His name, to be His representatives on earth (1 Peter 2:9):

Luke 21:22, Luke 12:49, 1 Peter 3:22, 1 John 2:1, 2 Timothy 1:7.
 
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Athée

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The other questions might make for an interesting thread, but I'll just respond to the last one, since that is your focus. First of all, I'm not sure what the word "divine" even means to an atheist, so I don't know what you would be expecting. I don't see why a physicalist would ever expect to experience anything immaterial, why a rationalist would suddenly find knowledge apart from reason, etc. I'm not saying they can't change their mind, but I don't see why it's something they would be looking for because it seems in their world view they wouldn't even know what to look for. Rather, it seems it would take a shock to their world view to change their mind.

Further, attempts to define "divine" are much too susceptible to one's own preferences, and so it seems one would be prone to rejecting a powerful being simply because it wasn't what one wanted it to be. Years ago when I had to undergo cancer treatments, the doctor sat me down and told me what he could do and what he couldn't do. It would have been silly for me to say, "Since you can't do X that means you're not a doctor." It would have been a presumption that I knew more than him - that I was the doctor.

I'm trying to say I don't see the point in expecting Jesus to be something he's not. Don't approach him expecting him to be something. Rather, approach him wanting to get to know him.



All the things you've mentioned are experienced during hallucinations as well. That is always the problem when explanation 1 is used for experience A and explanation 2 is used for experience B if they can be easily transposed.

Still, it seems to me the essence of what you're saying is that you believe your wife exists because you personally experienced her existence. She directly affected your senses. That is indeed convincing. But I doubt you have personally met everyone you believe to exist. Whether it's Donald Trump or Kim Kardashian, I imagine there is someone whom you have not met, yet you believe they exist. So, I will suggest trust is also a factor - the degree to which you trust the media by which you receive the claim of their existence.

You are a male human; you have encountered male humaness; it is logical to accept the existence of other male humans. You have a wife; you have encountered female humans; it is logical to accept the existence of other female humans. You have encountered tables, chairs, dogs, flies, hamburgers, etc. You have felt love, sadness, anger, joy, etc.

The hardest thing to accept is that which is most foreign to us.
Great response as usual :) On the first bit I just take whatever definition of deity the Christian gives me and work from there so that we can have a meaningful discussion.
As for hallucination I agree which is why I added the caveat that I can't prove my wife's existence in a philosophical sense. I can't solve solipsism and I am unaware that anyone else has either. That said I can make a pretty compelling case if we agree that the reality I seem to experience is in fact real and shared. I also agree that I belive that people I haven't met exist. I belive it with less confidence to be sure but am convinced that the proposition that they exist is true or likely true. If there were similar evidence for the god claim that there is for Trump (I belive that was one of your examples) then I would be a believer today, unfortunately despite this god being described as an alive, active, communicating deity this has so far seemed not to be the case in my experience.
 
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Resha Caner

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... unfortunately despite this god being described as an alive, active, communicating deity this has so far seemed not to be the case in my experience.

Possibly, though I don't know much about your past experiences. I could say that it might mean you have a shock coming in your future (as I mentioned earlier), but even that may not convince you. Another atheist here at CF once shared something (publicly) that goes far beyond any experience I've ever had. He seemed sincere and indicated he believed it to be a real experience, not a hallucination. Even then, he remained an atheist. That confuses me to no end. People are sometimes stubborn beyond all explanation. Or, who knows, maybe he was lying ...

Anyway, even if you were to say what would convince you, I'm not sure it would. Though I believe God comes to us continually through Word and Sacrament, I'm not claiming I can do anything to convince you.

But, I'll be here as long as the conversation continues. So, what do you think constitutes a "being"? For example, for me a being is able to communicate. It may be very simple, like the way my dog bumps me with her nose when she wants attention, but a being can communicate in some way. As such, I'm not sure I would consider bacteria as beings. I'm not aware of any communication from them ... and it may be simply that - I'm not aware (just as you may not be aware of God), but nonetheless at this point I wouldn't consider them beings. To further clarify, I'm speaking of communication as more than a sensory reaction.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Great response as usual :) On the first bit I just take whatever definition of deity the Christian gives me and work from there so that we can have a meaningful discussion.
As for hallucination I agree which is why I added the caveat that I can't prove my wife's existence in a philosophical sense. I can't solve solipsism and I am unaware that anyone else has either. That said I can make a pretty compelling case if we agree that the reality I seem to experience is in fact real and shared. I also agree that I belive that people I haven't met exist. I belive it with less confidence to be sure but am convinced that the proposition that they exist is true or likely true. If there were similar evidence for the god claim that there is for Trump (I belive that was one of your examples) then I would be a believer today, unfortunately despite this god being described as an alive, active, communicating deity this has so far seemed not to be the case in my experience.

On the solipsism "thing," we might want to differentiate between those individuals who are willing to look at as much theory and data as possible in an ongoing manner in their lifetime and those who refuse to do so (maybe because they are, shall we say, "selective.") Even then, I'm thinking that our categorizing of someone else as "solipsistic" should probably be done with hesitancy since no two persons will ever really have identical perceptions and conceptions about the world, and by that, I mean on a macro level. (Sure, on a micro level, we can usually all agree that the Sun rises in the East, and that 2+2=4. But, that kind of agreement doesn't necessarily show that we're all necessarily living in the same mental worlds and that we should all be able to deduce things out like clones.)

By the way, where's Descartes, so I can slap him? o_O And maybe I'll slap Kant, too, while I'm at it. Or, maybe not.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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